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Old 08-20-2010, 05:24 PM   #1
Back Road Runner
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Default High torque build - minimal requirements to not fail?

Quick Intro:
-stock engine, 2.5L Phase II SOHC, 100k worn out and running a 50 weight to prevent consumption, has exhaust, ecu, minor intake changes.
-car used for daily plus sport (auto-x, rally-x)
-bought spare long block, 100k miles too but lightly used (actually everything short of intake manifold and accesorries) in case the stock engine failed on me in some way

Plans:
-minimum: 100k maintenance at least (timing belt, pulleys, etc.), fix leaky head gaskets.
-desired: take the spare block and do cheap work to it and build up a high compression version

Requirements:
-high compression pistons
-injectors (E85)
-fuel pump (E85)
-E85 tune
-torque cam grind
-P&P heads (not mure flow but equal out flow, possible 3-angle valve job (seen info that states this is almost required on the exhaust side to get good (close to equivalent) numbers across the cylinders)
-maybe gasket match the intake manifold
-lightweight flywheel/clutch


Unknowns:

Anything needed to support the higher loads?
-race bearings?
-rods?
-better oil pump?
-stock crank good enough?

Intentions are to stay with the oil I'm running, Eneos 0w50. If I had the option, I would also prefer to build the engine a little loose to keep from spinning bearings and improve oil flow and cooling. I question if a high flow oil pump is needed to step this way though. It won't be geared for high revs, so I don't know if there is the need.

The long block I have is apart already, so swapping in parts is easy. It could then be dropped in.

Right now I'm just trying to figure out what I need minimally to get a package together that's safe to run. I basically need pistons, probably TWE high compression ones for the NA as I don't really know if there's much of anything else out there. I know I can toss on 2.2L heads and get up there and have 2.2L heads actually, but single port exhaust and would be a shame not to use my good TWE 4-to-1 header. I don't know if the rods are too weak or fine or if the bearings or stock replacement bearings are good enough. Is a race bearing necessary? Are upgraded rods necessary? Do I need to address the crank? If there's no need to address something, I don't want to bother with it, but I also don't want to just be cheap and risk almost certain failure in some way because I skipped something I shouldn't have. Now maybe this needs to approach a turbo build up but sitting on high compression pistons. Maybe the relatively mild bump in torque just isn't enough to justify so much.
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Last edited by Back Road Runner; 08-20-2010 at 06:45 PM.
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Old 08-20-2010, 06:09 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Back Road Runner View Post
Quick Intro:
-stock engine, 100k worn out and running a 50 weight to prevent consumption, has exhaust, ecu, minor intake changes.
-car used for daily plus sport (auto-x, rally-x)
-bought spare long block, 100k miles too but lightly used (actually everything short of intake manifold and accesorries) in case the stock engine failed on me in some way

Plans:
-minimum: 100k maintenance at least (timing belt, pulleys, etc.), fix leaky head gaskets.
-desired: take the spare block and do cheap work to it and build up a high compression version

Requirements:
-high compression pistons
-injectors (E85)
-fuel pump (E85)
-E85 tune
-torque cam grind
-P&P heads (not mure flow but equal out flow, possible 3-angle valve job (seen info that states this is almost required on the exhaust side to get good (close to equivalent) numbers across the cylinders)
-maybe gasket match the intake manifold
-lightweight flywheel/clutch


Unknowns:

Anything needed to support the higher loads?
-race bearings?
-rods?
-better oil pump?
-stock crank good enough?

Intentions are to stay with the oil I'm running, Eneos 0w50. If I had the option, I would also prefer to build the engine a little loose to keep from spinning bearings and improve oil flow and cooling. I question if a high flow oil pump is needed to step this way though. It won't be geared for high revs, so I don't know if there is the need.

The long block I have is apart already, so swapping in parts is easy. It could then be dropped in.

Right now I'm just trying to figure out what I need minimally to get a package together that's safe to run. I basically need pistons, probably TWE high compression ones for the NA as I don't really know if there's much of anything else out there. I know I can toss on 2.2L heads and get up there and have 2.2L heads actually, but single port exhaust and would be a shame not to use my good TWE 4-to-1 header. I don't know if the rods are too weak or fine or if the bearings or stock replacement bearings are good enough. Is a race bearing necessary? Are upgraded rods necessary? Do I need to address the crank? If there's no need to address something, I don't want to bother with it, but I also don't want to just be cheap and risk almost certain failure in some way because I skipped something I shouldn't have. Now maybe this needs to approach a turbo build up but sitting on high compression pistons. Maybe the relatively mild bump in torque just isn't enough to justify so much.
Bearings and oil pump will probably be necessary if you are planning to significantly raise your redline. Seeing as this is a torque build, I'm not sure if you are going to. I'm pretty sure that bearings and oil pump are more dependent on RPMs.

Your crank is forged stock... It should be ok? (shrug)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the rods on the 2.5RS are the same as the WRX rods.
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Old 08-20-2010, 06:14 PM   #3
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maybe clarifying the engine in question would be helpful. I see that you mention 2.2 heads and that you have an 02 Forrester. EJ251? or did they offer a 2.2L in the Forrester that year?
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Old 08-20-2010, 06:44 PM   #4
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Ah, 2.5L Phase II SOHC EJ251, 2002 Forester, added to the main post.

I have the 2.2L heads by accident. Silly me thought they were 2.5L heads at first. They were cheap and not specifically what I was purchasing in the deal. If they were dual port exhaust, I might toy with them, but I just don't care for the single port that they are.

I did want to do a high rpm build, but the more I look into getting good HP out of significant rpms, it keeps making me think a torque motor is a more workable approach. I may still step to spicy cams just to get some of that torque higher and still make some HP out of the engine.

I'd be happy if I can stick with the stock crank, bearings, and rods. Then it would only be pistons, and I'd be set for my intentions. I could just do a quick hone on the spare block, toss in a set of TWE high compression pistons and be set on the block. With a low rpm build, I wouldn't have to touch the oil pump either, but I don't know if I should put in another one since it's 100k anyways. Then I can just get the heads worked on, toss in cams, and I'd be done with the internals. I assume I should do a water pump at 100k, but I don't know if I should do an oil pump too at 100k. If I should, I may just step to a higher flow one anyways if the price isn't much different.

Last edited by Back Road Runner; 08-20-2010 at 06:54 PM.
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Old 08-21-2010, 01:26 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Back Road Runner View Post
Ah, 2.5L Phase II SOHC EJ251, 2002 Forester, added to the main post.

I have the 2.2L heads by accident. Silly me thought they were 2.5L heads at first. They were cheap and not specifically what I was purchasing in the deal. If they were dual port exhaust, I might toy with them, but I just don't care for the single port that they are.

I did want to do a high rpm build, but the more I look into getting good HP out of significant rpms, it keeps making me think a torque motor is a more workable approach. I may still step to spicy cams just to get some of that torque higher and still make some HP out of the engine.

I'd be happy if I can stick with the stock crank, bearings, and rods. Then it would only be pistons, and I'd be set for my intentions. I could just do a quick hone on the spare block, toss in a set of TWE high compression pistons and be set on the block. With a low rpm build, I wouldn't have to touch the oil pump either, but I don't know if I should put in another one since it's 100k anyways. Then I can just get the heads worked on, toss in cams, and I'd be done with the internals. I assume I should do a water pump at 100k, but I don't know if I should do an oil pump too at 100k. If I should, I may just step to a higher flow one anyways if the price isn't much different.
I would say the biggest differences is the piston...

Upping compression, is much like (but not the same as) getting boost in the car. The difference in Subarus mainly relies on the piston. For boost it's changing the piston face and some compresion to be able to lower dynamic CR.

High CR TWE pistons are well made and have a good piston face for it.

However, I'm not sure how well the rods will stand up, but if I remember correctly you can boost a WRX to around 20 PSI with stock internals.

That being said, I think the rods will be ok. I think the STi rods are a bit beefier, if you want to use those instead.
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Old 08-21-2010, 01:42 AM   #6
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It's more about what is needed to not have it fail. Really I'm only expecting maybe 15-20 ft-lbs more.
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Old 08-22-2010, 08:31 PM   #7
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TWE hi-comp pistons require USDM STi rods to work.

The oil you're running is too thick, you're starving the bearings for oil, reducing the pressure in the oil wedge, and increasing the bearing temperature.

The 2.5L crank is common all the way up to the STi, so you're fine there.

OEM bearings are perfectly serviceable, but tend to run on the tight end of the tolerance, which is not a good thing. You can order different diameter stock bearings, or source an aftermarket bearing that runs more towards the open end of tolerance.

After talking to Tom@TWE for a long time, you'd pick up area under the curve if you switched from his 4-1 to his 4-2-1. Also, you'll pick up torque and flow if you switch to the 05-07 intake manifold, but that will require custom work to use it with your cable throttle.

If you run towards the open end of the bearing tolerances, you may want to pick up the 9mm oil pump rather than the 7mm oil pump. Going larger than that is not advisable.

For injectors, you should be able to pick up 08+ STi stock injectors, which will have more than enough flow, for less than you can get "new" high-flow RS injectors from Deatschwerks, Witchhunter, etc.

The stock valve job is multi-angle. You'll need that 3-angle just to keep from losing ground.

Coat the hell out of everything. Use Swaintech to do it. Get the moly coating they recommend on the skirt and their TBC on the piston crow, combustion chamber, valve faces, and exhaust port runners.
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Old 08-23-2010, 07:00 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by williaty View Post
TWE hi-comp pistons require USDM STi rods to work.

The oil you're running is too thick, you're starving the bearings for oil, reducing the pressure in the oil wedge, and increasing the bearing temperature.

The 2.5L crank is common all the way up to the STi, so you're fine there.

OEM bearings are perfectly serviceable, but tend to run on the tight end of the tolerance, which is not a good thing. You can order different diameter stock bearings, or source an aftermarket bearing that runs more towards the open end of tolerance.

After talking to Tom@TWE for a long time, you'd pick up area under the curve if you switched from his 4-1 to his 4-2-1. Also, you'll pick up torque and flow if you switch to the 05-07 intake manifold, but that will require custom work to use it with your cable throttle.

If you run towards the open end of the bearing tolerances, you may want to pick up the 9mm oil pump rather than the 7mm oil pump. Going larger than that is not advisable.

For injectors, you should be able to pick up 08+ STi stock injectors, which will have more than enough flow, for less than you can get "new" high-flow RS injectors from Deatschwerks, Witchhunter, etc.

The stock valve job is multi-angle. You'll need that 3-angle just to keep from losing ground.

Coat the hell out of everything. Use Swaintech to do it. Get the moly coating they recommend on the skirt and their TBC on the piston crow, combustion chamber, valve faces, and exhaust port runners.
Thanks for this, it helped me make up my mind on a few things
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Old 08-23-2010, 09:05 PM   #9
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I never get that too thick thing. Dead cold, the oil is a lot thicker, many magnitudes thicker and magnitudes more in the dead of winter. I'm maintaining a thicker hot viscosity just to keep oil consumption down low. I basically need to just to keep oil in the car. On a newly rebuilt motor, this would have to be evaluated, but I would figure a loose setting should require thicker oil from the start. Thinner oil does mean I can run more through (cooling), but a thicker oil would provide better wear protection under load. What's the best mix? I don't know. It might be a matter of actually knowing how much oil is being pumped through the motor. I don't know how this correlates to the various oil pumps from 7mm to 9mm to 11mm or 12mm.

Interesting comment on the STI rods. It's not something I would have expected, but maybe they do it because they would prefer to have the rods replaced at that point anyways.

How significant are coatings? I mean bang for the buck do they offer enough? I've always kind of looked at coatings as something appropriate for tweaked out race motors and not so much daily drivers or even sport built engines. I'm a fan because I know what they offer, but I'm curious how much they offer in a more civil platform. Is it enough?

I think the header I have is already a good choice for grunt. They are 60" primaries, lol. I've heard too many mixed comments on the 4-1 and 4-2-1 stuff. The torque band is basically ruler flat from 2500 to 4700 and within 90% of peak from 1700 to 5500. It was actually better than expected given they are the larger 1.75 OD primaries, but that might be more a saving grace by the heads and intake keeping the velocities up. All I know is it's their rally prototype and it certainly seems to function well on the stock rpm range.

An 05-07 intake manifold would be fun. Since this will pretty much be a completely drop in ready piece, it might be doable to almost have a working block to drop right in, sans accessories. This could allow some play with the newer intake manifold and get something working before the motor ever goes in.
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Old 08-23-2010, 09:25 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Back Road Runner View Post
I never get that too thick thing. Dead cold, the oil is a lot thicker, many magnitudes thicker and magnitudes more in the dead of winter. I'm maintaining a thicker hot viscosity just to keep oil consumption down low. I basically need to just to keep oil in the car.
Correct, cold oil is even thicker than 10w50 at operating temperature. However, cold oil is also incapable of protecting the engine. There's a reason you shouldn't exceed 3kRPM or 50% throttle until the oil temp is above 160F (preferably 180F). The rest of it is fluid dynamics. You're forcing a viscous fluid through a fixed orifice (the bearings) at a fixed pressure (relief pressure). The more viscous the fluid becomes, the less volume flows under those fixed conditions. That means that, above the oil pump bypass pressure, less oil is going to your bearings with heavier weight oil. Additionally, heavier weight oil increases the system pressure when below bypass, decreasing the engine speed at which the bypass activates and consigning a larger portion of the rev range to the reduced flow that occurs above bypass. Lower flow results in less pressure in the fluid wedge (aka less protection) and less cooling (flow volume and temperature gradient between the flow and the bearing determine cooling). Ideally, you'd want an oil with a kinematic viscosity of about 10cSt@100C, an HTHS above 3.5, and a incoming temperature of 180-200F. That's pretty hard to do, actually.

Quote:
Thinner oil does mean I can run more through (cooling), but a thicker oil would provide better wear protection under load.
The latter statement is untrue. Oil weight (kinematic viscosity) is not correlated to engine wear. HTHS and flow rate are highly correlated to engine wear. This is based on reading ASME and SAE papers on lubrication under the phase conditions encountered in the bearings and cam journals of an IC gasoline engine.


Quote:
How significant are coatings? I mean bang for the buck do they offer enough? I've always kind of looked at coatings as something appropriate for tweaked out race motors and not so much daily drivers or even sport built engines. I'm a fan because I know what they offer, but I'm curious how much they offer in a more civil platform. Is it enough?
Yes, I think they're definitely required in our specific application. They'll help with reducing friction and piston/wall scuffing (with which our engines have a mild problem) when applied to the piston skirts, reduce knock (with which our engines have a major problem) when applied to the piston crown, combustion chamber, and valve faces, and reduce oil, coolant, and CH temps (all of which are a problem) when applied to the inside of the exhaust port runner. Basically, they're necessary for us because the EJ family of engines isn't astonishingly well designed.

Quote:
I think the header I have is already a good choice for grunt. They are 60" primaries, lol. I've heard too many mixed comments on the 4-1 and 4-2-1 stuff. The torque band is basically ruler flat from 2500 to 4700 and within 90% of peak from 1700 to 5500. It was actually better than expected given they are the larger 1.75 OD primaries, but that might be more a saving grace by the heads and intake keeping the velocities up. All I know is it's their rally prototype and it certainly seems to function well on the stock rpm range.
Tom was adamant that I needed his 4-2-1 HO, not his 4-1 HO, when running his pistons. Take that for whatever you feel it's worth.
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Old 08-23-2010, 10:02 PM   #11
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The 4-2-1 headers seem to be their new thing. I'm not sure why they are specifically touting them. Maybe just to get the word out?

I really do wish TWE would at some point just start writing some tech articles about their products, their engineering, and why they develop products the way they do. I always liked Cobbs stuff, and it's just nice to educate the public on the science and differences with products and product design.
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Old 08-24-2010, 12:08 AM   #12
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He specifically recommend the 4-2-1 HO's for high compression because they scavenge better across a broader range. Getting rid of the last little bit of spent exhaust gasses significantly reduces the knock tendency of the engine as the CR is raised.
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Old 08-27-2010, 01:41 AM   #13
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Hmm. I'm sure TWE knows what they're talking about, but I'm curious how significant a difference it might be. I'm also not terribly partial to toss out a perfectly good TWE header for another, more expensive perfectly good TWE header. Plus with E85, knock is apparently a challenge to even create.

It'll be curious. I think I will stick with what I have to start with. I should get my answer once tuning is under way. If I am getting issues, it should become apparent. I'm already at the larger primaries and run a high flowing 2.5" exhaust, so I do expect no real flow issues.


I was looking around the other day pretty much randomly and engine build stuff for the EJ25. I ran across a long block teardown thread which was very nice since this is my first time toying with a Subaru engine.
http://www.rs25.com/forums/f105/t716...head-work.html

I also found this.
http://www.rotaryforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7891
which of course pointed me to the ZZYZX build.

So I'm apparently pretty much building something like the ZZYZX motor. It'll probably take more work than I'm going to put in to make those numbers though, but the compression will be there, cams, some head work, and E85 that is somewhere towards 105 octane. The 2005 intake manifold is an obvious route to go, although I'm not sure why the step to the Mustang TB. I think it was explained once over on RS25, but I'm not going to dig around for hours trying to find it.

The coolant passage can be stopped on the stock TB, and I assume I'd want to keep the stock TB for the idle control and cruise. I'd have to build an adapter plate of some sort to attach the throttle cables. I assume the 2005 coil pack and wires were chosen because they mount readily to the 2005 intake manifold, but I assume I could fab up something to fit my stock one. I'd have to fab up a mount for the MAP sensor. If I were to guess, it seems like I would need the 2005 fuel rail to fit the 2005 intake manifold, and least that's why I'm guessing they're using it. This is all guessing at the moment since I don't have examples of both in my hands.

Haha, all I know is this is going to get spendy. I still need to break down all the parts including gaskets and all the little things. My bro fully rebuilt his FXT motor last winter, so I have a nice, itemized parts list from the shop that did it to step through and piece together a rebuild for my motor. That's nice.

I have a feeling this might be a couple months of just researching and piecing together a build and figuring out what I want to do with the car. Maybe I should start learning how to tune the ECU in the mean time.

Last edited by Back Road Runner; 08-27-2010 at 01:47 AM.
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Old 08-27-2010, 01:47 AM   #14
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Compression on the Zzyzx build (an astonishingly large amount of which was done by TWE, even when not listed as such) was considerably higher than the 11.5:1 achieved by pistons alone. They futzed with some other stuff. I have been led to believe, but not had outright confirmed, that the cams were special as well. The Mustang TB was chosen because it was a larger bore size. However, since there's now overbore and PnP TBs available off the shelf, that would be an easier way to go.

How sure are you that you're going to be able to run E85 year-round in Minnesota with a wild engine like this? E85 has some hellish cold-start problems that are only going to be made worse by lumpy cams and high compression.

Frankly, you're getting serious enough about this that you should strongly consider a 05-07 manifold with the OEM DBW throttle body (overbored plus PnP) and then a DBW-compatible stand-alone like the AEM. You're going to be in a realm where you're different enough from stock that stand-alone is the way to go.
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Old 08-27-2010, 01:55 AM   #15
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Can the stock ECU not support enough tuning to do so?

E85 year round isn't a problem. I also figure I will have a very mild tune ready to run off just premium if need be. The compression would be low enough to support premium fuel just with a lot less timing. My big gripe with E85 is that it's not E85 all year. It changes and the air/fuel mixture changes with it. It kind of turns out that I would ideally need 3 tunes just to account for each change throughout the seasons or pick one compromise tune that works ok with the whole range. There's a number of local guys running E85 setups, so I plan to get into the details with them before stepping to E85. It's something I want to do, but it's also something that I don't absolutely have to do. It would be nice though.

I've heard the cold start comments before, but I'm not sure why it happens or if there are functional work-arounds for it either in tuning or additives. It isn't exactly diesel fuel, and they do change the ratios to keep the fuel functional in the changing climates.

I don't get the larger TB. The stock one is fine for the flow just as long as you're not trying to rev out the engine. If I was trying to rev to 8k, yeah, I'd so upgrade the TB or at least do as much P&P as I can. However, if I'm sticking to 6.5k-7k tops, the stock TB is plenty big for the air flow and then some.

I'm not really fond of the drive by wire stuff. I do like that it can be "tuned." My bro did this with his FXT and made the power very linear in relation to the throttle position, regardless of what the turbo is doing in the background. It's pretty slick really. I just don't like the whole delay thing, but it's livable I guess.

One goal of this setup is staying (relatively) cheap. A stand alone ECU is not cheap. Adding more and more parts doesn't help either. For example, I still have the option to keep my current intake and just roll with it. While I may leave some power on the table, it would be more cost effective now. There can always be future upgrades of course. I think initially I mostly want the internals set, do the basic refreshing to ensure all the other components are set for the next 100k miles, and start there. Additional upgrades can be added down the road without needing to break open the engine to do so.

Last edited by Back Road Runner; 08-27-2010 at 02:02 AM.
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Old 08-27-2010, 02:04 AM   #16
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You're right that it isn't as bad as diesel. However, the pumping and operating characteristics of E85 do change significantly as the temperatures drop. It's enough that many of the turbo guys around here have starting problems in the winter and some of them reduce boost and switch to 91 octane in the winter.

With respect to the ECU, the parts of the ECU you can tune can be altered significantly enough to run on E85. However, there's a fair amount of stuff I'm running into that's not tunable that's causing moderate drivability problems even with a only moderately crazy engine on pump gas. It's nothing that prevents you from driving the car, just stuff that pisses you off when you're already tired and frustrated. I don't think I'd want to try an even wilder setup without more control over the fine details.

For the throttle, a non-OEM ECU wouldn't have the DBW delays. It would be a much happier setup. The throttle size, as far as I can tell, is related to trying to maximize absolutely every detail.
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Old 08-27-2010, 02:13 AM   #17
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Any benefits to trying to wiring in say a turbo ECU to gain functionality?
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Old 08-27-2010, 02:14 AM   #18
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Not as far as I can tell. They only have the boost control stuff different from us, no real advantages.
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Old 08-27-2010, 05:19 PM   #19
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Seems to be a matter of how far I want to go with this thing.

At the core, it is a simple rebuild of my spare long block. High compression pistons + sti or similar rods seems like a simpl0e upgrade, and I could readily step to uprated bearings at this point too. A new timing belt, pulleys, uprade the oil pump, and new water pump can all be tossed on in the process. This is probably just a little north of $1000 to do. Add a fresh clutch and flywheel, and I should be pretty set for under $2000.

Stepping further, I can look at the heads an do some upgrades with that. I can send it off for P&P w/ 3-angle value and even out all the cylinders. I could toss in some spicy cams while I'm at it. I could very well send heads and pistons off to get coated too at this point. Total cost added: maybe $700-$800?

Stopping off a the dyno for a day and getting it tuned, maybe $250.

By this time I'm sitting somewhere in the neighborhood of $2500-$3000.

By this point I don't see stepping to E85 as much more of a step after this point. Fuel pump and injectors aren't that much more on top for another 5%-10% power. It may be beneficial to invest in a spare ECU and separate tune for E85 in case winter does end up kicking my butt though. +$300 would ensure I'd be fine either way.

$3500 and the engine would be screaming on premium or E85.

The question then comes down to, should I just step to FI if I'm going to plop down this kind of money... :/
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Old 08-27-2010, 05:29 PM   #20
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You're waaaaay underestimating costs.

Let's assume you have a good shortblock and heads.


Rods: $300 ($75 each)
ARP Rod Bolts: $80
Crank: $300
Bearings: $100
TWE High-Comp pistons: $800
Piston coating: $160
Master gasket kit: $200
(the above gets you a built shortblock)

ARP Head Studs: $200
Supertech Valves: $275
Supertech Valve Spring+Retainer Kit: $350
PnP work on heads plus valve job: $800
Coating for Heads and Valves: $250


So you're looking at $3800-$4000 by the time you get it shipped in just the longblock. Then you still have to figure out your ECU, intake manifold, and anything else you bump into.
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Old 08-28-2010, 12:28 AM   #21
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The more I look at this, the more I don't see the value, lol. I think it may come down to how frugal I can be. For example, there are piston + rod packages (including rings and pins)for the price of just the TWE pistons.

I'm not sure if there's much need to touch the valves. I may be able to source a relatively new set of heads with uprated TWE springs and everything, but I'll have to see if the owner has it still. It's freshened up but no P&P, coatings, or different cams. That's $300, maybe less now if he still has them.

I think the shipping, P&P, and coatings will soak up cost though as you state. You think it will really be $800? Maybe I'll shop around locally to see if I can forgo the shipping and get the same work done. I know a local guy who's done several heads of his own. Maybe I can get him to do mine at a good price.
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Old 08-28-2010, 12:33 AM   #22
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Yeah, the piston price was a choke for me as well. It was a shock to walk into Jeg's and see forged piston kits for V8s for $200 a set. It's definitely not affordable to make power out of our engines. The only reason I could even try was working at a shop and now that I've been laid off, the engine project has been canceled and I've got a bunch of stuff to sell if I can.

I would not get stiffer valve springs without valves. A number of people have snapped valves doing that.

Look at what Delta charges for PnP heads. Thousands. I was ecstatic when I could get a local shop to do the PnP and valvejob, with me doing everything else, for $600.
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Old 08-28-2010, 02:55 AM   #23
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I think the cost problem for us is quantity. Low volume sales equals high profit margins to make up for overhead and rate of return. The few of us that do end up buying something get stuck with a large chunk of excess cost. There may not be a good way around this. I know I can grab a full piston + rod set in the $700-$800 range, even separately around that area. The only thing I can't get is high compression off the shelf pistons outside of TWE, although Wiseco could do custom ones.

If the cost is too high, I may leave the heads alone. It's one of those things that doesn't need to get done but would be cool if I could. Step one is an engine that burns no oil and is prepped for the future so to speak. It would be nice to just have all the internals done so the engine wouldn't need to be touched again. I may take up an "apprenticeship" with Fuji K and try to work on my spare heads myself to at least work out the major flaws. Maybe I could get something respectable in the end or at least an improved version to some degree for basically nothing.
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Old 08-31-2010, 02:10 AM   #24
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Hah, so now I'm looking at a stroker kit. The only downside is that there aren't high compression pistons for the format. However, it might be interesting to run about 10:1 with E85 with a little forced induction.

The hard part is me not wanting to go half-assed. This might have to be a build that I have to shelf for a little bit. I may try and get bits and pieces worked on. I have the less worn longblock that can be swapped in for my excessively worn motor. I can then use the highly worn block for the rebuild. In the mean time, I could still step to E85 and give it a run. That would include the fuel pump upgrade, initial step up in injectors(another later if adding a supercharger), and I could step to a Delta 2000 grind. Add an ECU tune, and it's a step up from what I have. At this point I don't burn oil, leak oil, and have my 100k maintenance done. The car can run for a while without hassle and at least lets me see what it'll do with E85. I may have to invest in some aftermarket or piggyback ECU setup.

Then the worn longblock can be taken apart, cleaned, inspected, and worked on. I can toss in a stroker kit and add a little bit of boost. I like superchargers , and so few people here are using them. I want to shoot for a goal of around 250-300 ft-lbs. in the end and keeping compression up, running E85, and running a stroked setup should let me do that with very little boost. I know the tranny and drivetrain can't really handling more and a 6sp is another massive chunk of change beyond that point. In the end, I want a broad, flat torque band that's versatile like it is now, just higher up, haha.

Even without boost, I would expect wtq to be around 170 ft-lbs(ref: stock around 120 ft-lbs), a little higher if compression was higher. This is with the expectation of a 10% gain from stroking and 5% gain from E85, higher if I think I could pull off 10% gains from the fuel change. Stroked, high compression, and E85 could result in somewhere in the neighborhood of 20% to 25% gains in torque in NA format from current or around 180 ft-lbs or 50% over stock peak.

Ugh, so many options.
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Old 08-31-2010, 03:18 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Back Road Runner View Post
Hah, so now I'm looking at a stroker kit. The only downside is that there aren't high compression pistons for the format. However, it might be interesting to run about 10:1 with E85 with a little forced induction.

The hard part is me not wanting to go half-assed. This might have to be a build that I have to shelf for a little bit. I may try and get bits and pieces worked on. I have the less worn longblock that can be swapped in for my excessively worn motor. I can then use the highly worn block for the rebuild. In the mean time, I could still step to E85 and give it a run. That would include the fuel pump upgrade, initial step up in injectors(another later if adding a supercharger), and I could step to a Delta 2000 grind. Add an ECU tune, and it's a step up from what I have. At this point I don't burn oil, leak oil, and have my 100k maintenance done. The car can run for a while without hassle and at least lets me see what it'll do with E85. I may have to invest in some aftermarket or piggyback ECU setup.

Then the worn longblock can be taken apart, cleaned, inspected, and worked on. I can toss in a stroker kit and add a little bit of boost. I like superchargers , and so few people here are using them. I want to shoot for a goal of around 250-300 ft-lbs. in the end and keeping compression up, running E85, and running a stroked setup should let me do that with very little boost. I know the tranny and drivetrain can't really handling more and a 6sp is another massive chunk of change beyond that point. In the end, I want a broad, flat torque band that's versatile like it is now, just higher up, haha.

Even without boost, I would expect wtq to be around 170 ft-lbs(ref: stock around 120 ft-lbs), a little higher if compression was higher. This is with the expectation of a 10% gain from stroking and 5% gain from E85, higher if I think I could pull off 10% gains from the fuel change. Stroked, high compression, and E85 could result in somewhere in the neighborhood of 20% to 25% gains in torque in NA format from current or around 180 ft-lbs or 50% over stock peak.

Ugh, so many options.

Good luck to you, this thread is relevant to my interests.
Is this the stroker kit from rallitek?
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