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Old 06-21-2010, 09:01 PM   #126
Yo Yo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rexruther View Post
good write up but where can i get superbuttseks increditanium lines?
Right here....

Alot of needing or wanting new brakes comes with the condition of the car. If you bought it used and don't know that the brakes have been drivin off, you will probably be one to say that you prefer brake upgrades. Just another variable to throw in the mix. I bought slotted and cross drilled rotors and ceramic pads for mine. 07 WRX and I think it was a good purchase. Now I didn't spend an a load of money either. Got them from a wholesale vender off of ebay and they ran me under 200 bones for the whole set. (4) pads, (4) rotors. All Powerstop (kinetic motorsports). No complaints, they work great and keep working great every day. If anybody is interested, pm me and I can give you the link. Also, if you want to take a look at what they are on the car here is a link to see for yourself.

http://www.mysubie.com/vehicle?id=4323

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Old 06-24-2010, 06:16 PM   #127
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Dave for president.


...vice president. Uncle Scotty for President.
Sorry, Dave.
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Old 06-24-2010, 06:18 PM   #128
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TiredGXP View Post
Well, this used to be a good thread before the pissing match broke out.

I think the OP made some good points.

Are there situations where upgraded brakes are required? Yes.

Will some people spend the money to upgrade brakes even where it's not really required? Yes.

Should anyone else care? Probably not, it's their money.
done in one.
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Old 06-24-2010, 10:33 PM   #129
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Good info OP, thanks for sharing. I'm glad I never wasted any money on brake stuffs. Blank rotors and Autozone pads ftw.
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Old 06-25-2010, 02:55 AM   #130
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+1 good post dave, however I think it deserves more posts lol
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Old 06-27-2010, 04:57 PM   #131
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Sorry, I know this is performance car related, but it is part of a theoretical conversation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Noek View Post
this is mostly true for class A vehicles equipped with air brakes. I'm not sure this is as detrimental in hydraulic brakes as it is in air brakes. For hydraulic or mechanical, I was always under the impression that you get better braking by lightening up the vehicle whereas the opposite is true for air.
What Deserted1 is talking about, I believe, is locking tires up (I haul potatoes and grain with semis). The brakes on an 18 wheeler are designed to bring very heavy loads to a stop. The brakes have a ton of bite and will lock all the tires up very easily when empty. The situation becomes even more difficult when road conditions become slick. It has everything to do with weight and footprint.

Friction to the ground is the most important thing for stopping. Tires, tires tires.
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Old 06-29-2010, 12:08 AM   #132
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For the street stock brakes will do. If you track a WRX with the iron floating caliper you will have big problems with brake fade/falure. OR are you a guy who likes to pay for a track day so you can go slow. A track day is floored and shift and floor it until the last possible moment and stand on the brakes like you are doing leg squats in a gym, and then floor it again. Stock brakes are fine for one hard 130 mph braking event down to 30 mph. If you floor it back to 130 and try this again you WILL have fade.
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Old 06-29-2010, 03:17 AM   #133
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Quote:
Originally Posted by newclutch View Post
A track day is floored and shift and floor it until the last possible moment and stand on the brakes like you are doing leg squats in a gym, and then floor it again.

While I vehemently disagree with this interpretation of performance driving, I agree that stock WRX brakes are only good for one high speed stop before they heat soak.
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Old 06-29-2010, 09:34 AM   #134
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The whole argument is based on semantics.

I've owned an 02, and 03, so that is what I am going to talk about.

Of course tires are the limiting factor, but who doesn't have bigger/better wheels or tires if they are even considering a brake upgrade, or have the "400whp" cited in the first post?

Of course stock brakes work, ONCE. Have fun driving hard for bit, and then trying to stop the car. If you are talking SOLELY about a single stop emergency event, then yes the stock brakes will suffice. If you want to talk about 2 or more hard stops, in succession (which most people will be doing), then the stock brake argument turns to crap.

Larger brakes also have the benefit of not requiring as much pedal pressure to get the same power applied. Yes, it is possible to lock up a stock setup, but if I can get the same clamp force with 1/2 the pedal pressure, then I don't have to work so hard to drive the car hard, which I personally enjoy.

I have a stoptech kit and I can brake from 125mph to nearly stopped w/o brake fade. Then I can do it again...and again...and again... I don't know how you can tell me that stock 02-05 WRX brakes are just as good since I owned them and there was no way in hell I could do that. I also enjoy the reduced amount of pedal pressure to get the same effect. I can barely touch the pedal and bring the car down from normal road speeds.

I've owned both. Tell me why I'm wrong.
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Old 06-29-2010, 02:43 PM   #135
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Quote:
Originally Posted by williaty View Post
Sigh... this will all end in tears.


The OP oversimplified the problem. He neglected to explain that brakes have a fixed rate at which they can dissipate thermal energy. Adding more power to the engine gives you the ability to ask the braking system to dissipate the same thermal energy in a shorter time because you can ask them to stop a second (or 3rd, 4th, etc) time much sooner. Think about it this way, you can rip off 10 0-60-0mph speed runs in a much shorter time with 300hp than you can with 30hp. That drives your braking system up to a much higher temperature. Hell, you can feel this dramatically if you go out to bed new brakes in an RS vs WRX.

The OP is absolutely right, you don't upgrade the brakes when you make more power to stop in a shorter distance. You don't upgrade the brakes when you make more power to make sure you can still stop from 130mph when a deer runs into the road. The OP misses, however, that you upgrade the brakes when you make more power so that, after 30 minutes of yo-yoing between 20 and 70mph when you and your buddies go play in the hills, you stop at all.


Now, I also think the point that we should encourage people who add weight to their cars (stereos, whatever) to upgrade their brakes (again, for thermal reasons) is a damned good one.


I DID absolutely oversimplify it. I agree there. But for a reason . Often times things get explained in SO MUCH detail, with such an eye on technical specs and such, that people just don't understand it, and worse, often misunderstand it.
I also tried to aim it at the average driver, who while driving aggressively, most likely will never see track time.


I also think (I didn't go back and re-read my post) that I covered (or at least sort of spoke about) fade and brake upgrades. But again, for the people I was aiming at, fade will never be an issue.
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Old 06-29-2010, 02:46 PM   #136
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CKxx View Post
The whole argument is based on semantics.

I've owned an 02, and 03, so that is what I am going to talk about.

Of course tires are the limiting factor, but who doesn't have bigger/better wheels or tires if they are even considering a brake upgrade, or have the "400whp" cited in the first post?

Of course stock brakes work, ONCE. Have fun driving hard for bit, and then trying to stop the car. If you are talking SOLELY about a single stop emergency event, then yes the stock brakes will suffice. If you want to talk about 2 or more hard stops, in succession (which most people will be doing), then the stock brake argument turns to crap.

Larger brakes also have the benefit of not requiring as much pedal pressure to get the same power applied. Yes, it is possible to lock up a stock setup, but if I can get the same clamp force with 1/2 the pedal pressure, then I don't have to work so hard to drive the car hard, which I personally enjoy.

I have a stoptech kit and I can brake from 125mph to nearly stopped w/o brake fade. Then I can do it again...and again...and again... I don't know how you can tell me that stock 02-05 WRX brakes are just as good since I owned them and there was no way in hell I could do that. I also enjoy the reduced amount of pedal pressure to get the same effect. I can barely touch the pedal and bring the car down from normal road speeds.

I've owned both. Tell me why I'm wrong.


I think you are SEMI wrong. And semi right.


Mainly I think you are grossly overestimating the average sibie drivers skill, and use. Trust me what YOU are doing with your car (or what I get from this post that you do) is far from what the average guy that you see at your local weekly subaru meet is doing.
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Old 06-29-2010, 06:32 PM   #137
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i like going fast UP hill in the twisties. this gives me plenny o stopping power (and confidence) on my stocker bug wrx while fun under boost and lateral grip. going fast down hill (and dogging out the brakes) is not fun nor a good idea. Brakes: don't trust em. have fun!
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Old 06-29-2010, 06:36 PM   #138
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Default good post

thanks for the info
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Old 07-10-2010, 12:30 PM   #139
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a lot of people buy steel braided brake lines, for status, and looks. This does not make them useless. They are more durable, and have a much longer life, and don't fail. Older rubber hosed brakes, can give you a spongy brake pedal due to expansion and contraction of the brake hose when applying pressure through the brake pedal,through the master cylinder, this is more of a factor when things heat up. You talk a lot about "precise brake control" and steel braided hoses are a part of this formula, espescially, for high performance, or hard driving. I myself do NOT have steel braided hoses, as for the type of driving I do, they are not needed. Look any of one of the most highest performance machines, on the track, a professional racing motorcycle, they all have stee braided brake lines. There's a reason for that, and it isn't looks.
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Old 07-10-2010, 12:57 PM   #140
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"BUT MY BUDDY PUT BREMBOS ON HIS WRX WITH WTFBBQ ALLOY PADS, SUPERBUTTSEKS INCREDITAINIUM LINES AND CHUCK NORRIS BRAND FLUID AND IT STOPS WAY HARDER."

HAHAHAHAHA

thanks for the write up.

Yeah, I put on ss brake lines for consistant pedal feel. Relatively cheap mod and easy to install, feels nice in the canyons. To me it was worth the money.
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Old 07-10-2010, 02:42 PM   #141
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This is a pretty good thread, but one thing everyone has missed is suspension wear. Your breaking distance is DIRECTLY related to how operational your front suspension is. If you have blown front struts it is going to take you drastically more distance to stop then if you had new coil overs, regardless of tire or brake condition.

Another huge factor is condensation. Once condensation enters the braking system it lowers the boiling point and increases copper content in the system through corrosion. If you have black brake fluid you need to change it. It is a nice difference to feel fresh fluid vs. contaminated fluid.

I have always felt that setting the engine aside, the way the rest of a car performs is a balance between the tires, brakes and suspension. One will not perform much better then the other if everything else remains stock.

Like Dave, I have a lot of practical experience turning a wrench...lots. And like many of you, I cannot afford to just go out and buy $876298734 worth of modes at once. Sometimes I feel disappointed with a mod...until I upgrade something else that compliments the previous mod. It is only then I see a lot of the benifits from performing a "mod".

My wagon brakes have been upgraded to the 4/2 pot calipers and rotors. I feel it is one of the best mods I have ever done. Brake fade is way less then the OEM single pot front and solid rotor rear. I have SS lines, but also only use dot4 valvoline syn fluid at $5 a bottle. I have yet to boil the fluid and am very happy with the way my brakes perform. And to not save face, I like the way it looks too, which honestly was one of the reasons I upgraded them.
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Old 07-12-2010, 10:22 PM   #142
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god among men
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Old 07-13-2010, 03:27 PM   #143
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ronlocus View Post
a lot of people buy steel braided brake lines, for status, and looks. This does not make them useless. They are more durable, and have a much longer life, and don't fail. Older rubber hosed brakes, can give you a spongy brake pedal due to expansion and contraction of the brake hose when applying pressure through the brake pedal,through the master cylinder, this is more of a factor when things heat up. You talk a lot about "precise brake control" and steel braided hoses are a part of this formula, espescially, for high performance, or hard driving. I myself do NOT have steel braided hoses, as for the type of driving I do, they are not needed. Look any of one of the most highest performance machines, on the track, a professional racing motorcycle, they all have stee braided brake lines. There's a reason for that, and it isn't looks.
Yes they can and do fail. They are more durable, but they can and have failed.
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Old 07-29-2010, 01:08 AM   #144
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Great post!
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Old 07-29-2010, 01:18 AM   #145
scoobiedude 66
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very informational i like it for a change
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Old 07-29-2010, 01:33 PM   #146
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good shi t
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Old 07-29-2010, 01:52 PM   #147
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For a street car I couldn't agree more...

For a track car (The kind that turns left AND right) not so much.
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Old 07-30-2010, 08:44 PM   #148
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t's a long tread and i read only first post
please forgive me if some one said that already but i'm gonna share my experience
back ... oh hell, quite a few years ago i participated in that rally and
one of the special stages was down the mountain 15 kms long and had -
over 300 turns, all tarmac!
at the finish car simply wouldn't slow down no matter how hard u hit the brakes
after finish i jumped out of the car to take a look at my brakes
and here's picture - rotors were not just red because of the high temp,
but rather white and sparks were flying
i've never seen anything like that before or after
now what did say again? - stock brakes do same job as big brembo's?
yeah, it's true, bot only if u got to stop once on the road!
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Old 07-31-2010, 12:14 AM   #149
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wrx owner here - subie noob but...

former 350z owner. 350z had OEM 2piston front and 1piston rear brakes. Some Zs came with OEM Brembo's which look like the hotness, much like an STI's do. I got one that had OEM non brembo brakes and soon found myself oogling a BBK green with envy of the BBK guys. I chose a Wilwood 6pot front 4pot rear with 14 inch and 13 inch rotors respectively. I thought how dope my brakes were and how much better than OEM they must be despite reading plenty about how for most applications (aside from some serious track driving), they didn't make a lot of difference.

I later sold the car and removed the brakes, replacing them again with my OEM brakes for the sale. This is where my awakening came.

The stock brakes performed every bit as well as the BBK for what I used them for. Crestfallen? Yes.

Did many test stops with my 350z and a friends 350z with and without BBK. No change. Didn't wanna believe it til I found it out for myself.

None of this research being particularly scientific, however, now that I have the WRX with "regular" brakes, which I couldnt be happier with, I did learn one lesson.

If I have 4000 bucks to drop on this car, I will spread it out among several mods, the expense of the BBK imo just did not justify the performance value gained. It looked sweet. And ended there for me. My Z stopped fine, and so does my WRX on the OEM brakes.

I'm not a big track guy, but I would definitely classify myself as a driving enthusiast, and would have benefited much more in spending the money on some high end tires, then chosen several mods. I felt/feel like I would have had more fun (which is what modding is about for me) if I would have spread my money out and been able to do several medium mods. I think that some suspension work and better tires would have provided just as much if not more satisfaction/noticeability while overtaking the plentiful twisties and backroads in my area.

In the end the BBK turned out 100% cosmetic for me and it looked incredible, I understand fully the track application of BBK. But speaking from experience, if you are and average enthusiast/spirited driver. Theres a whole lot you can do with 4000 bucks that will not only improve stopping performace but also appearance.

Loved the Original Post and couldn't agree more. Given the opportunity I probably wouldn't select a BBK before doing a lot of other things though I'm sure that after a certain point in modding my car, a BBK will again make its way onto my list. Cause we all know, at the very least, they look amazing. Just one opinion here among many.

Last edited by NewBoost; 07-31-2010 at 12:20 AM.
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Old 08-01-2010, 07:22 AM   #150
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This is a great post, I was one of the numbskulls who thought that the brakes did the stopping. You may have saved me a few bucks down the road. Thanks for the post.
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