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Old 07-06-2010, 04:58 PM   #1
Steckers
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Default The Bad Boys of Phat Botti Tuning

This is in no way meant to be a factual certainty, simple some love for the guys who hooked me up, and made "Daphne" pull like a demon.

To start with I have an 08' OBS (same basic 2.5i N/A as the rest of ya), and as we have heard countless times on here, 'I wanted more power'.
Well this is how I went about it; wish I had a dyno to show, which the lack the of will most certainly get me flamed by some haters
Anywho, after countless hours of research, I finally compiled what turned out to be a great combination of bolt-ons; and the magic ingredient was Mikey and Ron from Phat Botti Tuning. Now I know what everyone is thinking, "if I didn't have the extra $$ to get the turbo version, what makes you think I can afford ~$600 for a pro-tune?!" Well what if I said the Tactrix Cable, and tune together was $300?? Got your interest?!?

So what I have is an AEM CAI installed into the flex hose coming from the torque box, there-by retaining that resonator chamber that I remember reading somewhere was a good thing; an '08 OEM WRX cat back, grounding wire kit, and various other suspension/drivetrain trinkets. Now there is no doubt that this simple combination ALLOWED my car to get a whole lot more power. But it was the tune that made it happen.

The low end torque is absolutely insane now, she pulls like a freaking mull!!

Basically what I'm trying to say is there ARE options out there to increase the performance of your car, despite the common misconception floating around here. But, THE ABSOLUTE MUST is to contact Ron or Mikey, get yourself a Tactrix cable, and they can walk you through the rest, for a VERY reasonable fee (think less than $200)

If I can manage to find an AWD dyno (I just moved this past 4th, and I'm not familiar with this part of the county), I hope to post an image, because undoubtedly, someone will scream bogus This is in no way meant to start some long winded feud; I've just noticed an increasing amount of "I have an (08+ NA) and want to get more power!!!"; well consider this your jumping off point

Much love Mikey, appreciate it!
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Old 07-06-2010, 06:09 PM   #2
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Alot of people know about the Tactrix cable, the reason it is not talked about that much is because it works on 05+ so the older models are on their own.

Comparing buying a WRX to getting a pro tune is sort of strange, since they do not relate at all. You factor insurance, gas, wear and tear bits, and the mod bug a wrx costs much more.

Eitherway I am glad you got more power out of the car, did they happen to give you any type of information on changes they made?
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Old 07-06-2010, 07:41 PM   #3
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I wasnt trying to compare buying a WRX to a pro-tune, simply stating one of the excuses i see on here all the time, which is "I didnt have the money to get the WRX, and I dont have money for an expensive tune/dyno session."
I know one of the biggest adj was advancing the timing, I believe it ultimately advanced 4* (I now run 91, to reduce to risk of knock, but worth the $3 extra per-fill to me). Beyond that, STIMikey did the tuning ( 4 stages of ecu flashes, and data logging). In fact it was stated that I could take it even further, but i feel for the massive increase I have already, I'll hold for the sake of longevity.
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Old 07-06-2010, 07:43 PM   #4
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Oh ya, and as stated, this was directed more toward the 08+ crowd, as it seems the ECU is more "learning friendly".
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Old 07-06-2010, 07:45 PM   #5
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On last part I just realized I neglected to mention, was I also have the Perrin LCP, which makes a dramatic difference
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Old 07-06-2010, 08:14 PM   #6
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If you could get a sick set of equal length headers on there, you'd see even more.
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Old 07-06-2010, 08:59 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steckers View Post
I wasnt trying to compare buying a WRX to a pro-tune, simply stating one of the excuses i see on here all the time, which is "I didnt have the money to get the WRX, and I dont have money for an expensive tune/dyno session."
I know one of the biggest adj was advancing the timing, I believe it ultimately advanced 4* (I now run 91, to reduce to risk of knock, but worth the $3 extra per-fill to me). Beyond that, STIMikey did the tuning ( 4 stages of ecu flashes, and data logging). In fact it was stated that I could take it even further, but i feel for the massive increase I have already, I'll hold for the sake of longevity.
Sorry about that, I think I came off a bit more negative then I meant to. I meant more to show the comparison sort of did not work. Better would have been the accessport to the tactrix cable

As I said though, did they happen to give you any sort of information on changes they made? Could help out some fellas around here, but also since I presume this is their first time tuning a NA subaru maybe somewhere here could help as well.
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Old 07-06-2010, 09:02 PM   #8
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Pulls like a mule, eh?

Cute. I'll leave the mule pulling to cars that can break free racing slicks in 3rd gear off half throttle.

There really isn't any magic to making power.

Colder air can make you about 5 to 10 lb-ft. depending on how much colder you go. This is why intercoolers are a huge deal with forced induction, but it's no different with NA.

Stock Subaru tunes are pretty well known to be tame. It's pretty easy to add a bit of timing and gain some torque. It still does take a fuel change to add serious timing and a sizable bump in power. For example, I-Speed's tunes for the older models run almost double the timing on their 91 octane specific tune geared for a CAI and full exhaust vesus their stock geared tune. There's a good 20 ft-lbs to gain from this.

A cat back doesn't really do anything useful without gaining flow prior.
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Old 07-07-2010, 03:27 AM   #9
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Quote:
A cat back doesn't really do anything useful without gaining flow prior.
Thanks, Ill keep that in mind. The next step I'm going to work on is a respectable EL header, and a high-flow cat (I kinda like the cat on Boxer4, the highflow one with 2 cats).

I am running 91 now, and I have saved all the logs and maps; the logs are in Excel, however the maps are in .hex and I'm not sure how I can show them here. In regards to the cold air comment, I did see from my logging that at WOT intake temp was at 72*, which happened to be abmient temp that night (dramatically different that the 90ish* it was registering when just putzing around).

If it helps here is what Mikey had me log: feedback knock correction, fine learning knock correction, IAM, learned ignition, ignition advance, timing, intake air temp, vehicle speed, engine load, ignition total timing, and RPM. Doing a full pull through 3rd I ended up at 107@5986rpm, with another gear to go (ya that was intense )

Oh and a final note, I was not the first NA they have tuned, this is something they have delved into multiple times (despite how infrequently NA owners actually get tuned).

As I had mentioned before, this was more aimed toward all the noobs, such as myself, who have shown up in the last 6-7 months, with 08+'s. I was simply trying to give them hope, since the first 5 responses on all their post's are always the same:
1) You can't make power, 2) Get a WRX, 3) Do some research, 4) Read williaty's M.O., 5) "(some random hateful comment)"

Dont get me wrong, I got love for all the specialists; but sometimes you guys can come across negactively (albiet reasonably so since this is redundant stuff being posted), which only turns a first timer looking for help

-Steve-
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Old 07-07-2010, 08:00 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steckers View Post
Doing a full pull through 3rd I ended up at 107@5986rpm, with another gear to go (ya that was intense )

Oh and a final note, I was not the first NA they have tuned, this is something they have delved into multiple times (despite how infrequently NA owners actually get tuned).
Mikey is a good guy...I got to hang out with him when he tuned my car a back in March (his first NA attempt actually...nice dude). I question if your car is an Auto or Manual...107mph in 3rd? In my 5spd MT 3rd runs out at 80-85mph due to gearing, at that speed i'm pegged at the limiter...you sure you weren't in 4th? (which goes to about 110mph)

EDIT: NM I see now that you said you had 1 gear to go after 3rd which leads me to believe you are in an AT...
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Old 07-07-2010, 10:47 AM   #11
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Yeah, 100 in 3rd is definitely auto. Our manual 3rds only go to like 78.
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Old 07-07-2010, 02:46 PM   #12
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Ya its a 4eat, but I use the sport shifter about 95% of the time, that's how I took it to 107 in 3rd.
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Old 07-07-2010, 03:39 PM   #13
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I have to agree that a tune is a definite must have. I had mine tuned by Millerspec here in Vegas for $300, and it gave me a new car. Forget the accessport, and get yourself an opensource tune for half the price.
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Old 07-07-2010, 07:46 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Back Road Runner View Post
Pulls like a mule, eh?

Cute. I'll leave the mule pulling to cars that can break free racing slicks in 3rd gear off half throttle.

There really isn't any magic to making power.

Colder air can make you about 5 to 10 lb-ft. depending on how much colder you go. This is why intercoolers are a huge deal with forced induction, but it's no different with NA.

Stock Subaru tunes are pretty well known to be tame. It's pretty easy to add a bit of timing and gain some torque. It still does take a fuel change to add serious timing and a sizable bump in power. For example, I-Speed's tunes for the older models run almost double the timing on their 91 octane specific tune geared for a CAI and full exhaust vesus their stock geared tune. There's a good 20 ft-lbs to gain from this.

A cat back doesn't really do anything useful without gaining flow prior.
Subaru stock N/A tunes are anything but tame as far as timing goes. On 93 octane, my 07 wouldn't even use the entire IAM. In fact, there was only one area of the timing table where I could add any timing with all the stock parts. I have seen an 08 timing table and its very aggressive, like my 07's was. They may have made some improvements to the engine to allow more advanced ignition timing but I seriously doubt it would allow for more timing on top of what the ECU was programmed with.
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Old 07-08-2010, 08:14 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by RaceFaceXC View Post
Subaru stock N/A tunes are anything but tame as far as timing goes. On 93 octane, my 07 wouldn't even use the entire IAM. In fact, there was only one area of the timing table where I could add any timing with all the stock parts. I have seen an 08 timing table and its very aggressive, like my 07's was. They may have made some improvements to the engine to allow more advanced ignition timing but I seriously doubt it would allow for more timing on top of what the ECU was programmed with.
All I know is that once Mikey got done with mine the timing tables looked nothing like stock...so I couldn't even tell you what exactly changed in there aside from the entire table being used instead of a few columns...i don't have the image on this computer or i'd post screen shots
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Old 07-08-2010, 08:09 PM   #16
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Hey guys,

It was a pleasure to E-tune Stecker's car. Thank you very much sir for the write up! I'd like to take a lil while and clarify a few things that I have seen in this thread so far.

This in fact was not my first N/A car. I have tuned 10 naturally aspirated Subaru's, 3 being Tribeca B9's with the 3.0 H6. I also have a 350z coming up using the Cobb race software.

Pricing for these tunes is peanuts compared to the active market as well. Both Phatron and myself (Mikey) are full time engineers that work with tuning cars at night and on weekends as both a hobby and passion (not as a job).

I see that there are differing opinions in this thread regarding the stock rom and whether the ignition tables are tame or overly aggressive. The answer to this is truly respective to the individual car being tuned.

I've had stock cars come to me with IAM's .5 and under, on 93 octane. I've had other cars at 1 and loving life, haha.

Most N/A cars will take more timing in some area's, need less in others, and run stock timing during cruise and high load, low rpm.

Stecker's car was possibly the biggest delight and surprise when considering a 2.5i car. It took everything I threw at it, and could probably take even more.

On a 91/89 octane mix, we ended up running more timing, everywhere in the ignition table. Clean right through 107 mph


Obviously, there is much more to an N/A car than just timing. Most tables are modified. Only scalings remain stock, and even compensations are changed.


They are fun cars to tune for sure, and I'm looking forward to many others in the future.

-STi Mikey
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Old 07-08-2010, 09:30 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Back Road Runner View Post
Stock Subaru tunes are pretty well known to be tame. It's pretty easy to add a bit of timing and gain some torque. It still does take a fuel change to add serious timing and a sizable bump in power.

I was under the impression that the timing was pretty stretched out there on a stock car. So much so that on the newer models (05+) there's little pings here and there. There's a few MPG to be gained even by going to 89-90 octane.

The fueling tables are just.... bad. lol

--edit--

*Secret 4EAT Frat Handshake*
Have you tried the c.diff lock switch? You'll love it.
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Old 07-09-2010, 02:05 AM   #18
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Yeah, I have literally never seen a stock 05+ Impreza have higher than a 0.8 IAM on any octane. It's pretty common for me to see them around 0.5 to 0.7 on 87 or 89. The stock tune is VERY aggressive, it's just not aggressive in a way that the car enthusiast likes!

It really makes me wonder what's going on with the OP's car that it was able to take so much timing. Makes me suspicious about what's going on inside the engine.
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Old 07-09-2010, 10:12 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by williaty View Post
Yeah, I have literally never seen a stock 05+ Impreza have higher than a 0.8 IAM on any octane. It's pretty common for me to see them around 0.5 to 0.7 on 87 or 89. The stock tune is VERY aggressive, it's just not aggressive in a way that the car enthusiast likes!

It really makes me wonder what's going on with the OP's car that it was able to take so much timing. Makes me suspicious about what's going on inside the engine.
As I tell most people, Subaru had an odd way going about with their stock tune.

Other than 2-3 2.5 cars, Stecker's being one of them, have been happy with more timing than stock in most areas.

Subaru set up the tables so that (this is just my observation) a 2.5i in Northern Canada running 94 octane could utilize the map to its full potential.

But what about the Florida or SoCal boys? Well, the way its set up is when you first get on the car, it will knock so hard the IAM will plummit.

There's your newly defined timing advance and total ignition timing curve.

Funny how this works.

-Mikey
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Old 07-09-2010, 10:34 AM   #20
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.08 IAM from factory much?
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Old 07-09-2010, 01:04 PM   #21
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Quote:
*Secret 4EAT Frat Handshake*
Have you tried the c.diff lock switch? You'll love it.
What is this switch you speak of, I'm assuming you are not referring to the TCS off button? There is a switch for the center differential??
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Old 07-09-2010, 07:38 PM   #22
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the c diff lock switch locks the c diff into 50/50 mode. normally its 90/10 until it senses slip.
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Old 07-10-2010, 02:46 AM   #23
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Default wow congrats

great post, at last some one doing some tune on our n/a cars obviously we wont get those great gain tunes of turbo guys buy some improvement always its welcome and not the usuall sell it and get a wrx frace.

im trying to get the definition for my 09 2.5i jdm on romraider forums maybe the japanise maps can show something diferent or interesting.

and a question does really the 4eat transmision its 90 fwd and 10% rear ? on the 08-10 years?
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Old 07-10-2010, 05:29 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kewlboxer2 View Post
the c diff lock switch locks the c diff into 50/50 mode. normally its 90/10 until it senses slip.
Where is this switch that you speak of
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Old 07-10-2010, 03:45 PM   #25
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Where is this switch that you speak of

http://www.rs25.com/forums/f8/t99075...mada-lite.html
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