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Old 08-17-2010, 09:37 AM   #1
Payback45
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Default Thermo and cam seals Now?

Is it a good idea to change the cam seals and thermo when doing a timing belt job?
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Old 08-17-2010, 11:25 AM   #2
PhilSine
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Yes.

Also do the front oil pump seal and install a new water pump.
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Old 08-17-2010, 11:48 AM   #3
Payback45
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The water pump will be done. Is the front oil pump seal a big deal to change? is it expensive?
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Old 08-18-2010, 01:57 AM   #4
PhilSine
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Front oil pump seal costs around $8.00 and its basically the same as the cam seals in terms of removal and installation. Simply slide the crank gear off the end of the crank and go from there.
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Old 08-18-2010, 10:22 AM   #5
Patrick Olsen
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I vote no on the cam seals and the water pump. I think people on this forum love to do unnecessary preventive maintenance based on a ridiculously small sample of data.
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Old 08-19-2010, 02:42 AM   #6
PhilSine
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Olsen View Post
I vote no on the cam seals and the water pump. I think people on this forum love to do unnecessary preventive maintenance based on a ridiculously small sample of data.

So, what you're saying is that its a better idea to skip the $8.00 seals and $50 water pump and gamble that they will both last until the next timing belt is needed?

If you do not do the seals when you have things apart already and they happen to fail within the next 100k miles (and they often do) then you'll need to spend another 3-5 hrs of your time and another $12 on coolant to replace them.

If you do not replace your water pump when you have things apart already and it happens to fail within the next 100k miles (and they often do) then you'll need to spend another 3-5 hrs of your time and another $12 on coolant when you replace it. Even worse is the prospect of a water pump failure where it siezes and chews the timing belt thus taking the valves with it. While water pumps do not typically fail in this fashion, do you really want to risk it?
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Old 08-19-2010, 03:42 AM   #7
Henry H
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With an intensive 105k maintenance interval with relatively cheap parts, I tend to agree with Phil.

FWIW I do my timing belt along with my 90k maintenance. You'd have to have had your car for 720,000 miles to "waste" an extra timing belt change.
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Old 08-19-2010, 09:50 AM   #8
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I would highly recommend doing the water pump and changing the oil pump seal when doing the timing belt. It's easy, will cost you less than $100 and save you hours of labor down the road because one of the two are bound to start failing before you are due for another timing belt change. You don't have to do the thermostat but if you are removing the water pump you will have to drain the coolant so swapping it then will save you another coolant flush.

It is also not a bad idea to do the cam seals. Removing the cam sprockets can be a real PITA but once they are off swapping the seals are easy.
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Old 08-19-2010, 02:03 PM   #9
Patrick Olsen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilSine View Post
So, what you're saying is that its a better idea to skip the $8.00 seals and $50 water pump and gamble that they will both last until the next timing belt is needed?
Yes, because I don't think it's a gamble. If you can provide data that shows that there's a high failure rate, then I'll change my mind. (Note that anecdotal evidence on NASIOC is not data.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilSine View Post
If you do not do the seals when you have things apart already and they happen to fail within the next 100k miles (and they often do) then you'll need to spend another 3-5 hrs of your time and another $12 on coolant to replace them.
How often is "often"? Do you have any data that shows how frequently the cam seals start to leak vs. mileage? And at what point does a cam seal leak really matter?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilSine View Post
If you do not replace your water pump when you have things apart already and it happens to fail within the next 100k miles (and they often do) then you'll need to spend another 3-5 hrs of your time and another $12 on coolant when you replace it.
How often is "often"? Do you have any data that shows how frequently water pumps fail vs. mileage?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilSine View Post
Even worse is the prospect of a water pump failure where it siezes and chews the timing belt thus taking the valves with it. While water pumps do not typically fail in this fashion, do you really want to risk it?
Again, yes, because I don't think it's much of a risk at all. Obviously the stakes are higher for a water pump failure than for a cam seal leak, but either way I think the likelihood of failure is very small. Of course, I base that only on my own anecdotal evidence - we've had 3 high mileage Subarus in my family and I've never seen a WP failure.

Preventive maintenance (replacing something "while you're in there") is basically just risk management. I don't think the risk of failure of those components is high enough to justify doing any extra work to replace them. Others may have a different assessment of the risk. Such is life.

Pat
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