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Old 12-07-2012, 10:35 PM   #1701
Layvon
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No problem dude I'm glad it worked out.

I hope you get some good data from the in your car is stronger. Or at least safer.

Will you let me know what channel you put that into?
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Old 12-11-2012, 03:38 PM   #1702
Bariga
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why didn't link made the knock block case shielded? I get crazy static every where except glove box Also the connectors are wacky, if you touch them with wires connected it would distort like mofo seems like poor connector to board soldering.

For $650 bucks i was expecting little more, maybe its just me and my high expectations?
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Old 12-11-2012, 03:41 PM   #1703
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bariga View Post
why didn't link made the knock block case shielded? Also the connectors are wacky, if you touch them with wires connected it would distort like mofo seems like poor connector to board soldering.

For $650 bucks i was expecting little more, maybe its just me and my high expectations?
Did you say high? Haha...sorry Anton I couldn't resist. Sounds to me like you would have to fasten down the wiring looms so they don't move around. That is funky though as you describe.
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Old 12-11-2012, 04:27 PM   #1704
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bariga View Post
why didn't link made the knock block case shielded? I get crazy static every where except glove box Also the connectors are wacky, if you touch them with wires connected it would distort like mofo seems like poor connector to board soldering.

For $650 bucks i was expecting little more, maybe its just me and my high expectations?
Good to know!
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Old 12-11-2012, 05:28 PM   #1705
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bariga View Post
why didn't link made the knock block case shielded? I get crazy static every where except glove box Also the connectors are wacky, if you touch them with wires connected it would distort like mofo seems like poor connector to board soldering.

For $650 bucks i was expecting little more, maybe its just me and my high expectations?
Sounds to me like the knock block is floating...
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Old 12-11-2012, 06:04 PM   #1706
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joshuaj View Post
Sounds to me like the knock block is floating...
Do you think it's just too high?
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Old 12-11-2012, 06:24 PM   #1707
Bariga
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not yet hahaha

If it was mine i would take it apart, glue foil on plastic case and ground it.

I hooked up knockblock 5 volt singal to vipec as side reference to build in one, will be raising timing and looking for engine noise changes
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Old 12-11-2012, 10:11 PM   #1708
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What DI port did you use? #6?
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Old 12-11-2012, 10:37 PM   #1709
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Layvon View Post
What DI port did you use? #6?
i only used an volt, just to compare.


I raised timing and did get ping noise in head phones





4100 rpm 17 psi and 14.7 timing, any ideas?
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Old 12-12-2012, 12:03 AM   #1710
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How much is the timing in peak?
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Old 12-12-2012, 12:03 AM   #1711
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bariga View Post

i only used an volt, just to compare.

I raised timing and did get ping noise in head phones

4100 rpm 17 psi and 14.7 timing, any ideas?
I can't read the load but if that's peak torque it might be a tad high.
Did you lower the boost so that's peak boost? If Dom tuned it for higher boost than maybe he intended for lower timing at a higher load at that rpm. You want to be careful around peak torque.
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Old 12-12-2012, 12:23 AM   #1712
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yeah peak torq is around 4 - 4.5 rpm

It's now fully out of my knowledge why its not happy with higher timing "people run 15+ in that area safe"

Fuel AFR is at 11s everything looks good on logs, sparkplugs are new "denso 1 step colder"
Only thing i can think of is lean it out a bit to 12s before 4500 and see if anything changes, to much fuel low timing can couse detonation?
Maybe Dom can add something

Last edited by Bariga; 12-12-2012 at 01:07 AM.
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Old 12-12-2012, 02:40 AM   #1713
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bariga View Post
yeah peak torq is around 4 - 4.5 rpm

It's now fully out of my knowledge why its not happy with higher timing "people run 15+ in that area safe"

Fuel AFR is at 11s everything looks good on logs, sparkplugs are new "denso 1 step colder"
Only thing i can think of is lean it out a bit to 12s before 4500 and see if anything changes, to much fuel low timing can couse detonation?
Maybe Dom can add something
You want enrichment near peak torque and consider that the curve starts from peak torque and on.
The other sensitive area is the Avcs roll off. You want to run the least amount of timing required to make the most amount of torque. You don't want to run the most amount of timing the knock sensor says is safe. You don't want engine noise near peak torque. You cannot go by other people's values since they don't have the same cams etc... Ve is not same. You go with what makes power and try to raise it the least you can. Lower timing with the most amount of torque is the game and not the most timing with least engine noise.
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Old 12-12-2012, 02:04 PM   #1714
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timing at peak torque should be under 13 degrees on that motor.
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Old 12-12-2012, 05:31 PM   #1715
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What is the purpose for borrowing the knock block? I assumed it was to identify a hot running cylinder to apply comps. Dom has already verified mbt on the dyno. I don't see any reason to mess with timing unless you want to see if there's a particular cylinder that's showing more noise than others.

This is an unrelated question but does the vipec have alternator voltage control?
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Old 12-12-2012, 07:23 PM   #1716
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First off, Bariga loves to mess with ****. That's the number one reason.

Second, with the Vipec knock control system, none of it is preset. All of it is the responsibility of the user to get calibrated properly. We did a handful of work on it on the road and dyno, but it was still lacking some. Talking with Link and tearing apart more OEM roms combined with me using my knock block amplifier has opened my eyes more to the Subaru knock strategy than before. Turns out nothing I thought was wrong, it was just incomplete. I didn't have an understanding of the severity of our valve train noise and why subaru put so much emphasis on #4 until I put the headphones on.

Short story: you can't hear cylinders 1, 2 or 3 with the knock sensor over the valvetrain. That's why Subaru doesn't bother trying. They put more timing on 4 and make it the first cylinder to knock so they can adjust global timing using the IAM (or DAM) based on that cylinder's trend. Once the ecu figures out cylinder 4, they know the other cylinders are safe.

The trick is to get the Vipec to do the same thing properly with one exception. Program the Vipec to detect cylinder 4 properly in the event of knock and yet still make sure the other cylinders aren't knocking.
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Old 12-12-2012, 07:59 PM   #1717
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Is it possible to lower the valve train noise?


Matt
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Old 12-12-2012, 08:00 PM   #1718
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Our built engines are quieter than stock when it comes to valvetrain noise. Tightening up the valve lash and/or changing cam profile is really the only way.
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Old 12-12-2012, 08:24 PM   #1719
Bariga
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxwell Power View Post
timing at peak torque should be under 13 degrees on that motor.
at 20 psi or 25?
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Old 12-12-2012, 08:33 PM   #1720
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20psi
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Old 12-12-2012, 10:02 PM   #1721
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxwell Power View Post
First off, Bariga loves to mess with ****. That's the number one reason.

Second, with the Vipec knock control system, none of it is preset. All of it is the responsibility of the user to get calibrated properly. We did a handful of work on it on the road and dyno, but it was still lacking some. Talking with Link and tearing apart more OEM roms combined with me using my knock block amplifier has opened my eyes more to the Subaru knock strategy than before. Turns out nothing I thought was wrong, it was just incomplete. I didn't have an understanding of the severity of our valve train noise and why subaru put so much emphasis on #4 until I put the headphones on.

Short story: you can't hear cylinders 1, 2 or 3 with the knock sensor over the valvetrain. That's why Subaru doesn't bother trying. They put more timing on 4 and make it the first cylinder to knock so they can adjust global timing using the IAM (or DAM) based on that cylinder's trend. Once the ecu figures out cylinder 4, they know the other cylinders are safe.

The trick is to get the Vipec to do the same thing properly with one exception. Program the Vipec to detect cylinder 4 properly in the event of knock and yet still make sure the other cylinders aren't knocking.
I haven't looked at the link software, but I'm guessing that there is no gain on the knock signal? I'm interested in the knock block now. I'll go look it up. Is the value that its converting the analog to digital for processing as opposed to just applying a threshold to the analog signal?
I've found the same by logging raw knock voltage on the ems 2, and even with the raw voltage amplified to get some readings to pass 1v its difficult to see deltas unless the knock is severe. Actually I don't even know its severe. I just know that I can't make out sharp deltas unless they're really high.
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Old 12-12-2012, 10:36 PM   #1722
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You can adjust the gain of the knock signal but I believe what Anton is trying to fine tune is the knock thresholds that the ECU uses to defines as knock. You can define a knock threshold table for each cylinder or bank if desired.
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Old 12-13-2012, 12:48 AM   #1723
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reid-o View Post
I haven't looked at the link software, but I'm guessing that there is no gain on the knock signal? I'm interested in the knock block now. I'll go look it up. Is the value that its converting the analog to digital for processing as opposed to just applying a threshold to the analog signal?
I've found the same by logging raw knock voltage on the ems 2, and even with the raw voltage amplified to get some readings to pass 1v its difficult to see deltas unless the knock is severe. Actually I don't even know its severe. I just know that I can't make out sharp deltas unless they're really high.
Knock detection is more than just a voltage threshold on advanced systems.
Knock detection is about the frequency range, the amplitude, the window, detection duration etc etc. Knowing the proper settings for this helps to eliminate false knock detection as well as more precise light knock detection on par with OEM systems. Basic systems like those found in the hydra use a generic logic applied to a simple voltage threshold for overall engine noise.

So with Bariga, it isn't like he's just checking volume. He's been working hard to find the actual frequency that the knock is occurring, while trying to balance that with background valvetrain noise and the duration of the detection window. If this was a hydra, the thresholds would have been set a few hours into the tune and not touched again. (I'm not bagging the Hydra, I'm just using it as a standard that more people are familiar with)
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Old 12-13-2012, 07:38 PM   #1724
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxwell Power View Post
Knock detection is more than just a voltage threshold on advanced systems.
Knock detection is about the frequency range, the amplitude, the window, detection duration etc etc. Knowing the proper settings for this helps to eliminate false knock detection as well as more precise light knock detection on par with OEM systems. Basic systems like those found in the hydra use a generic logic applied to a simple voltage threshold for overall engine noise.

I understand this part. I'm just wondering what this external device brings to the table to warrant its price. I downloaded the manual and understand what it does but don't understand how the logic differs from the el cheapo units like I have. I'm sure that it's much more advanced.
If I'm reading it correctly, the major benefit is the conversion of the signal (assuming all of the settings are calibrated as you mention) from analog to digital allows the unit to apply multiple algorithms simultaneously (signal processing) sort of like how MRIs have taken big leaps with new DSP strategies. It seems like something I'd have to see in action or hear other experiences.

I really like how the directions state the best way to callibrate the unit for knock is to get the car to knock. I understand what this means but it just made me laugh. I think they should put their disclaimer in bold right before this statement (with super huge font).
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Old 12-13-2012, 08:55 PM   #1725
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How hard has this been to try to pin point Anton? I'm asking you cause I know for Dominic it is probably pretty easy but for someone that hasn't don't it before might not be so easy

And for me reid-o I spoke with Dom and I could get the link with the knock block for better knock control / protection or the vipec with integrated knock control for roughly the same price. I opted to go with a little more precision and get the knock block. I'm almost wishing I had bucked up and got the V88. Seems like inputs on the pnp are at a premium or I'm a dumbass.

Last edited by Layvon; 12-13-2012 at 09:05 PM.
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