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Old 02-07-2011, 09:06 PM   #151
Bariga
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I have feeling i will have to wait for long time to get the EFR, ETA was last month......
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Old 02-07-2011, 09:55 PM   #152
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juanmedina View Post
Why so angry? I meant good luck with the built



You know whats funny, his 470whp 2.3LR 35r STi trapped 121mph the same as my VF39.......
Nobody else thought it funny when I shut down the track for 35 minutes because I spilled oil on the track and caught my car on fire on OPENING DAY (and I was the third car). But hey, if that's the trap speed you want to use as a trash talking mechanism, that's cool.

The reason I get angry (and I wasn't angry this time, just mildly irritated) is because EVERYDAY I have to deal with people who tell me what I can and can't do, people who try to discredit what I say and are always trying to prove me wrong. Sometimes, I find it hard to filter out who is kidding and who is talking trash. Sometimes I feel I shouldn't have to even try to filter it out. I've always liked you and your posts, but really, WHY DOES ANYONE IN THIS THREAD GIVE A **** WHAT YOU (or anyone else for that matter) THINK I/WE CAN ACHIEVE? Nobody asked you or really asked anyone for that matter. Yet people are always trying to tell me what they THINK and don't put up any data.

If you look at my post history, I RARELY ever post anything inflammatory. I'm not a dick, I'm not rude and I try to treat everyone with respect. (Heck, I get along with my competitors both local and international and refer business to others when I can't do it fast enough.) However, sometimes people just take themselves too damn seriously or try to spread their opinions. I give my opinions on the board, but I back them up with the facts and with experience.

In this case, with the help of NSFW, I believe that yes you could be right. If that turbo is as small as NSFW is saying, then we should have a hard time hitting 500whp. NSFW posted information and facts that aid in his reason for saying why we wouldn't hit 500whp. If you had done the same, I would not have made that joking comment.

I don't have any hard feelings and I hope you don't either. I just figured that I'd finally get my reasoning off my chest so you can understand why I made the joke about my first tune.

Peace out, home tortilla.

-Dominic
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Old 02-07-2011, 11:12 PM   #153
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I am not angry either and I have no problems with you at all, I enjoy all your posts back with technical data and back up with many year of experience. I don't know if you remember but about 2 years ago I was looking into buying and 2.3l engine built by you and Micah but I lost my job the following month and I had to settle for an engine with only forged pistons .

Anyways I was basing my comment on what NSFW and others discussed on the BW Turbo thread, since your customer was looking for 500-540whp I though it would be wise for him to know that his turbo choice might not fulfill his goal.

Yeah I understand, and there is no hard feelings.

Lets continue enjoying this wonderful thread, and no tortillas for me I am Colombian .

Juan Medina
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Old 02-07-2011, 11:17 PM   #154
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Don't get upset. If you read the Perrin/ Garrett GTX thread and then the Full Race/Borg EFR thread, you will realize quickily that Phatron, and his nut-hangers, are anti-EFR.

Not only anti-EFR, but against understanding anything involved with them, such as the available tools that we can put to use trying to understand their flow capabilities until the EFR is released and we can get some results.

Thanks for the info you have been sharing with me through PM Dom.

Bariga: this looks like a sick setup. Exactly what I want to get going, but I cannot afford. Definitely subscribed I am sure it will rip regardless of whether it hits a "magical" dyno number that haters say it will not achieve. Companies do not waste tons of R&D money just to push a product that does not show results... at least not the ones that stay in business. And I am positive that a company with the rep that Full Race has would not back a product that did not fit their needs: good spool with twinscroll, good transient response, and ripping high end
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Old 02-07-2011, 11:17 PM   #155
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Columbia has better flour , sorry it's my addict side talking.
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Old 02-07-2011, 11:18 PM   #156
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ok, hug and kisses for everyone...well Juan is Columbian; so Coffee, blow, hugs and kisses

back to cars
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Old 02-07-2011, 11:20 PM   #157
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just want to post up the picture that NSFW put a link for.

I can see what he means about the rating.... When I first saw the size/ratings (76mm/650hp) I thought it had to be inducer like Precision uses, not exducer like Garrett. However, sure enough it's exducer. For a 76mm exducer to flow 650hp at "normal" pressure ratios would be something. What's the new GTX3076R? I heard it was actually 78mm. That thing does flow 65lbm at normal ratios.


Last edited by MPS-Dom; 02-08-2011 at 01:31 PM.
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Old 02-07-2011, 11:28 PM   #158
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http://turbobygarrett.com/turbobygar...R_803713_1.htm

found my answer.

The GTX3076R is a 58 trim.
The EFR 76 is a 75 trim. That probably explains the large pressure ratios. Is that the right map for the 7670 that Bariga is getting?

The GTX is 76.6mm with a 58mm inducer.
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Old 02-07-2011, 11:40 PM   #159
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Quote:
Originally Posted by methaddict View Post
ColOmbia has better flour , sorry it's my addict side talking.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Homemade WRX View Post
ok, hug and kisses for everyone...well Juan is ColOmbian; so Coffee, blow, hugs and kisses

back to cars
fixed

I can't wait to see real world data....
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Old 02-08-2011, 12:08 AM   #160
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Originally Posted by juanmedina View Post
fixed

I can't wait to see real world data....
sorry, I'm too close to DC...the other Columbia.
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Old 02-08-2011, 02:01 AM   #161
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Originally Posted by aboothman View Post
Don't get upset. If you read the Perrin/ Garrett GTX thread and then the Full Race/Borg EFR thread, you will realize quickily that Phatron, and his nut-hangers, are anti-EFR.

Not only anti-EFR, but against understanding anything involved with them, such as the available tools that we can put to use trying to understand their flow capabilities until the EFR is released and we can get some results.
I think he (they? us?) is (are) more anti-hype than anti-EFR. Expectations are very high for the EFR turbos, but without a comparison between an EFR and another known turbo on a motor we know well, all we have are predictions and hope and hype.

Personally I don't think they will turn out substantially better than Garrett's new GTX series, but only time will tell. I expect the 75S70 on pump gas to make about the same power as a GT3076, spooling up only slightly faster if at all. That's as close as I'm going to get to making a prediction - I'm basically just looking forward to dyno charts. And I'd love to be proven wrong, because I'd be happy to have a wider powerband.

Matchbot is an intriguing tool, but it's only as good as the numbers you put into it. And without any comparisons between Matchbot predictions and real-world results, I have a hard time trusting those predictions.
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Old 02-08-2011, 03:05 AM   #162
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There are few things what i like about EFR and why I'm getting it.
1. Has IWG, no bs needed for installation and driving around town under boost
2. Billet matched wheel
3. Stainless light Exhaust housing
4. Center section has **** load of options on how to run coolant lines.

Why compare garrets 30 years old technology? So what if they put billet wheel in their old shiny compressor cover and called it GTX,
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Old 02-08-2011, 03:44 AM   #163
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NSFW View Post
I think he (they? us?) is (are) more anti-hype than anti-EFR. Expectations are very high for the EFR turbos, but without a comparison between an EFR and another known turbo on a motor we know well, all we have are predictions and hope and hype.
Yep. Our single scroll gt35 still seems to do as well or better than the twin scroll plots I've seen. I'm just not sold on the added weight, cost, and complexity of doing TS, on a Subaru at least.

Maybe this all belongs in it's own TS vs SS and GTX vs EFR thing though.

Last edited by AQ Motorsports; 02-08-2011 at 03:50 AM.
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Old 02-08-2011, 11:21 AM   #164
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76S75 is the EFR7670, and here is a comp map in lbs/min to make it easier for us:

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Old 02-08-2011, 11:43 AM   #165
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NSFW View Post
Personally I don't think they will turn out substantially better than Garrett's new GTX series, but only time will tell. I expect the 75S70 on pump gas to make about the same power as a GT3076, spooling up only slightly faster if at all. That's as close as I'm going to get to making a prediction -
I know you would love to be wrong. I have seen my share up hype over the years too. Even if the EFR spools the same as a GT series turbo, the difference in throttle response and lower gear performance will be substantial.

How can it not be? The weight difference alone is just massive, and that alone would sway me to buy one (will, but on next car).

I would be very interested to hear a reason any reasoning as to why the turbine weight difference will not make a HUGE difference in feel.

Quote:
Matchbot is an intriguing tool, but it's only as good as the numbers you put into it. And without any comparisons between Matchbot predictions and real-world results, I have a hard time trusting those predictions.
Agreed, but I think you give yourself (and others) less credit then they deserve.

We have the comp maps for the wheels, and we can see using MB how restrictive the turbine housings are. From there I think we can do reasonable calculations:

ie:

-GT3076 makes say 400 whp as a standard (good gas, X IAT, etc......) [number doesn't matter, but as a comparison]
-that is at 52 lbs/min flow at about 65% efficiency with the .82 a/r housing (60mm)

if that is so...............

-EFR7670 flows 55 lbs/min at about 25 psi (which is reasonable for our motors) at 65% efficiency with a TS .92 a/r housing. I can't say I know everything about turbines and their housings, but a .92 a/r housing with a 70mm turbine wheel seems pretty likely to flow more then the Garrett one.

Regardless of what numbers you put into MB, the number you care about is 1/BSAC which tells us how much chp we are making per lb/min of flow.

If the 3076 .82 a/r makes 500chp (400 whp * 1.25) then it seems reasonable to conclude that the 7670 will make 530 chp. The 1/BSAC number will tell you how much chp you are making per lb, so if your number is 9.5 (which ends up being right about 530 chp) then your calculations should be pretty close.



ps: MB has been updated, and is now share-able.
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Old 02-08-2011, 01:35 PM   #166
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holy crap. Comparing these two compressor maps from the GTX3076R to the 7670, puts the GTX ahead for our engines. We run around a 3 pressure ratio. At 60lbm the GTX is 68% and the EFR is around 63%. That's a pretty significant difference. Both indicate about 130,000 rpm on the shaft as well.

Bariga,
Can you change your order? lol
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Old 02-08-2011, 01:53 PM   #167
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Originally Posted by aboothman View Post
Don't get upset. If you read the Perrin/ Garrett GTX thread and then the Full Race/Borg EFR thread, you will realize quickily that Phatron, and his nut-hangers, are anti-EFR.

Not only anti-EFR, but against understanding anything involved with them, such as the available tools that we can put to use trying to understand their flow capabilities until the EFR is released and we can get some results.
Not anti EFR....anti hype. You may have missed other posts of mine such as this one where i recommend the EFR.

As for the damn matchbot tool.....can it be useful...sure. Can i tell you which turbo to pick based on your hp goals in 5 seconds by looking at compressor maps...yes. And there is only 1 single scroll turbine housing available for each turbo...so you dont need matchbot to help you pick a turbo. And for twinscroll...the turbine housings are so close (0.92 and 1.03) that they wont cause a serious change in performance.....and in Cam's testing he actually made more power on the smaller TS housing.

If you think its so useful, then tell me how to change the parameters for a Spearco TMIC vs an AMR 5" FMIC, TGV deletes vs non, EL header vs UEL header, 91 oct vs 91+meth vs 93 vs race gas, elevation, 1.75" up pipe vs 2.25" up, cams, headwork, ext wg....etc etc....get my point? The output is only as good as the input......

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phatron View Post
As an engineer this is by far the biggest selling point of these turbos i have seen yet.

Truly "engineered for racing"......and for anyone running timeattack or any racing circuit this picture should make your eyes pop and make your checkbook open up....the pricepoint of these shouldnt even be a consideration if high temp/high stress racing situations are the purpose of your car.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NSFW View Post
I think he (they? us?) is (are) more anti-hype than anti-EFR. Expectations are very high for the EFR turbos, but without a comparison between an EFR and another known turbo on a motor we know well, all we have are predictions and hope and hype.
Yes. Anti-hype.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MPS-Dom View Post
holy crap. Comparing these two compressor maps from the GTX3076R to the 7670, puts the GTX ahead for our engines. We run around a 3 pressure ratio. At 60lbm the GTX is 68% and the EFR is around 63%. That's a pretty significant difference. Both indicate about 130,000 rpm on the shaft as well.
^^ this is exactly why....full race is calling the 7670 a "650hp" turbo...or 65 lbm turbo...which translates to ~520whp. Can it do that? Sure. Is it gonna do that on a subie? No...unless you're planning on running 42psi. You get the same flow outta the gtx3076 at ~30psi......

The only real question is how much the 0.92 housing helps out...if it makes up power through efficiency of the turbine to account for the less flowing compressor wheel.

Last edited by Phatron; 02-08-2011 at 02:01 PM.
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Old 02-08-2011, 03:16 PM   #168
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As for the damn matchbot tool.....can it be useful...sure. Can i tell you which turbo to pick based on your hp goals in 5 seconds by looking at compressor maps...yes.
You have a point Ron, but you should really give credit where credit is due.

This turbo easily helps to explain why for instance a 7064 is not a good match on a 2.5 liter, in fact a horrible match if at sea level. It would be easy for one to say the 6758 is too small, therefore I should move up to the 7064, when in fact one should pick the 7670.

Many people (yes, yourself even included) don't pick a turbo in 5 seconds, but spend a fair bit of time comparing, guessing, looking for dyno charts, logs etc,....

Now we have a tool (not perfect) that can help us see more closely how things will work.

For tuners, this tool (if properly filled out) would likely reveal how that last psi or two you where thinking of running may not make anymore power, instead of habing to try it (although I would likely try it anyways).

Now, god forbid anyone actually tunes in drastically different environments (5500 feet down to 0 feet, or 110F down to -40), but this tool can help one set up the various compensations in the ECU (or at least get fairly close) to get the car to work optimally in those different conditions.

(before you say the OEM ones are usually pretty close, you should see the 02-03 WRXs I tune here lately that are just stage2 when it is -20F IAT. Horrible knock, like real bad. I have to taper boost a lot more then a normal stage2 tune, and I actually have to run less timing, vs more in the cold)

Even if you say it is a waste of time, I say it is more worthwhile to spend time educating oneself in MB, then to "contribute" to every PPB thread here. (zing!!!! ) JK.
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Old 02-08-2011, 03:33 PM   #169
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I already tried to use the tool....but once again I have no idea what to input for my setup.....since 50%+ of my inputs would be pure guesses, then what does that say about the output?

Intercooler Effectiveness %
Intercooler Pressure Drop psi
Air Filter Restriction psi
Muffler System Backpressure psi
Compressor Efficiency %
Turbine Efficiency %

Why dont you go fill it out for my setup....spearco, 91+meth, EL header, ext wg, tbe, 3000 ft, 80* F and see what it tells you i need to make 500whp around 26-30psi. Based on teh compressor maps i will say the 8374.....and i would tell a person at sea level the same turbo....and a person at 5000 ft. At sea level the turbo will just have an easier time....and at elevation it will be fine as all the EFR's do very well efficiency wise at high PR's. So no matter what mods...what efficiencies...what elevations....the answer is always going ot be the 8374....simply because the 7670 is too small and the 9180 isnt necessary. If someone has a 2L...the answer is the same...2.2L same answer....2.7L same answer.

You can learn your way through simulations.....and i will learn my way through discussions of real world results.
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Old 02-08-2011, 03:37 PM   #170
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MPS-Dom View Post
holy crap. Comparing these two compressor maps from the GTX3076R to the 7670, puts the GTX ahead for our engines. We run around a 3 pressure ratio. At 60lbm the GTX is 68% and the EFR is around 63%. That's a pretty significant difference. Both indicate about 130,000 rpm on the shaft as well.

Bariga,
Can you change your order? lol
How's the 8374 comparing to that?
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Old 02-08-2011, 03:51 PM   #171
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Originally Posted by Bariga View Post
How's the 8374 comparing to that?
If you really want 500-540whp on pump and meth on relatively safe tune you need the 8374. It is a 79lbs/min turbo that spools the a little faster (200rpm) than a regular 35r (per the rsx thread) but it has potential of a HTA86 700-750whp...

Since he has the Full-Race kit he has too stick to the BW turbos...
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Old 02-08-2011, 04:20 PM   #172
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phatron
I already tried to use the tool....but once again I have no idea what to input for my setup.....since 50%+ of my inputs would be pure guesses, then what does that say about the output?

Intercooler Effectiveness %
Intercooler Pressure Drop psi
Air Filter Restriction psi
Muffler System Backpressure psi
Compressor Efficiency %
Turbine Efficiency %

Why dont you go fill it out for my setup....spearco, 91+meth, EL header, ext wg, tbe, 3000 ft, 80* F and see what it tells you i need to make 500whp around 26-30psi. Based on teh compressor maps i will say the 8374.....and i would tell a person at sea level the same turbo....and a person at 5000 ft. At sea level the turbo will just have an easier time....and at elevation it will be fine as all the EFR's do very well efficiency wise at high PR's. So no matter what mods...what efficiencies...what elevations....the answer is always going ot be the 8374....simply because the 7670 is too small and the 9180 isnt necessary. If someone has a 2L...the answer is the same...2.2L same answer....2.7L same answer.

You can learn your way through simulations.....and i will learn my way through discussions of real world results.
Honestly I agree. Where the tool really shines is teaching people who cannot read a compressor map what it is/how it works and gives an estimate of how an engine will plot across this chart because a lot of people have no idea what the curve would/ should look like. Not that it really matters because if you can't read the map chances are you aren't going to put together your own setup without asking "how much air can this thing flow" or at-least " what kind of hp will this turbo make ". Truly if you can't read the maps chances are you won't be putting together your own setup at all.

.02

Now give me some damned subie dynos!!!
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Old 02-08-2011, 04:29 PM   #173
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phatron View Post
I already tried to use the tool....but once again I have no idea what to input for my setup.....since 50%+ of my inputs would be pure guesses, then what does that say about the output?

Intercooler Effectiveness %
Intercooler Pressure Drop psi
Air Filter Restriction psi
Muffler System Backpressure psi
Compressor Efficiency %
Turbine Efficiency %

Why dont you go fill it out for my setup....spearco, 91+meth, EL header, ext wg, tbe, 3000 ft, 80* F and see what it tells you i need to make 500whp around 26-30psi. Based on teh compressor maps i will say the 8374.....and i would tell a person at sea level the same turbo....and a person at 5000 ft. At sea level the turbo will just have an easier time....and at elevation it will be fine as all the EFR's do very well efficiency wise at high PR's. So no matter what mods...what efficiencies...what elevations....the answer is always going ot be the 8374....simply because the 7670 is too small and the 9180 isnt necessary. If someone has a 2L...the answer is the same...2.2L same answer....2.7L same answer.

You can learn your way through simulations.....and i will learn my way through discussions of real world results.
I will do that tonight, or thursday at the latest.


For those that can't read, you can watch the vids, for those that can't watch the vids I will spell it out: If you can't listen to me or listen to the vids, then you are lost:

Intercooler Effectiveness % Search a bit. At low rpm 100% is possible or close, at hgiher rpm on a good FMIC at least 85+ IMO, there are a number of threads here that will give you an idea.
Intercooler Pressure Drop psi I have measured mine a few times, and I came up with 1-2.5 psi pressure drop on a 42 lb/min turbo on a small Perrin TMIC on a LGT http://legacygt.com/forums/showthrea...1.html?t=91511
Again, if you search you will find that a good FMIC will have about 1psi loss, your Spearco on a 55 lb/min turbo is likely about 2 psi as a guess, maybe less.
Air Filter Restriction psi I have done testing on this too (measuring vacuum pre-tubo on WOT runs) and found it to be about .3 psi max with a decent air filter that is of decent size.
Muffler System Backpressure psi
I have also measured this (although my gauge didn't last long) and found a max of 3-4 psi on a 42 lb/min turbo with a HFC and 2 resonators and a fairly quiet exhaust, so I don't imagine much worse then that unless running OEM CBE.
Compressor Efficiency %
watch the vid!!! you look at the little red dots that are plotted and put those numbers in the appropriate spots
Turbine Efficiency %
see comp efficiency, although the note does say to add a few percent if TS
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Old 02-09-2011, 01:17 AM   #174
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ATP 3076, 6MT, AVO FMIC

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Quote:
Originally Posted by LittleBlueGT View Post
I know you would love to be wrong. I have seen my share up hype over the years too. Even if the EFR spools the same as a GT series turbo, the difference in throttle response and lower gear performance will be substantial.

How can it not be? The weight difference alone is just massive, and that alone would sway me to buy one (will, but on next car).

I would be very interested to hear a reason any reasoning as to why the turbine weight difference will not make a HUGE difference in feel.
This is one of those issues where I feel like speculation is a bad idea because the real-world results will be out soon enough. And it's doubly risky in this case because there's more testing that I can and will carry out by myself, with my current turbo (maybe this weekend). All I'm going to say right now is that I don't think it will make a big difference.

And I'm fully aware that I could be wrong here, but that's my guess for now. When I have more evidence I'll post it, whether it proves my guess right or wrong.

Quote:
Regardless of what numbers you put into MB, the number you care about is 1/BSAC which tells us how much chp we are making per lb/min of flow.

If the 3076 .82 a/r makes 500chp (400 whp * 1.25) then it seems reasonable to conclude that the 7670 will make 530 chp. The 1/BSAC number will tell you how much chp you are making per lb, so if your number is 9.5 (which ends up being right about 530 chp) then your calculations should be pretty close.
I should have been more specific- I have no doubt that MB can predict peak power, but we could already do that using the compressor maps alone. What I'm not confident in is Matchbot's predictions for when we'll reach full boost, and that's also what I'm most interested in about these turbos.
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Old 02-09-2011, 01:14 PM   #175
Bariga
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 179846
Join Date: May 2008
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Renton, WA
Vehicle:
07 STi Limited
EFR 7670 TS

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Well I'm one of the first people inline for 7670, and changing the order can put me 2-3 months back-order. Ill give 7670 a shoot and see what its capable, and if i don't like it i wont have problem selling it.
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