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Old 07-21-2010, 12:11 AM   #1
salvator_rizzo
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Default Bad Sounds after Engine Rebuild (video inside)

I just rebuilt a 99 RS ej25 for my car today. I spent a good amount of money at the machine shop getting all the parts serviced.

I basically had everything redone. Reseated the valves, shaved the heads, shaved the block mating services, line bored the block, rehoned the cylinders, bored out the rods for new bearings, all new rod and main bearings, ground/shaved the crankshaft, new piston rings, new hg's, new timing belt etc etc
everything that should be replaced/maintained was done so it could be done right.

I finished up everything today and went to start the car but it took a little coercing to get it started. Once it did, it didnt sound very good. There was a bit of mild (not loud) popping from the exhaust (stock) and some pinging from the motor.

The car idles, but it almost sounds like its running off 3 cylinders or something. air coming out of the exhaust doesn't feel as even as it should

It's when you give it gas it doesnt want to rev up

Also, when the car was off it sounded like there was oil or something burning in the header, a sizzling sound if you know what I mean.

I'm pretty sure the timing is right. Went by factory specs and everything, cams were definitely lined up, crank at tdc belt was new/tight etc

I have no idea what is going on. really disappointed right now I just spent a ton of money and time on this and now it **** on me



just for timing sake you can kind of see the timing marks on the cams and the crank if you look close enough, definitely lined up
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Last edited by salvator_rizzo; 07-21-2010 at 12:49 AM.
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Old 07-21-2010, 12:51 AM   #2
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Old 07-21-2010, 04:23 AM   #3
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I know virtually nothing about this... but why not perform some basic tests to eliminate some things...

Compression test

Leakdown test

Spark test

Have you done these?
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Old 07-21-2010, 09:14 AM   #4
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Something is wrong timing wise.

#1 - Do you have a CEL? If so, read it and go from there. My guess is several misfire codes.

#2 - When you lined everything up to put the timing belt on, you should NOT go by TDC. There are small (easily missed) slash marks on the face of the cam gears - these point up, NOT the arrows. Also, there is a small slash on one of the tabs on the REAR of the crank sprocket. THIS points up, NOT the arrow. Line the marks up on the timing belt with these alignment marks (and NOT the cuts on the timing belt cover), count the teeth, and be 100% sure this is correct.

#3 - Verify you're getting spark on all 4 cylinders (pull the plug out, attach the boot to it, hold it near the intake manifold and crank the starter. Repeat until you're through all 4 or you find one that doesn't have spark.

I haven't done a lot of rebuilds like this but it sounds a lot like you have major timing issues.

--Andy
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Old 07-21-2010, 09:56 AM   #5
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I just finished one and had a similar problem. If you have an IR thermometer, use it to find the coldest cylinder by pointing it at each head on the bottom,( or each exhaust header if it is dual port). If you don't have an IR, wait until the engine is cold and use a grease pencil on each one and see which one melts last after you start it. My guess is the cold cylinder valves are not adjusted properly, or as in my case a couple bolts in the rocker shaft support on the head are loose. I guess mine were not properly torqued when we put the cam case back on. If you don't want to run it until you know, do a compression check to find the flat cylinder- then check the valve clearance.
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Old 07-22-2010, 12:28 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crashsector View Post
Something is wrong timing wise.

#1 - Do you have a CEL? If so, read it and go from there. My guess is several misfire codes.

#2 - When you lined everything up to put the timing belt on, you should NOT go by TDC. There are small (easily missed) slash marks on the face of the cam gears - these point up, NOT the arrows. Also, there is a small slash on one of the tabs on the REAR of the crank sprocket. THIS points up, NOT the arrow. Line the marks up on the timing belt with these alignment marks (and NOT the cuts on the timing belt cover), count the teeth, and be 100% sure this is correct.

#3 - Verify you're getting spark on all 4 cylinders (pull the plug out, attach the boot to it, hold it near the intake manifold and crank the starter. Repeat until you're through all 4 or you find one that doesn't have spark.

I haven't done a lot of rebuilds like this but it sounds a lot like you have major timing issues.

--Andy
1 - Yes I have a CEL. Not flashing but you are probably right, I can imagine it is most likely a ton of misfire codes. Is there a cheap/free way to get the codes pulled? I don't own a code reader.

2 - The way i lined up the cam sprockets was with the lines marked on the cam sprockets and the line on the crank sprocket as show here. Not the arrows but the marks themselves as the FSM noted.





I really hope it is timing related I should pull the covers off and check again to make sure. I don't really know for sure I've never dealt with this before

3 - I'll check spark too. I cant see why it suddenly wouldn't work but I'll check it out asap
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Old 07-22-2010, 11:13 AM   #7
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The timing looks fine for pre-start. How does it look now? Your sounds seem intermittent, so I doubt it's timing. Like has been suggested, how's the valve lash? When the car is running, try spraying some water on the plug wires to see if the problem gets worse.

Yes, you should have mentioned a CEL, always tell us that if really want help. Your car's ECU knows a helluva a lot more than we do. You can go to autozone and get it pulled, although I've heard that CA stores won't do this anymore. Call ahead. You may have to get a code reader.
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Old 07-22-2010, 08:32 PM   #8
Crashsector
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Quote:
Originally Posted by salvator_rizzo View Post
1 - Yes I have a CEL. Not flashing but you are probably right, I can imagine it is most likely a ton of misfire codes. Is there a cheap/free way to get the codes pulled? I don't own a code reader.
I bought this:

http://shop.advanceautoparts.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_PocketScan-Plus-Code-Reader-Actron_9090012-P_N3389_T|GRP2018____

Hopefully you can find it.

--Andy
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Old 07-23-2010, 01:15 AM   #9
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o thats cool. I'll call around and see if I can find one locally, i dont really have time to wait.

As for the timing, I have not looked at it since I started it, been pretty busy atm :/

I would bring the car, but it barely runs and i live 20 minutes from anything
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Old 07-23-2010, 01:17 AM   #10
lavid2002
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Dumb question... but did you point the arrows the right way on the timing belt? (The belt oriented in the right direction)
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Old 07-23-2010, 09:41 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by salvator_rizzo View Post
o thats cool. I'll call around and see if I can find one locally, i dont really have time to wait.

As for the timing, I have not looked at it since I started it, been pretty busy atm :/

I would bring the car, but it barely runs and i live 20 minutes from anything
Don't worry about the cam timing. You had it right to start, it won't move unless something broke,. Check the valve clearances, then let us know.
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Old 07-24-2010, 01:22 AM   #12
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would valve clearances being off make the car completely run like crap? I thought maybe it might be a little bad or off but not horrible.

I wish I could show you guys what it sounded like. My camera is pretty bad but the noise is pretty damn bad.

anyway
didnt have the chance to get a code reader today, i'll see if i can pick one up tomorrow. Checked the timing today to be sure, and this is what I see.

yea the passenger cam gear is chipped in one spot but it still holds a lip to hold the belt on. Also, the marker/black line in the last picture is something i drew dont let that distract you

passenger side cam sprocket


Crank sprocket


Driver's side Cam sprocket
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Old 07-24-2010, 09:15 AM   #13
Crashsector
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There are no timing marks on your timing belt. That could be part of your problem. Several people have found that those notches in the back of the timing belt cover have a margin of error of up to +/- 2 teeth in either direction.

Your next option is to count teeth on the timing belt. I only have tooth counts for a DOHC engine - maybe someone on here has it for a SOHC.

The DOHC engine lists 54.5 teeth from the passenger cam gear timing mark to the crank timing mark, and 51 teeth from the crank timing mark to the drivers cam gear timing mark. I would compare this to yours but do NOT take it as gospel as I do not know if those counts are the same for your engine.

Do you have a feeler gauge to check the valve clearances? That would definitely be something I would do before starting it again.

Triple-check that your plug wires are hooked up in the correct order too.

Good luck - keep us posted.

--Andy

EDIT Are you using that neon green slash mark on the crank sprocket as your timing mark? If so, that's wrong. There will be a slash on one of the protrusions on the back of the sprocket - that is what you want to use. The angle of your picture has the crank sensor blocking the top rear of the sprocket, so I can't see if that is lined up correctly or not. I think it may be mirrored on the back, so you may be in the clear. Just can't tell from your picture.

EDIT 2 The FSM for my 2008 (with a SOHC 2.5) lists 46.8 teeth from passenger to crank and 43.7 from crank to drivers. Do with that what you will.

Last edited by Crashsector; 07-24-2010 at 09:28 AM.
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Old 07-24-2010, 09:31 AM   #14
Crashsector
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Random thought. Unplug your MAF and see if it runs better.

After watching the video again it sounds like you may have a decent size vacuum leak.

--Andy
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Old 07-24-2010, 12:58 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crashsector View Post
There are no timing marks on your timing belt. That could be part of your problem. Several people have found that those notches in the back of the timing belt cover have a margin of error of up to +/- 2 teeth in either direction.

Your next option is to count teeth on the timing belt. I only have tooth counts for a DOHC engine - maybe someone on here has it for a SOHC.

The DOHC engine lists 54.5 teeth from the passenger cam gear timing mark to the crank timing mark, and 51 teeth from the crank timing mark to the drivers cam gear timing mark. I would compare this to yours but do NOT take it as gospel as I do not know if those counts are the same for your engine.

Do you have a feeler gauge to check the valve clearances? That would definitely be something I would do before starting it again.

Triple-check that your plug wires are hooked up in the correct order too.

Good luck - keep us posted.

--Andy

EDIT Are you using that neon green slash mark on the crank sprocket as your timing mark? If so, that's wrong. There will be a slash on one of the protrusions on the back of the sprocket - that is what you want to use. The angle of your picture has the crank sensor blocking the top rear of the sprocket, so I can't see if that is lined up correctly or not. I think it may be mirrored on the back, so you may be in the clear. Just can't tell from your picture.

EDIT 2 The FSM for my 2008 (with a SOHC 2.5) lists 46.8 teeth from passenger to crank and 43.7 from crank to drivers. Do with that what you will.
wow thanks for the info I will check that when I get home. The green mark on the crank sprocket is in the same position as the main timing mark at the back of the sprocket like you said. I just can't get a decent picture as the radiator is in the way. I'll count some teeth later.

I do have feeler gauges so i can check that as well.
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Old 07-25-2010, 12:30 AM   #16
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Got a code reader. the car has 2 codes, both the same thing:

P0336 Crankshaft position sensor circuit range/performance problem

what does this mean?

going out to check teeth now..
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Old 07-25-2010, 12:50 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crashsector View Post
EDIT 2 The FSM for my 2008 (with a SOHC 2.5) lists 46.8 teeth from passenger to crank and 43.7 from crank to drivers. Do with that what you will.
the way i started counting might be slightly different but here is what i have.

Passenger to crank - 47 + change

Crank to Driver - 44 + some
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Old 07-25-2010, 09:06 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by salvator_rizzo View Post
Got a code reader. the car has 2 codes, both the same thing:

P0336 Crankshaft position sensor circuit range/performance problem

what does this mean?

going out to check teeth now..
This is probably exactly what is causing the problem.

Either something is horribly wrong with the timing itself, which from what you've said doesn't seem so, or the cam sensor isn't working correctly. Double-check and make sure it's plugged in at the sensor. If it is, trace the wire all the way back under the intake manifold. It plugs in to the rest of the engine harness somewhere underneath the throttle body. Double-check that it's plugged in here.

If all of that is OK, you may try to swap over a cam sensor from a working car. I don't know if you have another so you may want to pick one up from the dealer.

I'd be interested to have Matt Monson chime in... he has a lot more insight on problems like this than I do.

Good luck!

--Andy

Last edited by Crashsector; 07-25-2010 at 09:13 AM.
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Old 07-25-2010, 09:09 AM   #19
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From my 2008 FSM:

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Old 07-25-2010, 12:56 PM   #20
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its #2. Found out from rs25 that could be a problem as well. The crank sprocket has a broken tooth. I must have broken that at some point. I hear its about 30 bucks at a dealer so we'll see what happens monday.

Thanks for all the help
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Old 07-26-2010, 05:49 PM   #21
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car sounds a million times better. More like, well you know, normal.

Except it is still throwing that P0336 code that won't delete. And there is a light sound coming from the driver's side head. not sure what that is. Car revs up as normal. Idles a little rough though
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Old 07-27-2010, 09:18 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by eppoh View Post
Don't worry about the cam timing. You had it right to start, it won't move unless something broke,. Check the valve clearances, then let us know.
Uh huh. Crank sprocket? Any idea how it broke?
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Old 07-27-2010, 02:28 PM   #23
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That was the problem. I bought a new one and things have been a lot better except for that noise i just mentioned.

Still has the P0336 code and some sort of noise from the driver's head area
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