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Old 08-11-2010, 09:00 AM   #1
sti robot
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Default robot's open source tuning journal

I've decided to move away from the cobb AP and do some of my own tuning.

Here are my goals:
1) Have a reliable/safe tune.
2) Learn about how the system works.
3) Make a little more power/be able to add and tweak for small mods myself.

What am I doing currently to further this (todo/doing list):
-Just ordered a VAG-COM cable for logging and possibly flashing.
-I'm going to sell my AP in the next couple of week and flash a base map (not sure who's map to start with)
-As soon as the cable gets in take a couple of logs every week when I drive the car (I only drive the car once a week for about 2 hours total).
-Car has a boost leak/isn't hitting target boost at the moment. I need to fix this before I can go any further.

What the car has:
-04 sti with 46k on the clock.
-Invidia catted/divorced downpipe,

The slow plan:
-Fuel pump
-Injectors (750 cc)
-solenoid
-inlet
-turbo (18g or similar)

Logging so far:
-Not much, I did a learning view to see how things look at the moment (see next post)

I've done the pre-req reading and I'm doing the re-reading right now.
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Old 08-11-2010, 09:09 AM   #2
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Once you really get into tuning the fun part about Opensource is the tons of helpfull worksheets and tools available. Airboy's spreedsheet is one of the cooler ones.
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Old 08-11-2010, 09:27 AM   #3
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Currently the car is protuned (it's Cobb Stg +2 plus some tweaks).

Learning view (taken about 50 miles after resetting the ecu):


This thread discusses what it means: http://www.romraider.com/forum/viewt...hp?f=33&t=4899

And from what I can gather the car is healthy for the most part.
-IAM of 1 means, roughly, that no significant knock is detected and boost, timing, fueling, etc. can work as "planned"
-FLKC only shows a correction of -.35 in the rpm range I probably cruise in. This is, according to what I've read, a small amount of timing change. (Quick editorial, when I read about all this tuning stuff people say things like, "increase the timing a little", "nudge the target boost up a bit here", but without telling me what "a little" or "a lot" means in certain circumstances I'm left to guessing the scale of these terms).
-A/F learning has me a little stumped. I read this: http://www.romraider.com/forum/viewt...hp?f=33&t=4899, and I understand that it's a learned A/F correction done during closed loop mode. But, what's good and what's bad, what's a lot and what's a little? I'm inclined to say that the negative in B is small and that according to the thread linked above this range is hardly ever seen?

I need to do another learning view snapshot after driving more to see how things have settled in (keep in mind I'm cranking the AC in some humid 95+ deg F weather).
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Old 08-11-2010, 12:44 PM   #4
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minor update.

Just bought an LC-1 with sensor.

So, this begs the question: weld in a bung (and where) or get an exhaust clamp?
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Old 08-11-2010, 01:05 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sti robot View Post
minor update.

Just bought an LC-1 with sensor.

So, this begs the question: weld in a bung (and where) or get an exhaust clamp?
12-16 inches from turbo weld in bung! Cobbs map is usually rich so dont be surprised if you see 10.2-10.4 AFR under WOT

now AFR learning fuel trims..A-usually idle, B and C are cruise D is WOT
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Old 08-11-2010, 06:18 PM   #6
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You want to adjust your MAF scaling until you get you AF Learning within 5%. You might wanna work on your C and D scalings.

Scaling your MAF is also a goo 1st project to get started in tuning and will help you understand tuning better.

This will get you started.

http://www.romraider.com/forum/viewt...hp?f=33&t=5404
http://www.romraider.com/forum/viewt...hp?f=33&t=5321
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Old 08-12-2010, 08:06 AM   #7
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more information for the "audience"

These are the dyno plots from the protune from a little while ago:







As you can see target peak boost is ~18psi. I'm only hitting 15 or 16psi.

I have some crummy logs that show 3200 (and up) rpm, full throttle, boost at ~16psi, 66% WDC, target boost at 17.3 psi. Once I get the cable I'll get some better logs.

Here is one: https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?...thkey=CMSCktEG

Last edited by sti robot; 08-12-2010 at 08:40 AM.
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Old 08-13-2010, 12:27 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sti robot View Post
And from what I can gather the car is healthy for the most part.
-IAM of 1 means, roughly, that no significant knock is detected and boost, timing, fueling, etc. can work as "planned"
-FLKC only shows a correction of -.35 in the rpm range I probably cruise in. This is, according to what I've read, a small amount of timing change. (Quick editorial, when I read about all this tuning stuff people say things like, "increase the timing a little", "nudge the target boost up a bit here", but without telling me what "a little" or "a lot" means in certain circumstances I'm left to guessing the scale of these terms).
-A/F learning has me a little stumped. I read this: http://www.romraider.com/forum/viewt...hp?f=33&t=4899, and I understand that it's a learned A/F correction done during closed loop mode. But, what's good and what's bad, what's a lot and what's a little? I'm inclined to say that the negative in B is small and that according to the thread linked above this range is hardly ever seen?

I need to do another learning view snapshot after driving more to see how things have settled in (keep in mind I'm cranking the AC in some humid 95+ deg F weather).
You're reading it correctly.

Increase timing a little = add 1 degree, do some logging, see if it's knocking where you added timing, add more if not, remove 1 degree if so. Basically, for a given AFR, RPM, and load, you can run X degrees of timing without knocking. I find X by advancing timing until it knocks, then back down a degree or two.

Sometimes you'll get random knocks for no particular reason, so you have to do 2-3 pulls to see if you're getting repeatable knock or not. So it might be more reasonable to say "turn it up until it knocks consistently." Twice in a row is "consistent." One knock in five pulls is noise. In between, I dunno.

I try to get the 40+ AF Learning as small as possible, which means +/- 1% or so. The last few paragraphs at that link will explain why. +/- 5% is good enough for the others IMO.

However, if you're getting into tuning, trying to bring the fuel trims close to zero is a good first project. I suggest using the MAF scaling feature of RomRaider's logger, but make the changes to the ROM yourself, and use Excel to visualize the MAF curve. Make changes about half as much as what RomRaider's maf scaling tool recommends. And keep in mind that there is a lot of noise in the data - assume that everything that RR is recommending is only accurate within 2-3 percent, and try go figure out what the real trends are, behind that noise.

Keep in mind the while Learning View is a nice way to get a rough idea of how good your tune is, there isn't much you can do the tune based on the information shown by Learning View. You'll generally need data logs to get enough information to actually make changes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sti robot View Post
Just bought an LC-1 with sensor.

So, this begs the question: weld in a bung (and where) or get an exhaust clamp?
Bung, in the downpipe, upstream of the cat if you have one. It should be in the upper 1/3 of the pipe (as viewed from the front or back) so that water (condensation) doesn't collect on the sensor.
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Old 08-13-2010, 06:58 AM   #9
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Awesome information, thanks.

Unfortunately the tune I have now sort of stands as it is and will go away (since it is an accessport protune) once I unmarry the accessport.

I'm looking for a good stg II starting point and will go from there.
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Old 08-13-2010, 01:42 PM   #10
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What version AP?
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Old 08-13-2010, 01:52 PM   #11
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version 2.
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Old 08-13-2010, 02:16 PM   #12
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I will be watching this as I am COBB AP tuned as well and am looking to go open source. I have an 05 STI with COBB Turboback exhaust. Running Cobb's stg2 92oct map currently. I too am looking for a comparable stg2 map as the one I have now will go away once I divorce the AP.
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Old 08-13-2010, 08:37 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by photodude View Post
I will be watching this as I am COBB AP tuned as well and am looking to go open source. I have an 05 STI with COBB Turboback exhaust. Running Cobb's stg2 92oct map currently. I too am looking for a comparable stg2 map as the one I have now will go away once I divorce the AP.
Romraider has a "base map" subforum..........
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Old 08-14-2010, 09:24 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quazimoto View Post
Romraider has a "base map" subforum..........
Yeah, I saw that and downloaded the basemap.. I'm still doing some research before I divorce this thing. I don't have a tactrix, but I do have a vag-com and TON of computer knowledge. I'm hoping I can get the cag-com working on my 05 STi as others have. Wish there was a way to read the map that is on the vehicle, but the Cobb AP locks the ECU.
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Old 08-16-2010, 09:29 PM   #15
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I received my VAG-COM cable tonight and went out for a little logging.

LearningView First:
Before driving
A/F learning looks like this: .70, -2.6, 2.7, 5.20
After 5-7 WOT pulls and about 15 minutes of normal driving after
A/F learning looks like this: -2, -2.8, 2.7, 5.2
Fine learning looks the same as the picture above.

Now on to the logs:
-First I logged knock strategy according to this thread: http://www.romraider.com/forum/viewt...hp?f=33&t=5384
-Feedback and Fine Knock correction are 0's throughout on most log.
-On this log, however, I have some correction: https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?...thkey=CJqIz6YP
-Feedback knock correction of -4 or -3 isn't much right? (I'm an idiot and can't remember which gear (probably 4th, maybe 5th))
-Then I logged boost.
-Not sure if these are useful (probably not) https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?...thkey=CMKj_8UO
-https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0AohNfnevtc8ndFY3OGltbUswYjMxdmo1MF9wQmo2U Xc&hl=en&authkey=CP2J8sAD

I'll be driving in mixed traffic/cruising later this week. What shall I log?

Last edited by sti robot; 08-16-2010 at 09:58 PM.
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Old 08-16-2010, 10:37 PM   #16
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You might want to work on your OL MAF scaling a little, but it's pretty close. You would need a WB02 to do that.

FBKC of -4 is BAD! Really any constitent FBKC ant any givern load and rpm is bad. I say consistent because if you do 5 logs and only get 1 log with knock that is most likely a false knock, but if you get knock in 2-3+ of those logs your car is knocking. Ideally you don't want to see any FBKC.

If you see a little FLKC in your learning view such as -.70 or less that is alright because conditions are never the same. But if you see more then that, then you need to invertigate it further and adjust the tune.

That log is most likely 4th unless you were going like 130mph. When you do your logs start from around 2k.
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Old 08-17-2010, 02:35 AM   #17
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When I wrote that "how to make useful data logs" thing, I had seen a few people post logs with 20+ parameters, and I think I was a little too hard-core about not logging extraneous stuff. The "general purpose" list is what you should generally be using, unless you want to investigate something specific. I'll probably move that section up to the top to make that more clear.

Logging the knock control stuff by itself will either be boring (if your tune is good, you won't be knocking) or frustrating (if you're knocking, you'll want to see what else is going on).

It is not unusual to see FLKC increment (well... get more negative) during rapid throttle changes. However in that one log you posted, the ECU pulled 2 degrees, and then shortly afterward pulled another 2 degrees. That makes me think something is up. Less timing might help, or a richer AFR might help... but since you didn't log total timing or AFR, it's impossible to say which you should try first. (See what I mean?)

Regarding your "what should I log?" question, I'd have to ask "why are you logging?"

My guess is that you want to learn about what's going on in the ECU in cruise. In that case, log these:

RPM
Load
Throttle plate angle
AF Correction #1
AF Learning #1
AF Sensor #1
Closed loop fueling target
CL/OL fueling mode (8 means closed, 10 means open... I might have those backward)
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Old 08-17-2010, 07:00 AM   #18
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Cool. Thanks. I'll log those a few times later this week and see what's up.
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Old 08-20-2010, 03:54 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NSFW View Post
My guess is that you want to learn about what's going on in the ECU in cruise. In that case, log these:

RPM
Load
Throttle plate angle
AF Correction #1
AF Learning #1
AF Sensor #1
Closed loop fueling target
CL/OL fueling mode (8 means closed, 10 means open... I might have those backward)
Ok, logged what you said to. Now what does it mean?

Also, should one select 4 byte version of certain variables? What I read made it seem like this was more accurate, but took more bandwidth to pass over the cable.

Here is a sampling of the logs (I have a bunch more, and I'll post the interesting ones, once I know what I'm looking at).

Most of these are highway driving, mostly CL usually 2k-3k rpm.
https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?...thkey=CL_n6c8B

https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?...thkey=COH67_0I

According to this post by Merchgod, http://www.romraider.com/forum/topic...=af%20learning, AF Correction #1 is your car trying to reach stoich in CL fueling live. So it's all over the map naturally. I'm not sure how much it should swing around though. What's healthy? Can it get into trouble "hunting" for stoich, by swinging back and forth like a pendulum?

Graphing throttle plate position and af correction #1 is interesting.
-When it switches to OL fueling it goes rich quickly. Seems right to me.
-AF correction appears correlated to both throttle and the af sensor. This also seems correct/makes some sense.
-At cruise should the AF correction be positive like that all the time? Or is this just a pointer to the "strategy" employed by my tuner?
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Old 08-20-2010, 11:51 PM   #20
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I never log 4-byte values. The 2-byte values give enough resolution. While the 4-byte values are more precise, I don't think they're more accurate. There are too many other things making them inaccurate in the first place - sensor noise, time delay between logging each parameter, and so on.

AF Correction #1 is basically just noise in my opinion. MAF sensor reading are a little bit noisy, O2 sensor readings are a little bit noisy, and both of those combine to create a noisy AF Correction. The ECU averages out the AF Correction over time and produces the AF Learning values. AF Learning is interesting, but I think that AF Correction can and should be ignored. If the MAF scaling is good, and if AF Learning has had time to settle in (which can take a while, especially in the 40+ MAF range), you'll see AF Correction fluttering around zero, sometimes higher and sometimes lower.

If AF correction was positive during cruise, I'd expect to see AF Learning changing slowly so that AF correction moves closer to zero. But the process can take time, and unless you can hold constant throttle for quite a while (more specifically, constant MAF), it's hard to capture.
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Old 08-21-2010, 08:01 PM   #21
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Thanks for the input.

I'll log again more this coming week.

NSFW...you are everywhere helping everyone btw. If I'm ever in WA I owe you a beer.
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Old 08-26-2010, 10:14 PM   #22
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Did some logging on the way home today. I was looking for knock and I found some. Bummers.

Bullet point summary:
-90 deg F humid, commuting, ac on, I logged mostly cruising
- -6 is the most timing I've seen pulled.
-IAM was always 1 and I see intermittent fine corrections of -.35 (also seen in learningview)
-timing was pulled while cruising at around 2600-2800 rpm. I can't seem to find the commonality with the knock events.
-Usually pulled -2 and up to -4 and then cleared up. Sometimes it pulled -4 right off the bat and then went down.
-I was in a rush and logged the 4-byte values (does this matter for knock correction?)

Links to the spreadsheets for the curious (I highlighted some of the knock events so they can be found easily). Looking at the first one should give you a good idea of what's going on. The second is pretty boring. The third has a significant knock event at line 873 (-6, lasts for 30 lines).

https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?...IB&hl=en#gid=0

https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?...wI&hl=en#gid=0

https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?...gB&hl=en#gid=0


Questions: Given that I have a boost leak that I can hear and this knock, should I get it all fixed before autoxing this weekend? (I'm thinking, reluctantly, yes).

I'm also considering biting the bullet and going to a professional to get this all cleared up. Unfortunately this will preclude the open source switch. Bummers again.

Does the maf need cleaning (hasn't been cleaned in a while)?
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Old 08-27-2010, 12:04 AM   #23
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That knock was almost entirely below 1.0 load and 3000 RPM, so I wouldn't lose too much sleep over it.

It would be interesting to try reducing timing in that area if your tune has anything higher than 38 degrees or so. (38 isn't a magic number it's just what I capped mine at to mitigate shift knock.) But there's a good chance that timing and fueling changes won't help, and if they don't then you can chalk it up to noise.

The boost leak is the bigger nuisance probably. How bad is it?

I'd probably AX anyway and spend all the time between runs searching for the leak and tightening stuff.

Logging 4-byte values doesn't do any real harm, it just slows down the logging rate a bit.
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Old 08-27-2010, 06:26 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NSFW View Post
The boost leak is the bigger nuisance probably. How bad is it?

I'd probably AX anyway and spend all the time between runs searching for the leak and tightening stuff.
The boost leak is obvious when driving, but not when poking around the engine bay.

I should be hitting 19psi, but i'm only seeing 16ish and I can hear a sound of air rushing out of a small opening at WOT.

Thanks again for the responses.
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Old 08-27-2010, 08:22 AM   #25
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I've had considerable problems getting my turbo outlet hose to secure well, I ended up getting a band clamp from McMAster Carr. I don't remember the size i bought, but this part number, 5204K11, will get you in the family.

Check out: http://www.mcmaster.com/#hose-and-tube-clamps/=8l2gny

Once I got quality T-bolt clamps, I was able to stop the boost leak, but not until then. So that's a thought for you, turbo outlet, int c inlet hose, replace those shoddy worm gear hose clamps.
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