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Old 08-01-2010, 12:26 PM   #151
Davenow
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Dont get me wrong, there are some very legit reasons for someone that doesnt NEED the larger brakes (IE someone who doesn't track the car or drive it hard enough to fade them)

If you like the look, IMO, visual mods are NOT something that people should write off. I know I get a hell of a lot more pleasure out of driving a car that looks badass than I do one that looks like a garbage can. (although make it fast please ) If you get that out of breath OMG feeling when you see a HUGE brembo/stoptech/whatever caliper, go for it.

There is also the benefit of how nice the pedal feels. Note, this does NOT mean it stops faster, it just feels a lot more "performance" oriented, which makes the car nicer to drive, which again, is not a bad thing.

But yeah, stopping distance in non heat soak faded situations, is 100% traction limited. Properly adjusted drum brakes will stop just as fast.

As for the 350Z guy above me a couple posts, its funny, some 19s with a HUGE lip, a nice drop and a HUGE bbk would be some of the first mods I would do. That and an intake/catback to get that glorious sound out of the car. I would LOVE one for a daily driver. I would put a nice stereo in it, sound deaden the hell out of it and make sure the AC blew ice cold. I may even get an automatic
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Old 08-01-2010, 04:19 PM   #152
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"As for the 350Z guy above me a couple posts, its funny, some 19s with a HUGE lip, a nice drop and a HUGE bbk would be some of the first mods I would do. That and an intake/catback to get that glorious sound out of the car. I would LOVE one for a daily driver. I would put a nice stereo in it, sound deaden the hell out of it and make sure the AC blew ice cold. I may even get an automatic "

Haha, sounds like my car... though I had 18's and a manual...

Nothin but love for the 350z, though, sound deadening... you are absolutely right, at highway speed the car sounded like the cockpit of an f-16.

It was my daily, and it was great, eventually racked up a ton of miles and a transmission problem to boot. was sad to part with it.

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Old 08-08-2010, 04:03 PM   #153
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Great post... I have told my friends this for years. If you want better brakes just upgrade to some nice pads like hawk or EBC
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Old 08-08-2010, 09:07 PM   #154
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all the speed in the world is useless if you can't bring it to a stop in a safe and controled manner when you need to. thanks for the great FAQ
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Old 08-10-2010, 12:51 PM   #155
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Excellent write up. I still have stock brakes on my bugeye. I track my car at least once a month. At my first event, I fried my cheap brake pads (front) and boiled my DOT 3 fluid. I went to the auto parts store and bought Hawk HP+ (stock fitment) and no more brake fade and boiling fluid. I did notice a difference in brake feel, but that was due to different pads. I did notice my ABS was kicking in a little bit after the new pads were installed.After that event, I changed over to ATE Blue just for cheap insurance (it's about $20/litre and .5 litre will do a complete flush on a bugeye) and I upgraded from BFG G Force Sports(235/45R17 on 17x8s) to Dunlop Direzza Z1 Star Specs(245/40R17 on 17x9s) and I have noticed a HUGE difference in braking performance(mainly due to the different tires) and I did NOT feel the ABS kick in this past weekend at Road Atlanta. I will, however, be upgrading my brakes in the near future simply to avoid any brake fade in the future.

Again, there is definitely some good info here.

Last edited by Cooper76; 08-10-2010 at 12:57 PM.
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Old 08-10-2010, 05:39 PM   #156
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Yeah i still run with my stock brembos and they work just fine. i do need to get my hands on some new tires though.. >.<
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Old 08-15-2010, 01:21 AM   #157
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Davenow View Post
Finally, lets look at the group-N STI rally cars. What brakes do they run?

That's right, not the Brembos. They run the older FHI 4 pot/2 pot setup in order to clear the smaller rally wheels. Yet they stop JUST FINE.
I think this part, at the very least, should be removed from the sticky part. It seems a bit misleading to support your 'big brakes are just for show' theory.

There are rules, fitment and surface issues here.

Opposite to a restricted group N car, what about these?



An Alcon 6 pot water-cooled caliper with 366mm x 32mm slotted disc. Just for show? http://www.subaruwrcspares.com/2.html

Secondly a lot of BBK offer aluminum center hats, and forged or billet aluminum calipers. Both reduce unsprung mass, and one reduces rotational mass also. This can improve overall handling and braking.
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Old 08-16-2010, 05:55 AM   #158
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Old 08-18-2010, 04:01 AM   #159
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At the Track Brakes?

Huh interesting. PBJ TIME....
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Old 09-04-2010, 04:56 PM   #160
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Default pad / rotor life

Good post.

But how about pad and rotor life under canyon driving conditions.
I drive highway 17 ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_State_Route_17 ) everyday, and defintely get some opportunities to brake on my 2008 STI.

I'm running sticky rubber for sure... but...

My question is with this sort of driving I would think you might get some more pad life with DBA 5000 slotted rotors, vs. OEM?

Just wondering...

Last edited by carruthers42; 09-04-2010 at 05:59 PM.
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Old 09-05-2010, 09:48 AM   #161
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Burnman View Post


I came.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Burnman View Post
I think this part, at the very least, should be removed from the sticky part. It seems a bit misleading to support your 'big brakes are just for show' theory.

There are rules, fitment and surface issues here.

But it also proves my point that you don't need big huge brakes.



Secondly a lot of BBK offer aluminum center hats, and forged or billet aluminum calipers. Both reduce unsprung mass, and one reduces rotational mass also. This can improve overall handling and braking.
True, however, the improvement is not something that is enough to ever make a difference to 99% of drivers. Lets face it, for the most part, the guys running the big shiny BBKs, have 87483742lb 18-19" wheels, and 100lbs of stereo equipment. They are pretty much never on a dedicated purpose built track car. Yes, there are some fairly unmodified Subies that serious track guys are running, with BBKs on them, and they work FAR better than stock brakes. But STOCK is the key word here. Stock pads, lines, fluid. Of course a larger rotor, a fixed mount caliper and almost certainly higher temp fluid, are going to make a big difference. But you could have just as much of a difference by going to the 4 pots, good pads and fluid (may as well do lines to top off the pedal feel while you are in there)
Also, many (most actually) BBKS are a LOT heavier than stock. Go pick up a rotor for the Brembo Gran Turismo STI setup some time. The rotor alone weighs probably close to double what the factory rotors weigh. And dont get me started on Rotora's May as well toss a couple containers of mercury in your trunk


Last edited by Davenow; 09-05-2010 at 10:04 AM.
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Old 09-05-2010, 10:00 AM   #162
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Originally Posted by carruthers42 View Post
Good post.

But how about pad and rotor life under canyon driving conditions.
I drive highway 17 ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_State_Route_17 ) everyday, and defintely get some opportunities to brake on my 2008 STI.

I'm running sticky rubber for sure... but...

My question is with this sort of driving I would think you might get some more pad life with DBA 5000 slotted rotors, vs. OEM?

Just wondering...
Actually slotted rotors kill pads faster


If you are doing canyon runs, you need something to suck up heat.
Anyone reading this post needs to understand what canyon runs are like. Its long term hard acceleration and HARD braking with little time between, and over a long distance. If anything its worse on the brakes than a normal track day.

You already have the big fixed mount calipers, I would do a set of rotors with the separate center/outer ring, as I BELIEVE that they transfer less heat into the bearing carrier, then I would do some GOOD pads and Motul RBF 600. If you overdrive that, its your technique, not the brakes. Many people go into corners too hot, and end up having to brake a LOT harder than they should, which not only overheats the brakes faster, but IS SLOWER!


Here is the problem you will be faced with..

Pads that hold up to the higher temps, I mean HIGHER, not just a little bit, generally are noisey, tear up rotors, dusty as hell (and that dust eats the finish on wheels a hell of a lot faster than normal pads) and dont stop very well when cold. This is also a reason you want to go with the cheapest good (oem or the like) rotor you can find (look for a good deal on OEM replacements) since you will be ripping them up in fairly short order.
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Old 09-05-2010, 10:02 AM   #163
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Just to say it again..

If you have stock brakes, and you want a killer pedal feel, a lot more fade resistance, and a SICK looking brake setup, and you have $$$$ to spend. Go for it. Pick up a huge BBK.

Just make sure you understand that you can get every bit of the above benefits, except the looks, with normal sized brakes.
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Old 09-05-2010, 11:13 AM   #164
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But looks are important. Say what you want, but if you were buying a part and there were 2 to choose from, the old looking, rusty, unpainted one would not be on my car.

I also think BBK's do provide better stopping power if you have a sticky tire. Sticky tires will wear out stock brakes pretty fast. They have to clamp harder and longer to overcome the additional grip a sticky tire will provide. A BBK does not have to try as hard because it has better clamping force and more heat resistance.

Now, I know the everyday driver isn't driving around on R comps, but even some DOT aproved tires are very sticky and can easily benifit from a BBK. Yokohama Advan A048's are very sticky, DOT approved and come on Evo's stock. Those tires will provide much more grip then an OEM WRX tire, and in racing conditions or spirited driving sessions will overcome the stock set up.

I have had my OEM brakes fade on me to the point I almost couldn't stop. It was scary. I have not had that problem with my FHI 4/2 pot set up, good fluid, and good pads. Good brakes will stop harder, more times, and more reliably then an OEM set up any day. I am a firm believer in BBK's.

Now I know what you are saying Dave. If I take a bone stock car and just change only the brakes to a BBK will I get any benifit? Probably not, the tires and rest of the car are not going to exceed the OEM brakes capabilities. If I take that same car, tune it to stage whatever and toss on some R compounds then the BBK will def provide better results over the course of lets say, a track day.

I think your statements are true for the guy who uses his car as a DD and maybe the occasional spirited driving session. I don't think you are correct for the guy who uses his car at numerous track days, or likes to push his car to the limits.

Last edited by iluvdrt; 09-05-2010 at 11:20 AM.
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Old 09-05-2010, 11:41 AM   #165
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iluvdrt View Post
But looks are important. Say what you want, but if you were buying a part and there were 2 to choose from, the old looking, rusty, unpainted one would not be on my car.
Oh definitely, like I said, buying something because you want the look, is a totally legit thing.

I also think BBK's do provide better stopping power if you have a sticky tire. Sticky tires will wear out stock brakes pretty fast. They have to clamp harder and longer to overcome the additional grip a sticky tire will provide. A BBK does not have to try as hard because it has better clamping force and more heat resistance.
For 99% of people better pads and fluid are more than enough to deal with the heat. 99% of people don't have the skill to out drive the true capacity of the stock 4 pots/2 pots with good pads/lines/fluid, they instead overheat them due to driving errors. Tighten the nut behind the wheel The clamping force part there is irrelevant. More clamping force=more friction=more heat. How much the brakes have to work to do that, has nothing to do with how much heat they create.

Now, I know the everyday driver isn't driving around on R comps, but even some DOT aproved tires are very sticky and can easily benifit from a BBK. Yokohama Advan A048's are very sticky, DOT approved and come on Evo's stock. Those tires will provide much more grip then an OEM WRX tire, and in racing conditions or spirited driving sessions will overcome the stock set up.
Again, 99% of people will never have the skill levels needed to go beyond the ACTUAL capacity of the 4 pot setup with good pads/lines/fluid, and learning how to drive a little better, would go miles towards eliminating the need for a larger brake.

I have had my OEM brakes fade on me to the point I almost couldn't stop. It was scary. I have not had that problem with my FHI 4/2 pot set up, good fluid, and good pads. Exactly what I have been saying. Are you not reading my posts? Good brakes will stop harder, more times, and more reliably then an OEM set up any day. I am a firm believer in BBK's. The 4pot/2 pot setup is FAR from a BBK. Not even close. You just proved my point that you dont need a BBK.

Now I know what you are saying Dave. If I take a bone stock car and just change only the brakes to a BBK will I get any benifit? Definitely, but is it a benefit that you wouldnt have had with good pads/lines/fuid? Nope. Probably not, the tires and rest of the car are not going to exceed the OEM brakes capabilities. If I take that same car, tune it to stage whatever and toss on some R compounds then the BBK will def provide better results over the course of lets say, a track day.
Once again, driving technique is the reason why 99% of people have fade issues.

I think your statements are true for the guy who uses his car as a DD and maybe the occasional spirited driving session. I don't think you are correct for the guy who uses his car at numerous track days, or likes to push his car to the limits.
That is basically what I have been saying all along. You gotta remember, most people, and I mean OVERWHELMINGLY most, on nasioc, will never do a track day, hell most wont ever see a road course in person. And when you DO go to a track day, and look at the cars being driven by the truly fast drivers, you almost never see a BBK. Jackffr drove a CRX with nothing but pads/lines/fluid, WITH r-compounds, and ran circles around cars making 400+whp. With @110whp. FAR faster lap times. Far less brake. Zero fade problems.

See the red I think you may be misunderstanding some things I am saying, or didn't read all my posts (it IS a long thread), because we are saying some of the same things.

I hit report on this post (mine) to get Jack to come in here and give his feedback, as he has been doing track days since before most people in here got a lisc, and has done more than pretty much everyone on nasioc will ever do.
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Old 09-05-2010, 01:06 PM   #166
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iluvdrt View Post
I also think BBK's do provide better stopping power if you have a sticky tire. Sticky tires will wear out stock brakes pretty fast. They have to clamp harder and longer to overcome the additional grip a sticky tire will provide. A BBK does not have to try as hard because it has better clamping force and more heat resistance.
Nope. Bigger brakes do 3 potential things. The larger radius of the rotor means that you don't need as much clamping force to get the same braking force. Larger rotors and larger pads (usually the case with bigger brakes and calipers) increase the area over which a brake pad/rotor are generating heat, so for any given spot on either, the temperature is going to be lower. The third thing is that because these elements are larger, they have more area to dissipate the heat, so they cool quicker between applications. On the track, all of these things mean that you are less likely to fade or boil fluid or cook bearings.

Quote:
Now, I know the everyday driver isn't driving around on R comps, but even some DOT aproved tires are very sticky and can easily benifit from a BBK. Yokohama Advan A048's are very sticky, DOT approved and come on Evo's stock. Those tires will provide much more grip then an OEM WRX tire, and in racing conditions or spirited driving sessions will overcome the stock set up.

I have had my OEM brakes fade on me to the point I almost couldn't stop. It was scary. I have not had that problem with my FHI 4/2 pot set up, good fluid, and good pads. Good brakes will stop harder, more times, and more reliably then an OEM set up any day. I am a firm believer in BBK's.

Now I know what you are saying Dave. If I take a bone stock car and just change only the brakes to a BBK will I get any benifit? Probably not, the tires and rest of the car are not going to exceed the OEM brakes capabilities. If I take that same car, tune it to stage whatever and toss on some R compounds then the BBK will def provide better results over the course of lets say, a track day.

I think your statements are true for the guy who uses his car as a DD and maybe the occasional spirited driving session. I don't think you are correct for the guy who uses his car at numerous track days, or likes to push his car to the limits.
I'm not sure what to address here. Bigger brakes do not stop you quicker. Not sure you're saying that, but I just want to state it. Stopping distance is unaffected by your brakes.....if you can lock up the tires (no abs) or induce abs. Think of it this way....if you can lock up or induce abs with your present stock setup, what will a bbk do? Make your tire lock up....more? Tires will indeed make a difference in stopping distances. My LGT currently has some Kumho MX's on it. They are a sticky street tire that are ok (and I'll say just barely ok) for track use. They only last a few thousand miles but they're about spent, so I'm wearing them out. The cornering and braking stickiness is really evident compared to the regular street tires I took off the car.

I ran for a lot of years showroom stock. (somewhere around 14....maybe 20....don't remember). Did I have brake issues? Yah....always. Did I find ways to deal with it? Sure. Brake ducts zip tied in place so I could cut them for the time trials and be legal. Appropriate track pads that do NOT do well on the street. Hawk Blue, Carbotech XPx.... I was always in search of the highest dry boiling point fluid and still have some Wilwood EXP600 (635F dry boiling point). Even then, I would start to boil fluid. When it starts to boil, I'd NASCAR brake. (brake early and lighter). I'll note that super blue (choke, spit) has a 535F dry boiling point.

For street driving....besides coming down a mountain like Mt Washington or something, I have not seen the need for big brakes on the street or in autocross. I do remember KC taking the BBK off of his car as he found no advantage. I ran all stock classes back in the olden days when I autocrossed, so never even thought of caliper changes.

Can BBK's be good on the street? Sure. Use reasonable pads (not racing pads) and they do the job. They may also "feel" better....just as stainless braided lines "feel" better. But they won't reduce your stopping distances. They also do look better.
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Old 09-05-2010, 01:31 PM   #167
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See the red I think you may be misunderstanding some things I am saying, or didn't read all my posts (it IS a long thread), because we are saying some of the same things.

I hit report on this post (mine) to get Jack to come in here and give his feedback, as he has been doing track days since before most people in here got a lisc, and has done more than pretty much everyone on nasioc will ever do.
Dave,

I wasn't completely disagreeing, just trying to reiterate a little. I didn't read through eveything as it is a large thread. I am not arguing BTW, just stating my experience backs up your claims.

I know I can't outrun my 4 pots. My car didn't come with them (stock 98 LGT wagon) it came with the standard brakes...solid disc rear, vented front, single piston sliding calipers. I upgraded to the 4 pots because they are larger then my OEM kit. They are a BBK to me (the rotors are bigger by almost 1/2"), and I got the added advantage of using a vented rear disc. They are perfect for my driving habits, I have never gotten them to fade. This totally backs up your claim to a certain extent. While they are not my OEM brakes, they are still OEM upgrades from what I had. I have axis ceramic race pads, SS lines, and motul fluid BTW.


Jack, thanks for your input. I wasn't saying they stop you quicker (less distance) only that they will stop you more times at the same rate then a stock brake will. You explained that in your first paragraph. Smaller brakes fade. I know a vehicles stopping distance is limited by the laws of adhesion and friction. A car with 1MM brakes that can lock the tires, will stop in the same amount of room as the same car with 400mm brakes. The difference is, the 400mm brake equiped car will be able to do it all day long and the other brake equiped car will start to experience fade. When brakes fade it requires more distance to stop the car.

I couldn't agree more with what both of you have said....maybe I am just not saying it right. LOL
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Old 09-05-2010, 04:40 PM   #168
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I came.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Davenow View Post
But it also proves my point that you don't need big huge brakes.
How? First, you don't need ridiculous brakes when the surface friction is terrible, ie: dirt (which is not where this 99% of drivers you like so much will be driving). Second they are not allowed to run bigger/different brakes even if it did provide benefits. Proves absolutely nothing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Davenow View Post
Lets face it, for the most part, the guys running the big shiny BBKs, have 87483742lb 18-19" wheels, and 100lbs of stereo equipment. They are pretty much never on a dedicated purpose built track car.
Relevance? Just because a poseur has them on their car it means that they don't work? The jizz-worthy brake I posted was from a dedicated purpose built track car. In this case a tarmac rally setup.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Davenow View Post
Of course a larger rotor, a fixed mount caliper and almost certainly higher temp fluid, are going to make a big difference.
Umm, I thought they were just for show?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Davenow View Post
Also, many (most actually) BBKS are a LOT heavier than stock. Go pick up a rotor for the Brembo Gran Turismo STI setup some time. The rotor alone weighs probably close to double what the factory rotors weigh.
Are you talking about a 1 piece or 2 piece rotor? What is the measured weight difference? ('Probably' is generally not considered an accurate measuring term.) What about caliper difference?

http://www.brembo.com/CatalogoHPGT/Templates/SearchHPGT.aspx?NRMODE=Published&NRNODEGUID={97CFE BDC-74B5-481D-95E0-024644BC51FA}&NRORIGINALURL=/ENG/HighPerformance-Brakes/CarsGranTurismoLine/CatalogoHPGT.htm&NRCACHEHINT=NoModifyGuest

From Brembo: "Reduces “usprung weight” for better handling;" (Their typo, not me...)

From your other reply:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Davenow View Post
If you are doing canyon runs, you need something to suck up heat.
This is one of the purposes of the larger rotors.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Davenow View Post
Many people go into corners too hot, and end up having to brake a LOT harder than they should, which not only overheats the brakes faster, but IS SLOWER!
Yes, not everyone is a perfect driver, but if a brake upgrade can help with fade is it unnecessary? If it makes the car safer for their driving style is it unnecessary?

And from your original post:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Davenow View Post
If you go from stock, to 400whp, upgrading the brakes, IS NOT NEEDED AND YOU WILL BE NO SAFER THAN YOU WOULD BE ON STOCK BRAKES.
Think of this when you just recently said that most people over-drive their brakes. With 400whp people will be likely hitting higher speeds from which to over-drive and over-heat their brakes, and more frequently. So stock is still safer? C'mon...

In the noob forum there seems to be a strong 'stay stock' opinion that gets thrown at us noobs. I'm assuming it's more of a patronizing ideal to 'protect noobs from themselves', but having misleading, arguable or incorrect information stickied can lead to a loss of credibility.

The other one I take exception to is the statement that 400 AWD whp is more dangerous than 400 RWD whp because RWD will just spin the tires. Corners anyone? But that's not this debate...
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Old 09-05-2010, 09:28 PM   #169
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How? First, you don't need ridiculous brakes when the surface friction is terrible, ie: dirt (which is not where this 99% of drivers you like so much will be driving). Second they are not allowed to run bigger/different brakes even if it did provide benefits. Proves absolutely nothing.
Relevance? Just because a poseur has them on their car it means that they don't work? The jizz-worthy brake I posted was from a dedicated purpose built track car. In this case a tarmac rally setup.
Umm, I thought they were just for show?
Are you talking about a 1 piece or 2 piece rotor? What is the measured weight difference? ('Probably' is generally not considered an accurate measuring term.) What about caliper difference?
http://www.brembo.com/CatalogoHPGT/Templates/SearchHPGT.aspx?NRMODE=Published&NRNODEGUID={97CFE BDC-74B5-481D-95E0-024644BC51FA}&NRORIGINALURL=/ENG/HighPerformance-Brakes/CarsGranTurismoLine/CatalogoHPGT.htm&NRCACHEHINT=NoModifyGuest
From Brembo: "Reduces “usprung weight” for better handling;" (Their typo, not me...)

From your other reply:
This is one of the purposes of the larger rotors.
Yes, not everyone is a perfect driver, but if a brake upgrade can help with fade is it unnecessary? If it makes the car safer for their driving style is it unnecessary?
And from your original post:
Think of this when you just recently said that most people over-drive their brakes. With 400whp people will be likely hitting higher speeds from which to over-drive and over-heat their brakes, and more frequently. So stock is still safer? C'mon...
In the noob forum there seems to be a strong 'stay stock' opinion that gets thrown at us noobs. I'm assuming it's more of a patronizing ideal to 'protect noobs from themselves', but having misleading, arguable or incorrect information stickied can lead to a loss of credibility.
The other one I take exception to is the statement that 400 AWD whp is more dangerous than 400 RWD whp because RWD will just spin the tires. Corners anyone? But that's not this debate...

You are missing the point though. In terms of resisting brake fade a big brake kit is better. It will provide more consistant braking.

It will not make you brake faster or in a shorter distance.

If a car weighing 3200 lbs traveling 60 MPH brakes to 0 in 192' with stock brakes, it will still take 192' to stop it with a BBK. Once the tires adhesion to the road is lost (skidding) it doesn't matter what brakes you have, you are still skidding, and your stopping distance is at the mercy of your tires ability to regain traction.
Now if you like to do 089698765 million 60-0 stops a day at full force then a BBK OR driving lessons will help.

A BBK is useless for most people unless they want it strictly for astetics as they will never reach the maximum capability of their OEM system providing they upgrade the pads, fluids, and maybe the rotors.


Dave or anyone is not trying to say BBK's are useless, only that most people will never see the added benefits from them.

You are confusing the differences between a race car, and a DD someone wants to stop better whenever they decide to drive spiritedly.

I would bet 80% of people on NASIOC has black fluid in their brake resevior. That is why their brakes suck. Their fluid is contaminated with copper and water. It boils at like 250 degrees LOL. When the solution is actually a brake flush with quality fluid, they run out and spend 4K on huge brakes.

Last edited by iluvdrt; 09-05-2010 at 09:41 PM.
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Old 09-05-2010, 09:41 PM   #170
Burnman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iluvdrt View Post
You are missing the point though. In terms of resisting brake fade a big brake kit is better. It will provide more consistant braking.

It will not make you brake faster or in a shorter distance.

If a car weighing 3200 lbs traveling 60 MPH brakes to 0 in 192' with stock brakes, it will still take 192' to stop it with a BBK. Once the tires adhesion to the road is lost (skidding) it doesn't matter what brakes you have, you are still skidding, and your stopping distance is at the mercy of your tires ability to regain traction.
Now if you like to do 089698765 million 60-0 stops a day at full force then a BBK OR driving lessons will help.

A BBK is useless for most people unless they want it strictly for astetics as they will never reach the maximum capability of their OEM system providing they upgrade the pads, fluids, and maybe the rotors.


Dave or anyone is not trying to say BBK's are useless, only that most people will never see the added benefits from them.
This was a significant point of his original post (emphasis is his):


Quote:
Originally Posted by Davenow View Post
If you go from stock, to 400whp, upgrading the brakes, IS NOT NEEDED AND YOU WILL BE NO SAFER THAN YOU WOULD BE ON STOCK BRAKES.
This does not say "You won't stop shorter." It says "safer". Given how a 400 whp car will likely be driven more aggressively it is likely that it will be in situations that it will be stopping from higher speeds and more frequently (more likely to induce fade), how can the above statement be considered accurate?

He also contradicts himself in a couple of posts, saying alternatively that bigger brakes both do and don't make a difference.

If this is going to be a sticky for noobs it needs to be edited for clarity and accuracy.

That is all.
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Old 09-06-2010, 12:44 PM   #171
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Burnman View Post
This was a significant point of his original post (emphasis is his):




This does not say "You won't stop shorter." It says "safer". Given how a 400 whp car will likely be driven more aggressively it is likely that it will be in situations that it will be stopping from higher speeds and more frequently (more likely to induce fade), how can the above statement be considered accurate?

He also contradicts himself in a couple of posts, saying alternatively that bigger brakes both do and don't make a difference.

If this is going to be a sticky for noobs it needs to be edited for clarity and accuracy.

That is all.
I don't contradict myself ANYWHERE in this thread. All it takes is a little reading comprehension to see that.
Way to twist my words to try to make me look bad. Unfortunately you failed completely.
You make the statement that I say bigger brakes do, and dont make a difference. You intentionally (or maybe you just dont know how to read?) left out the part about me saying bigger brakes do make some differences in some situations, and no difference in others, and that for most people, they will make no difference in their day to day driving. And for the 7 years before you got here, there have been hundreds of wrecked cars with BBKs, because they thought their brakes would stop them shorter, meanwhile their tires gave up grip long before even the stock brakes would have broken a sweat. Bottom line, THE ONLY THING THAT DECREASES STOPPING DISTANCE IN 95% OF NON RACE COURSE DRIVING CONDITIONS ARE TIRES.

You are also over estimating how the average person drives a 400whp car. The average person doesn't do canyon runs, track days, or anything of the like. They nail the throttle from a standstill, or from a roll, usually in a straight line on some public road. Repeated hard braking, close enough together than it would overheat the brakes, is rare for these people.



As for editing it for clarity. Perhaps. However, I am rarely in a mood to water things down to compensate for stupidity. (not calling YOU stupid, just saying that I don't believe in spoon feeding dumb and lazy people, and 95% of stupidity is a direct result of being too lazy to bother learning)
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Old 09-06-2010, 01:58 PM   #172
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Worst sticky ever. Full of generalizations and arguing.

Let's sum it up. Street cars are fine with pads and fluid unless you are an idiot and drive in a dangerous manner on public roads.

If you track your car you will still be ok with upgraded pads and fluid unless you don't know how to properly use a brake pedal or are doing very long sessions.

If your car is a dedicated race car, the tires, weight, type of racing, your driving style, and rules will dictate whether a BBK is the right path.

If your car is a show car and you want the bling, it's worth it to you.

If you just want a BBK, go for it. It's your money and a free country.

Last edited by silver arrow; 09-06-2010 at 03:21 PM.
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Old 09-06-2010, 02:23 PM   #173
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carruthers42 View Post
Good post.

But how about pad and rotor life under canyon driving conditions.
I drive highway 17 ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_State_Route_17 ) everyday, and defintely get some opportunities to brake on my 2008 STI.

I'm running sticky rubber for sure... but...

My question is with this sort of driving I would think you might get some more pad life with DBA 5000 slotted rotors, vs. OEM?

Just wondering...
The stock braking system is well up to driving on public roads on an 08 STI. Add decent pads and good fluid once a year and you will be golden. A set of Hankook Ventus RS-3 tires will do more for your braking than a BBK in your situation. I would look toward the suspension to spend money. At the very least you should max out negative camber in the front and add a larger RSB if your car is stock and you really want to enjoy your car in the twistes. If you want to go further, some RCE springs would be nice. Beyond that there are coilover kits an almost every price range. KW makes some of the best for the STI, but they cost double what a budget set of coilovers cost. The stock suspension is set up to understeer terribly. I also set the DCCD to manual with 1 bar showing. It's amazing how much it reduces understeer.
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Old 09-06-2010, 02:47 PM   #174
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Davenow View Post
As for editing it for clarity. Perhaps. However, I am rarely in a mood to water things down to compensate for stupidity. (not calling YOU stupid, just saying that I don't believe in spoon feeding dumb and lazy people, and 95% of stupidity is a direct result of being too lazy to bother learning)
You posted an article in the Noob forum that was unclear and arguably inaccurate. And you don't want to water it down to compensate for stupidity? C'mon...

This lazy stupidity you're talking about is not stupidity, it's ignorance. And isn't the whole purpose of the noob forum to reduce ignorance? The reason why people who don't already know a lot about cars or Subarus (me) start here is supposed to be to reduce their ignorance. Confusing, disorganized posts don't help.

My suggestions:

Explain the following, both how the basics work and how they are affected by upgrades or modifications:

1. Reliability or fail-safety
2. Ultimate stopping power
3. Balance or proportioning
4. Feel or modulation
5. Durability or fade resistance
6. Pedal pressure
7. Life of the friction material

Blanket statements about not 'needing to upgrade because you won't be any safer' should be avoided.

And what does 7 years of wrecked cars before me have to do with anything? Because I'm a noob to Subarus it invalidates any relevant arguments I make? Thanks for your input.
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Old 09-06-2010, 08:11 PM   #175
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Kind of funny that only 1 or 2 posts here mentioned the need for a Master Cylinder brace.

Our WRX firewalls flex when we step on the brakes hard. I've never owned a car with this issue, hope to never run into it again. It doesn't matter what kind of brake system you have, fix this issue first before attempting anything else. (IMO)

this is the Newbie Forum, right?

I recently replaced the stock RE92's for some sticky summer tires, braking is much more predictable now.
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