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Old 07-06-2010, 10:43 AM   #101
juanmedina
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cucamelsmd15 View Post
Oh, so youre comparing your car with a full exhaust, cams, forged this and that to a stock Evo?



See, the problem is that this is your opinion, the facts are very different.


But you said yourself, the Evo has a much larger turbo, and it can do that without the mods you have.




Please show me an honest 128+ trapping 20g with 450whp on a Subaru motor. Go ahead, Ill wait. Ill probably be waiting a while too...


See, this is where you simply dont understand...


500whp out of a 30R. That motor might last all of 3 dyno pulls, unless its a 4G63.
I have prove you wrong many times, from the weight of my own car , to E85 tuning. The 1st post of my E85 thread is a reminder for you to stop being arrogant and ignorant. Also to understand that there are people like me that don't live by the rules of NASIOC and the old timers; people that have pushed the envelope with success. http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show....php?t=1729586

You are right the 4G63 is superior, but the EJ255/57 with some nice forged pistons is not bad at all to 500-550whp, and it should last a while with some great tuning and nice gas.

Here is stock motor 30R STi on race gas it puts down 475whp not quite 500whp , but it has lasted quite a few dyno passes and strip passes .
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show....php?t=1957500

Here are the stock turbo EVOs that are trapping 125-128mph
http://forums.evolutionm.net/drag-ra...k-8-turbo.html
http://forums.evolutionm.net/drag-ra...ock-turbo.html

One with a built engine, and one feather weight with a stock motor; and they break too

Here is an properly setup WRX with an 18G
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show....php?t=1600090

Here are two 20Ged STis on E85, one making 400whp on Airboy and one 450whp on a dynojet
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show....php?t=1915558
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show....php?t=1861355

Like I said send me a 20G, and will run with those EVOs all day long

GL
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Old 07-06-2010, 12:00 PM   #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juanmedina View Post
I have prove you wrong many times, from the weight of my own car , to E85 tuning. The 1st post of my E85 thread is a reminder for you to stop being arrogant and ignorant. Also to understand that there are people like me that don't live by the rules of NASIOC and the old timers; people that have pushed the envelope with success. http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show....php?t=1729586

You are right the 4G63 is superior, but the EJ255/57 with some nice forged pistons is not bad at all to 500-550whp, and it should last a while with some great tuning and nice gas.

Here is stock motor 30R STi on race gas it puts down 475whp not quite 500whp , but it has lasted quite a few dyno passes and strip passes .
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show....php?t=1957500

Here are the stock turbo EVOs that are trapping 125-128mph
http://forums.evolutionm.net/drag-ra...k-8-turbo.html
http://forums.evolutionm.net/drag-ra...ock-turbo.html

One with a built engine, and one feather weight with a stock motor; and they break too

Here is an properly setup WRX with an 18G
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show....php?t=1600090

Here are two 20Ged STis on E85, one making 400whp on Airboy and one 450whp on a dynojet
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show....php?t=1915558
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show....php?t=1861355

Like I said send me a 20G, and will run with those EVOs all day long

GL


You proved me wrong on the weight of your car? Im sorry, did you come weigh it on the Longacre scales I have when I wasnt home? No?

The first post of your e85 thread? I seem to recall that I said you would pop your motor, which you managed to do, twice in short order. Yeah, thats ignorance right there. In other words, you said "zOMG, I want to run e85 because all the k00 kids are doing it, and I cant be k00 if I dont run it, and some guy on the internets said I would blow my motor, and Im gunna prove him WRONG", only, you proved my point for me.

I digress, that 475whp 30r you posted will be dead in short order. Its a proven fact that past 375whp, Subaru motors have a very short life on stock internals.

I also knew you would quote the Yimi Sport thread as some sort of bible, yet its never been backed up with a single trip to the track.

See, here is the real thing that youre too stupid to understand... You said:
Quote:
What I am trying to say is that the power output is the same to 500whp using the same size turbos on E85
Except, its not.

Then you said:
Quote:
EVO with a 20G max out will make the same power that a WRX with a 20G max out.
Except, they dont.

Oh, and by the way, MIVEC didnt roll around until the Evo IX. Those VIII's you posted with stock turbos, well, they are murdering you based on VE alone. De-tune your AVCS and youll see just how much VE the 4G63 has over the EJ25x.

Its amazing how everyone understands the how and why when it comes to the 4G63 being the better powerplant. Everyone, except you that is. Have you ever owned one? Nevermind, thats rhetorical. I wouldnt expect anything less from you, talking crap about something youve never owned and/or turned a wrench on. Nor would I expect anything less from you than bench racing and dyno racing.

Oh, and Ill just leave this here...
Quote:
Originally Posted by juanmedina View Post
I'm asking because I want to get my car protune to run 100% E85, the only shops around here are topspeed and 3sx. I email them both and topspeed has experience with tuning with e85, but 3sx doesn't.

Do you tune cars yourself? because if you do, I need a tune.
Edit: Youre going to run 10's on a 20g? Now Ive heard it all.
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Old 07-06-2010, 12:07 PM   #103
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So how good are the VIII's on stock cams?
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Old 07-06-2010, 12:08 PM   #104
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Yeah, the stock Evo 8 or evo 9 turbos should not be thought of as a standard 16g. For that matter the TME turbo either. They are much larger than those 16G's used for DSMs and Subies.

Realistically if you want to build an STi or Evo for 600whp, you're going to have to buy the same parts for either setup...except you may want to sleeve the EJ if running a 79mm stroke setup.

Last edited by Homemade WRX; 07-06-2010 at 01:42 PM.
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Old 07-06-2010, 12:43 PM   #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cucamelsmd15 View Post


You proved me wrong on the weight of your car? Im sorry, did you come weigh it on the Longacre scales I have when I wasnt home? No?

The first post of your e85 thread? I seem to recall that I said you would pop your motor, which you managed to do, twice in short order. Yeah, thats ignorance right there. In other words, you said "zOMG, I want to run e85 because all the k00 kids are doing it, and I cant be k00 if I dont run it, and some guy on the internets said I would blow my motor, and Im gunna prove him WRONG", only, you proved my point for me.

I digress, that 475whp 30r you posted will be dead in short order. Its a proven fact that past 375whp, Subaru motors have a very short life on stock internals.

I also knew you would quote the Yimi Sport thread as some sort of bible, yet its never been backed up with a single trip to the track.

See, here is the real thing that youre too stupid to understand... You said:


Except, its not.

Then you said:


Except, they dont.

Oh, and by the way, MIVEC didnt roll around until the Evo IX. Those VIII's you posted with stock turbos, well, they are murdering you based on VE alone. De-tune your AVCS and youll see just how much VE the 4G63 has over the EJ25x.

Its amazing how everyone understands the how and why when it comes to the 4G63 being the better powerplant. Everyone, except you that is. Have you ever owned one? Nevermind, thats rhetorical. I wouldnt expect anything less from you, talking crap about something youve never owned and/or turned a wrench on. Nor would I expect anything less from you than bench racing and dyno racing.

Oh, and Ill just leave this here...


Edit: Youre going to run 10's on a 20g? Now Ive heard it all.
Again your post is full of opinions.......

and you keep missing my main point, here it is again: 4G63 is superior, IMO to 500-550whp the EJ255/57 with forged is quite capable of being efficient and reliable with good tuning and good gas.

Take a look at all my post in this thread, on almost every post I agree that the 4G63 is better.

As far as the weight of my car, I think I have prove it with my trap speeds. There is not way a 3300lb car will trap 121mph with 340whp, the power to weight ratio is not there. I only blew one motor, my stock motor. That post that you quoted was 3-2 years old...Yes 10s with a 20G the power to weight ratio is there.

You win! you win a cookie,

The 4G63 is superior than all the EJ motors

/thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Homemade WRX View Post
Yeah, the stock Evo 8 or evo 9 turbos should not be thought of as a standard 16g. For that matter the TME turbo either. They are much larger than those 16G's used for DSMs and Subies.

Realistically if you want to build and STi or Evo for 600whp, you're going to have to buy the same parts for either setup...except you may want to sleeve the EJ if running a 79mm stroke setup.
This! is possible but obviously takes more money
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Old 07-06-2010, 12:50 PM   #106
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First you say...
Quote:
Originally Posted by juanmedina View Post
Again your post is full of opinions.......
But then you say...
Quote:

and you keep missing my main point, here it is again: 4G63 is superior, IMO to 500-550whp the EJ255/57 with forged is quite capable of being efficient and reliable with good tuning and good gas.


The problem you keep blathering on about is that the 4G63 and EJ25x are equivalent given the same size turbocharger. That was your original point. Now that youve been proven wrong, youve changed it to be that the 4G63 is now better, but the EJ25x is equivalent with forged internals.

Please point out the opinion in my post? The fact that you couldnt back up your weight numbers on a calibrated scale? I offered to weigh the car for you. The fact that Subaru internals are known to be weak? Welcome to 6 years ago. The fact that you blew your motor after I said you would, because you didnt have a clue what you were doing? Welcome to 2009. The fact that you begged me to tune your car? Welcome to 3 years ago.

If you honestly agreed that the 4G63 was better, you wouldnt still be arguing that the EJ25x can produce the same power given the same turbo, when that clearly isnt the case. Also, you would stop arguing your "points".
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Old 07-06-2010, 02:08 PM   #107
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Thanks for all the replies everyone. To answer some of the comments:

Why not just get a Z06, mustang, etc? Around here I think it's impossible to drive more than a mile without seeing a mustang. Vettes are a little less common, but not much. EVO's and STi's are very rare in comparison. Also, I've always liked imports and the turbo/awd combo is fantastic.

Why 600awhp, whats so magic about it? I've had a 400awhp car and I'd like to go a bit bigger. This won't happen over night, but over the course of a few years. I'd likely start with an hta green, then build up the supports - fuel, clutch, motor, etc. before moving to something like a hta 3582/86.

It's not all about drag racing, in fact I'd rather do autox/track. As the project progresses I'm currently envisioning a 4G64 with the 35 on E85. Here is an example of what I'd like to build towards -

http://forums.evolutionm.net/evo-dyn...esome-trq.html

I can't imagine the feel of that on the street/track.

Thanks again.
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Old 07-06-2010, 02:14 PM   #108
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If you guys are comparing power output and quality, is this even a comparison! wow......

Stock for Stock
ej25 =****ty cast metal piston with lack of flow in the heads...TD04/vf43 turbos that loose all power up top and pulls like a toyota camry..
Love subarus but....It is what it is...


NOW, if you wanna compare built motors pushing 600+whp...


AMS evo's will tell it all....

theres a reason AMS pulls 1000+whp from a 2.2 stroked 4g63.
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Old 07-06-2010, 02:38 PM   #109
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I think the main point that Juan is trying to get across is that it is possible to make similar power on both engines with similar modifications. You CANNOT anticipate to make the EXACT same power on the EXACT same modifications on two totally DIFFERENT engine designs. We use AVCS on our Subarus to make up for the lack of VE. We also make up for top end power using low-mid range power. Subaru engines make power in a very different way. The boxer design that Subaru uses does not lend itself to high revving top end monsters like the 4G63. If I were to choose either one for drag racing, I would take the evo. If I were to build a lightly modified daily driver, I would choose the STi because the low end power makes it a much more friendly daily driver. The evos also seem to have more reliability problems stock and lightly modified than the subarus do. I know many evo owners who are stage 2 with other minor modifications that are always having problems with their cars.

This is such a pointless topic because you are comparing two totally different engines designs. Realistically they are only similar on the most basic level. Any Chevy or Ford fan will tell you there is practically no comparison between an LS1 and a 4.6L DOHC Modular engine. One is a pushrod engine and the other is not. They make power in totally different ways and mods that work well for one do not necessarily work for another. The DOHC 4.6L lends itself to forced induction very well, while the pushrod LS1 is much more suited to nitrous. These two engines can make very similar power, but require vastly different modifications.

Last edited by Corinator; 07-06-2010 at 02:40 PM. Reason: self imposed grammar nazism
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Old 07-06-2010, 09:01 PM   #110
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Screw AMS, Brent Rau's car makes more power and its a 2.0liter. If your looking build a drag car its one thing but again look at the whole car. If you wanna go fast buy a bike. And im sick of people saying v8s are so great. Brent runs high 6 sec quarter mile with 5x less displacement than the big motors etc 4g63 is not better in anyway, just faster. And who wants to run e85 all the time? If your not near a station, you get to run it at the track or maybe on the weekends and then you go back to pathetic pump gas. Run 100% meth on street and c16 at track if you wanna get crazy. And i dont believe my subaru would make less power with a 16g than an evo. Im making 320whp on an accurate mustang dyno which would put down an easy 360whp on dynojet. My vf52 is tiny as hell. And all those numbers mean nothing if you cant drive or you cant get traction with your over rated v8 LOL

12.01 at 114
Stock turbo/trans/motor
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Old 07-06-2010, 09:13 PM   #111
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and then another baby showed up and then another and another and another and another....


ahaha just playin man, good luck with everything
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Old 07-06-2010, 09:14 PM   #112
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Blah blah over rated V8's
How did we even get to going on about V8's?
That's great that your WRX traps 114mph. Now you can keep up with some stock NA 8 cylinders.
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Old 07-06-2010, 09:17 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by mapleleaf View Post
Blah blah over rated V8's
How did we even get to going on about V8's?
That's great that your WRX traps 114mph. Now you can keep up with some stock NA 8 cylinders.
Like this one?


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Old 07-06-2010, 09:38 PM   #114
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Saw that one already.
I loved the work they did when the GT500 first came out.
I'm a big fan of displacement....

Last edited by mapleleaf; 07-06-2010 at 09:45 PM.
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Old 07-06-2010, 09:39 PM   #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mapleleaf View Post
Saw that one already.
I loved the work they did when the Cobra first came out.
I'm a big fan of displacement....
I took out a new 5.0 a few weeks ago and wow, what a blast.
I see all the sad faces driving around in their STI's right now.
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Old 07-06-2010, 10:11 PM   #116
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You dont get an Sti for drag racing!!! There are better platforms "IF"
thats all you want to do. Sti is for doing all types of racing good and great for rally. Id love to see a mustang do a rally or ice race, THAT would be funny as hell.

Mustang driver "I dont get it, I do great in a straight line with pavement but everywhere else with turns and dirt and snow I suck and I dont understand why? I got over 600whp!!!"
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Old 07-06-2010, 10:29 PM   #117
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Who cares about dirt and snow.
That's what rally beaters are for.
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Old 07-07-2010, 09:29 AM   #118
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I don't get the "you can't compare them, they are too different" comments. You can't have a comparison with identical objects, by definition they have to be different. I think it's fair to compare any motor to any motor, regardless of displacement, induction method, etc.

Ever watch Fifth Gear? They compare EVO's to bob sleds and ferrari's to airplanes. That's part of the fun and intrique in comparing "too different" objects.

Also, the "these are rally cars" argument is getting a bit old. Sure, that is their heritage and they preform exceptionally well in that arena, but I would venture that >99% are never raced in ice or dirt. Sure maybe some fun in a snow covered parking lot or your local park, but not truly raced.
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Old 07-07-2010, 11:13 AM   #119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sti77 View Post
I don't get the "you can't compare them, they are too different" comments. You can't have a comparison with identical objects, by definition they have to be different. I think it's fair to compare any motor to any motor, regardless of displacement, induction method, etc.

Ever watch Fifth Gear? They compare EVO's to bob sleds and ferrari's to airplanes. That's part of the fun and intrique in comparing "too different" objects.

Also, the "these are rally cars" argument is getting a bit old. Sure, that is their heritage and they preform exceptionally well in that arena, but I would venture that >99% are never raced in ice or dirt. Sure maybe some fun in a snow covered parking lot or your local park, but not truly raced.
ok Mr. Sti77, you have a point. The two are turbo-charged, 4cylinder, gasoline engines, with spark ignition and are dual overhead cams...now everything else is different. Comparison done


yes, I'm joking but that is pretty much about it

Last edited by Homemade WRX; 07-07-2010 at 11:19 AM.
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Old 07-07-2010, 12:00 PM   #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigRigger View Post
You dont get an Sti for drag racing!!! There are better platforms "IF"
thats all you want to do. Sti is for doing all types of racing good and great for rally. Id love to see a mustang do a rally or ice race, THAT would be funny as hell.

Mustang driver "I dont get it, I do great in a straight line with pavement but everywhere else with turns and dirt and snow I suck and I dont understand why? I got over 600whp!!!"
just stop posting

no one would take a 600 hp mustang racing on the dirt or ice, and most with 600 hp subarus wouldnt either.

a properly built mustang will be just as competitive on a ROAD RACING COURSE WITH LEFT AND RIGHT TURNS as a properly built subaru.

AWD doesnt equal superiority over everything, in fact it can be a hamper IMO.

F1 cars arent awd
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Old 07-07-2010, 12:03 PM   #121
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mxpunk View Post
just stop posting

no one would take a 600 hp mustang racing on the dirt or ice, and most with 600 hp subarus wouldnt either.

a properly built mustang will be just as competitive on a ROAD RACING COURSE WITH LEFT AND RIGHT TURNS as a properly built subaru.

AWD doesnt equal superiority over everything, in fact it can be a hamper IMO.

F1 cars arent awd
Completely true in EVERY aspect. Mustang's can have some serious stick in the curves. Like almost everything (Subies included) they suck out of the box.
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Old 07-07-2010, 12:13 PM   #122
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also....ams 2.2L 4g63 is AWD...im pretty sure brent rau's eclipse is rwd


still fast, nonetheless
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Old 07-07-2010, 12:15 PM   #123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mxpunk View Post
just stop posting

no one would take a 600 hp mustang racing on the dirt or ice, and most with 600 hp subarus wouldnt either.

a properly built mustang will be just as competitive on a ROAD RACING COURSE WITH LEFT AND RIGHT TURNS as a properly built subaru.

AWD doesnt equal superiority over everything, in fact it can be a hamper IMO.

F1 cars arent awd
You don't think F1 cars would be awd if they could be?
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Old 07-07-2010, 12:29 PM   #124
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lets get off the AWD RWD thing. Its OT.

Plus we all know FWD is the best.
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Old 07-07-2010, 12:35 PM   #125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mxpunk View Post
also....ams 2.2L 4g63 is AWD...im pretty sure brent rau's eclipse is rwd


still fast, nonetheless
They are on a 2.1L as well...long rodded big bore (87.5mm) setup. Unless Martin has changed the bottom end again.
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