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Old 12-20-2010, 01:53 AM   #51
Maxwell Power
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ledzeppelin240
Should I be running a td04 as hard as I want then (as long as someone will tune it) with my hybrid? Dam, the 2.2 would be awesome but I'm too far into this now.
Heck no. Td04 on a hybrid without chamber work is a huge risk. You're closer to knock than with a vf39.
The small turbine housing puts a lot of back pressure on the motor at high boost levels. The larger displacement quickly taxes the turbo which makes the back pressure even worse. This results in inadequate cylinder scavenging and even exhaust pollution of the charge mixture which leads to a lot of residual cylinder heat, hot spots and knock.

You are much safer with a larger turbo on lower boost.

The trick with a hybrid Subaru is combustion chamber heat management. The factory ecu doesn't monitor ACTUAL intake air temp and can't protect against heatsoak. This makes it hard enough to keep engines together that aren't hindered by high compression and hot spots.
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Old 12-20-2010, 11:41 PM   #52
morrocco88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxwell Power View Post


Here's why: The OEM pistons are known for their cracking when pushed hard or when poorly tuned. However, with a proper tune the engine is very reliable ( Especially if the IAT sensor is moved post intercooler) and very quiet. In a knock free environment the OEM piston and it's tighter piston to wall clearances will give you all the power you desire and the reliability of a stock engine. You will have no piston slap and therefor no worries associated with it. You will be able to drive the car sooner after starting and not have to worry about excessive piston scuffing during warm up. You will have low levels of blowby with the tighter ring gaps and tighter clearances. This creates a cleaner intake tract, cleaner cylinders that are less prone to knock because of less oil vapor carried into the engine. Your oil will last longer too. The new 09 STi shortblocks have a new bearing material that is stronger than previous years as well as ideal rod bearing clearances (a big plus from older STi blocks). The oem rod bearings now come from the factory at .0018". This is more than enough for a DD making up to 475whp with OEM rev limits, yet tight enough to not wear out the bearings after 100k+ miles.
Also, this engine will make more power than the same block with forged pistons (and no headwork) that are designed for the 2L combustion chamber (big time band-aid)

So if money is a problem, do the new 09 STi SB and get the heads re-chambered. I promise you will be very happy. Just be sure you get a solid tune on it. If you have a FMIC, move the IAT as well.
Hey Dom,

How do you move the IAT sensor when it's part of the MAF sensor? Do you just use an aftermarket sensor with the same voltage scale as the stock one in the maf, and then tap it into the two wires on the maf harness for the stock IAT?

I'm interested in maybe moving mine post FMIC if possible before I come back for my FINAL TUNE (hopefully ). Car is ready and just waiting for weather to clear before heading over the mountains.

Garris
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Old 12-21-2010, 08:42 AM   #53
Zackbo
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I've noticed with my hybrid setup that increased timing just does not give the gains that my 2.0 did. I understand that this is because of the higher compression. I could run 27-28 deg. up top on the 2.0 and see significant gains. It seems like trying to go past 20 deg up top on the hybrid just has diminishing returns. Why does the higher compression yield less results with advanced timing? What type of timing #'s are others running? I'm at about 14 deg max torque and 20 up top. Please share.
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Old 12-21-2010, 05:42 PM   #54
Maxwell Power
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Originally Posted by morrocco88 View Post
Hey Dom,

How do you move the IAT sensor when it's part of the MAF sensor? Do you just use an aftermarket sensor with the same voltage scale as the stock one in the maf, and then tap it into the two wires on the maf harness for the stock IAT?

I'm interested in maybe moving mine post FMIC if possible before I come back for my FINAL TUNE (hopefully ). Car is ready and just waiting for weather to clear before heading over the mountains.

Garris
we use a new GM IAT and cut the two wires to the OEM IAT. it's pretty simple and not a permanent thing if you desired to go back to the OEM IAT.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Zackbo View Post
I've noticed with my hybrid setup that increased timing just does not give the gains that my 2.0 did. I understand that this is because of the higher compression. I could run 27-28 deg. up top on the 2.0 and see significant gains. It seems like trying to go past 20 deg up top on the hybrid just has diminishing returns. Why does the higher compression yield less results with advanced timing? What type of timing #'s are others running? I'm at about 14 deg max torque and 20 up top. Please share.
I'm guessing you're already knocking.

There is a huge misunderstanding of what timing actually does for these engines. Timing is a means of raising your volumetric efficiency by achieving proper cylinder pressures at the right crank angle. Engines like ours have high pistons speeds for such a short stroke (thank you damn rod ratios!) which creates a very fine line between MBT and knock. In a lot of hybrids, knock occurs before traditional MBT values due to high compression and higher combustion chamber temperatures.

More timing doesn't mean more power.
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Old 12-22-2010, 09:25 AM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxwell Power View Post
we use a new GM IAT and cut the two wires to the OEM IAT. it's pretty simple and not a permanent thing if you desired to go back to the OEM IAT.
Sorry to get off subject...

Dom, do you need to change the scaling for the GM IAT sensor, with the 16bit ecu?

Thanks,
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Old 12-22-2010, 09:51 AM   #56
crashtke
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Was wondering the same. We had already planned this using a gm or ford sensor but have not done it yet.
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Old 12-22-2010, 12:48 PM   #57
Maxwell Power
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rexworx View Post
Sorry to get off subject...

Dom, do you need to change the scaling for the GM IAT sensor, with the 16bit ecu?

Thanks,
Quote:
Originally Posted by crashtke View Post
Was wondering the same. We had already planned this using a gm or ford sensor but have not done it yet.

in order for the readings to be accurate yes. I do.

However, if you just use it as a reference (which is fine too) then you don't really have to. Just know that the temps are off about 20 degrees and tune from there.
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Old 12-22-2010, 01:25 PM   #58
morrocco88
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I just ordered the parts from NAPA online. It is an IAT sensor used on probably 100 different GM vehicles.

NAPA Echlin brand part numbers.

Sensor = ECH TS5100

Pig Tail = ECH TSC300

Looks like it's 3/8 NPT. I wonder if it's ok to tap into the outlet side IC tank itself, because my meth jet is in the first pipe right after. The tank is thicker aluminum and a flat surface too.

Thanks for your help Dom!
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Old 12-22-2010, 02:28 PM   #59
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we have 3/8"npt bungs that we weld on the pipes.
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Old 12-22-2010, 02:34 PM   #60
morrocco88
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I know you guys do, and it looks really nice when done. I've also seen the bungs you weld on for meth jets, totally pro! My problem is I don't have a spot in the piping before my existing meth jets, so the IAT would get wet.

In the tank OK too?
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Old 12-22-2010, 10:54 PM   #61
BigC
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Mileage since installed: ~39k
Type Engine and Internals: Stock EJ257 shortblock, '07 vintage.
Valve-train: stock 2.0l heads (had 32k on them, replaced exhaust valves and all oil seals)
Head Gasket Choice: STi
Summary: Your basic high compression, PITA to tune, hybrid.

Current Status: Daily driver but will probably blow at any moment! :P

I put this thing together about 3.5 years ago before all these issue's started turning up. This was my first experience from a tuning perspective and I must say it's been educational. I've spent probably hundreds of hours on this thing and the past year I'd have to say it's running as well I can make it. Of course, according to all the above information, I'm on borrowed time as I run 20 psi on a TD04....

If I had known then what I know now, I would have had the head work done to avoid the detonation issues..
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Old 12-23-2010, 08:56 AM   #62
Homemade WRX
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Quote:
Originally Posted by morrocco88 View Post
I know you guys do, and it looks really nice when done. I've also seen the bungs you weld on for meth jets, totally pro! My problem is I don't have a spot in the piping before my existing meth jets, so the IAT would get wet.

In the tank OK too?
I don't see why the end tank would be an issue. I won't reflect as accurate of an intake temp compared to closer to the TB but shouldn't be an issue at all.

As I witness with IAT temps are work, be sure that the sensor is in the stream of flow. When we install them for testing on the dyno (or on a chassis), if they have stand off we some sensor heat soak issues thanks to the cast aluminum.
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Old 12-24-2010, 12:03 AM   #63
maxpowr
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subscib'd. i'll chime in a lil later.
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Old 12-24-2010, 07:49 AM   #64
crashtke
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigC View Post
Mileage since installed: ~39k
Type Engine and Internals: Stock EJ257 shortblock, '07 vintage.
Valve-train: stock 2.0l heads (had 32k on them, replaced exhaust valves and all oil seals)
Head Gasket Choice: STi
Summary: Your basic high compression, PITA to tune, hybrid.

Current Status: Daily driver but will probably blow at any moment! :P

I put this thing together about 3.5 years ago before all these issue's started turning up. This was my first experience from a tuning perspective and I must say it's been educational. I've spent probably hundreds of hours on this thing and the past year I'd have to say it's running as well I can make it. Of course, according to all the above information, I'm on borrowed time as I run 20 psi on a TD04....

If I had known then what I know now, I would have had the head work done to avoid the detonation issues..
Probably a good bit of your det issues comes from running a Td04 on a 2.5 at 20 psi But seriously, what gas are you using?
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Old 12-24-2010, 08:50 AM   #65
BigC
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crashtke View Post
Probably a good bit of your det issues comes from running a Td04 on a 2.5 at 20 psi But seriously, what gas are you using?
BP 93. I run 20psi from 3k-5k and then taper it back down the ~13 at redline which is set at 6500. It works great for autox I probably would have gone with a bigger turbo by now but my tranny broke last year and my wife just gives me a hateful glare every time I bring it up
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Old 12-24-2010, 08:56 AM   #66
crashtke
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The TD04 is such a huge restriction on that 2.5 liter. I can only imagine the back pressure in the exhaust! But 4500 that turbo at 20 psi is more than likely WELL out of breath. Here is a 250 hp plot. It is off the flow chart by 5000 rpms.
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Old 12-24-2010, 09:05 PM   #67
MainFrame
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4,000 miles since last apart
ej257 block, crank, & rods (balanced). 100mm low compression CP pistons
ej205 heads, & cams. +1mm radiused BC valves
Cometic EJ25 100mm .027 inch MLS head gaskets



Current status is running, but I have a valve sticking because last time I had a rod bolt stretch and replaced them with ARP rod bolts. Didn't think to readjust the lash because the heads had just been relashed from having the valve guides bored to the wrong size the the time before that.

So in about two weeks it's starting on build #4 in the last year. Since the lash has to be redone I'm throwing in some 06 STi cams this time.


I'm probably going to be adding a helper spring to the wastegate actuator as well. And now I'm also considering moving the IAT sensor, lol. Or maybe I should just go blow through..
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Old 01-23-2011, 03:46 AM   #68
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I bought my car with the hybrid swap done... The previous owner wasn't very forthcoming with details, other than the work was done at Subaru, while he was working there as a lot boy. I'd love to know if a thicker head gasket or lower compression pistons were used, or what chamber work was done if any. He hasn't returned one of my calls or texts since the transaction, lol.

Car runs great for what it's worth, put down 230whp/280ftlbs at 15psi with the td04.
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Old 01-25-2011, 03:41 PM   #69
paintbing
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^ Assume the worst - STI gasket with stock 2.5 block. The best thing you can do is tune it to it's liking. It it takes timing ->great. If not, then oh well.

You really have 2 choices here... rebuild it the way you like (and know), or leave it the way it is and tune it for the best. I would personally go with #2.
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Old 01-25-2011, 03:57 PM   #70
Maxwell Power
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paintbing
^ Assume the worst - STI gasket with stock 2.5 block. The best thing you can do is tune it to it's liking. It it takes timing ->great. If not, then oh well.

You really have 2 choices here... rebuild it the way you like (and know), or leave it the way it is and tune it for the best. I would personally go with #2.
If he's pulling the heads he should just have the chambers done.
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Old 01-25-2011, 10:51 PM   #71
slowmike
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I had a lot of problems with det until I opened up the combustion chambers.

Mileage since installed:
10k on this build

Type Engine and Internals: *State if you have low-compression pistons. If you don't know--shame on you.
OE 2010 STI short block with standard size and dish CP pistons

Valve-train: *State machine work
Crower stage1 cams, port work, chambers opened to 57cc, Super Tech +1mm valves, shimless buckets

Head Gasket Choice:
OE STI gaskets

Current Status:
It's still ugly but, I still love it
Now I have close to 50k on it and it is is using 1.5 - 2 quarts of oil every 3500 miles. It has also eaten both of the differentials since this build.

Last edited by slowmike; 12-27-2012 at 06:04 PM. Reason: Update
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Old 02-04-2011, 08:31 AM   #72
wr6xwhit
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Default My 02 WRX Hybrid

Mileage since install: 1st try, 4k miles then blew cosworth 1.5 gasket(sti head studs), 2nd build in 1k.


Type Engine and Internals: *State if you have low-compression pistons. If you don't know--shame on you: Stock ej257


Valve-train: *State machine work: 2.0 stock heads machined and valve job, everything stock and no porting.


Head Gasket Choice: 1st try (Cosworth 1.5), 2nd build (STI gaskets)


Current Status: Only 1K on build 2, so runs good for now. Needs retune after thinner head gasket install. This was somewhat of a budget build after 2.0 engine blew. Last dyno run, 378AWHP, 365TQ, FP Green, Methanol, 850cc injectors, stock diameter Cobb SF Intake, soon going to 73mm before next tune, trying to get closer to 400AWHP on a Mustang Dyno! Thanks to Chris @ EFI Logics. So far, the best power he has seen out of a hybrid with some room for improvement!
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Old 02-04-2011, 12:15 PM   #73
sleeperrex
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Mine was confirmed blown rings a couple of days ago (70% leakdown on cylinder 4). Kind of known for the last few months after i did a compression test and Cylinder 4 was 60psi. Haven't been driving it around.

35000 miles, STI head gasket, alchy with FPGreen. No headwork other than the regular 3angle valve job. no upgraded cams. At 380awhp.

Thing that sucks is i just had Dom at Maxwell power put in some Ablins gears. Can't say i've really got to enjoy the gears yet.
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Old 02-04-2011, 01:51 PM   #74
zombiedog
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Default Hybrids R WIN

After a very punished 100k, my bottom end exploded. An injector decided to fail at WOT.

Mileage since install: 35k
Highway and back road use with about 4 track days, 5 auto-x's, and 1 drag day.

Type Engine and Internals:
Stock STi bottom end
ej20 Heads:
Lightly ported by me
STi cams with blocked oil holes
FP Green
I did the build
TXS tuned to 375awhp @17psi
Then I tweaked it to 20psi for more awesome
I have all normal supporting mods for this power so nothing special to report, maybe GrimmSpeed EBC? Helped with the tune I think.

Head Gasket Choice: STI

Current Status: Wanted more power/reliability so I just tore it down to put in rods and pistons. Upon inspection all looks good.
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Old 02-05-2011, 11:19 AM   #75
Wagun
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxwell Power View Post
we use a new GM IAT and cut the two wires to the OEM IAT. it's pretty simple and not a permanent thing if you desired to go back to the OEM IAT.
Could you post a pic of one installled?
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