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Old 04-15-2014, 07:34 PM   #1
neo8222
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Default EJ207 and a BIG turbo

Well I've done a little searching around and I'm having trouble finding the info I'm looking for. At current point I have a bugeye with a EJ207 and a Deadbolt TD06 20G running between 20 to 30psi depending on how I set the waste gate. The car made good power, a little under 400AWHP at max setting... until my head gasket couldn't handle it anymore and blew a out. now I've only got 3 cylinders and a SERIOUS coolant leak XD

I plan to replace the head gasket and possibly refresh the motor depending on how it looks when I open it up. However my question is this...

How well would a version 7 EJ207 hold up to a rotated GTX3582R running meth and possibly the occasional pop of anti-lag (literally 0.5-1 seconds of use under throttle to get the turbo spun and only occasionally)? What kind of spool times would I be looking at? I've seen some 257's get that turbo to spin up at 4-4.2k so would I be safe to think a 207 could get 4.5-5k?

*DISCLAIMER* THE CAR WILL NO LONGER BE A DAILY DRIVER AFTER THIS^^

I've gotten to the point where I want more power and I'm already at my turbo's limit, I got space with my fuel system for more power just not a big enough turbo. I'd like to go 500-550 AWHP for the next step before I build a new motor. Think the EJ207 can handle it?
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Old 04-15-2014, 07:59 PM   #2
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I spool my holset hx35 (about the size of a OG gt3076) at around 4200 rpm. A gtx3582 will be will likely spool well into the 5k area. I would also be concerned that the heads are going to lift again.

Last edited by 207STi; 04-16-2014 at 12:24 PM.
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Old 04-15-2014, 08:27 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by 207STi View Post
I spool my holset hx35 (about the size of a of gt3076) at around 4200 rpm. A gtx3582 will be will likely spool well into the 5k area. I would also be concerned that the heads are going to lift again.
yeah but at the same time, holset turbos use journal bearings. the GTX3582 is a ball bearing turbo which some people say can account for as much as a 500RPM lag on some turbos

At one point I had a garret gt3076 on the car and it started spooling before 4k, normally was hitting high boost around 3800 or so. Those ball bearings to make a good bit of difference.
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Old 04-15-2014, 11:53 PM   #4
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I don't see a 76 lb per min turbo spooling before 5k on a 2 liter regardless of avcs. Do as you will, it already seems like you've got your mind made up. I think it is going to be a straight up 5-8k car.
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Old 04-16-2014, 02:30 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by 207STi View Post
I don't see a 76 lb per min turbo spooling before 5k on a 2 liter regardless of avcs. Do as you will, it already seems like you've got your mind made up. I think it is going to be a straight up 5-8k car.
Agreed, there are plenty of gt35 207 cars. They spool quicker than a non avcs 2.0, but you will still be over 5k on a gt35. Dug-e-fresh went 10's on a gt35 207 car.

Also ball and journal bearing really has nothing to do with it. Holset and BW journal bearings are know to out spool dual ball bearing Garret's.
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Old 04-16-2014, 04:20 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by 207STi View Post
I don't see a 76 lb per min turbo spooling before 5k on a 2 liter regardless of avcs. Do as you will, it already seems like you've got your mind made up. I think it is going to be a straight up 5-8k car.
I suppose you could say that. To a extent I had already known it would be a laggy motor setup that way, I was just a little off on my spool guess. I guessed 4.5k-5k in my original post, so it'd be more like 4.9k-5.4k right? It's not going to be a daily driver so I'm not too worried about the laggy 2.0 thing. Eventually I plan to build a new 2.5L for the car so if I can get that 3582 to run on a 207, I can get my power fix and have a part for the next motor ready to go.

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Agreed, there are plenty of gt35 207 cars. They spool quicker than a non avcs 2.0, but you will still be over 5k on a gt35. Dug-e-fresh went 10's on a gt35 207 car.

Also ball and journal bearing really has nothing to do with it. Holset and BW journal bearings are know to out spool dual ball bearing Garret's.
I didn't know that, learn something new every day. When I pull the motor to repair the head gasket and all that fun I will probably do a little extra work to it. Including steel head gasket and upgraded hardware holding the heads down to help prevent the heads from lifting under boost again. I may go as far a 100% rebuild but that's still up in the air.

Being it would be 5k+ before spool and other people have done it on a 207, that brings me to my next question that I seem to be finding mixed answers on. What is the limiting factor with the 207's rev limit, does it have space to be raised as is? I'm making the assumption to go past 8k I will at least need to rebuild the heads with upgraded parts. Can the short block handle 9k, or would it require extended balancing with slightly looser bearings?

Before the head gasket popped I was running between 75-100 psi of oil pressure hot depending on cruising rpm, and up as high as 115psi around 8K rpm so the oiling system seems pretty healthy on the car
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Old 04-16-2014, 05:25 AM   #7
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I myself would take it to 8500rpm without a second thought. I took my stock 205 to 8200 for over two years with no issues. Its still running perfect in another car today. With proper maintenance it should be fine.
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Old 04-16-2014, 08:05 AM   #8
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To conclude one brands x turbo spools faster than another brands y turbo and x is journal bearing and y is ball bearing doesnt prove that journal bearings spool faster than ball bearings.

You need same brand, same spec turbo, with same wheels and housings. On the same car. One with journal and one with ball bearings to prove that one way or another.

Technically a ball bearing should provide less parisitic loss and therefore faster spool, but what do i know.
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Old 04-16-2014, 08:16 AM   #9
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Keep the heads down and run 30+ psi on the street. Enjoy!
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Old 04-16-2014, 10:57 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neo8222 View Post
What is the limiting factor with the 207's rev limit, does it have space to be raised as is? I'm making the assumption to go past 8k I will at least need to rebuild the heads with upgraded parts. Can the short block handle 9k, or would it require extended balancing with slightly looser bearings?
9k has been done, there has been several vids on youtube over the years.
As far as internals, i would believe you would have to use v8+ pistons as they are lighter than v7, and a fully balanced assembly.
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Old 04-16-2014, 04:11 PM   #11
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9k has been done, there has been several vids on youtube over the years. As far as internals, i would believe you would have to use v8+ pistons as they are lighter than v7, and a fully balanced assembly.
The v8+ is a drastically weaker piston. The v7 is forged the v8+ is not.
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Old 04-16-2014, 07:52 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by 2000subie View Post
The v8+ is a drastically weaker piston. The v7 is forged the v8+ is not.
Thats the obvious that the v7 piston is stronger. You could go forged aftermarket but the point was , its more beneficial for a lighter than stock v7 piston to rev to 9k. 9k rpm doesnt mean more power, just more powerband potential with the right set of cams.
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Old 04-16-2014, 08:19 PM   #13
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I understand the idea of rod stretch with a heavy piston but I would have to agree 2000subie I could never see removing a forged piston and replacing with a weaker hypereutectic piston. That sounds like a recipe for disaster especially shooting for 500+ AWHP. Are the v7 pistons really that heavy? I mean I'm not looking to go crazy with this motor... well any crazier than sticking a fairly large turbo on a lil 2.0 anyways. Even if I only go to 8500, I could see that giving me a boost range of 5.5k-8.5k under full boost that would be more then enough to stay in the power band in all the gears.

What I was looking at was the Single spring upgrade from brian crower to help prevent floating a valve, and assuming the valves and seats are good on my heads, going with a refresh on it (guides, seals, etc..) steel multi layer head gasket, set of ARP head studs and calling it a day there. Maybe a little port and polish work and possibly decking the heads slightly to bump the compression ratio up a little bit.

However since I will be going this far, would anyone else here say it would be worth it to go ahead and refresh the short block too? get the block halves crosshatched , new rings, and bearings? Or is it a case of if it's not broken don't fix it? haha,

I'm open to suggestions on good sources of internal parts for the car I'd love to hear it.
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Old 04-18-2014, 10:32 PM   #14
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I myself would take it to 8500rpm without a second thought. I took my stock 205 to 8200 for over two years with no issues. Its still running perfect in another car today. With proper maintenance it should be fine.
Sorry, but I'm not buying it. The 205 spins bearings like nothing, there is no way a 205 would hold up to 8200rpms repeatedly. Not to mention the stock valves would be floating like crazy and the stock cams have no business in an 8200rpm motor.

8500rpm in a 207 would likely be fine for quite a while, though.
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Old 04-18-2014, 11:13 PM   #15
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Sorry, but I'm not buying it. The 205 spins bearings like nothing, there is no way a 205 would hold up to 8200rpms repeatedly. Not to mention the stock valves would be floating like crazy and the stock cams have no business in an 8200rpm motor. 8500rpm in a 207 would likely be fine for quite a while, though.
Don't buy it. I've done it, I can dig up the dyno sheet of the car making power all the way up there. I would bet you don't believe the stock 205 also made 374whp for well over a year and I beat the piss out of it. It's still running to this day in another car.

I'm also about to do the same with my brothers wagon. And the older ej205's were bad about spinning rods. The 04/05 had the same crank as the 207 and were not as prone to spun bearings.
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Old 04-18-2014, 11:42 PM   #16
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OK well to straighten a few things out since everyone is all over the place, Yea the 205 can spin to 8000 its much better balanced than the 2.5. I had 170k on mine majority of it over 300awhp and the last 75k or so over 350 they don't make power like the 207 though. I now have a built ver8 IMO better than a ver7 its newer and heads are way better I made 489 with a twin scroll kit using a stock spec C header and a BW custom airwerks 7670. Journal bearing. I pushed 26 tapering to 24psi with no issues also made 20psi by 4250 and ran it to 9500 and some occasions with only an 11mm sti pump with avcs and stock ver8 spec C cams, and extra clearance bearing. So feel free to do it if you drive it right and don't beat it to death ot should be fine antilag will mess up the turbo more so than the engine if its really aggressive you can burn valve seats.
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Old 04-28-2014, 04:41 PM   #17
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Old 04-30-2014, 01:47 AM   #18
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Been looking for some 207 setup results and haven't seen much. Not to hyjack the thread, but am interested in seeing some graphs if possible.
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Old 08-07-2014, 11:12 PM   #19
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Thread dig but how did you end up going here?

I run a v10 ej207 quad avcs with a 0.82 gtx3076. Making 550whp but full boost in 3rd (5 speed automatic) doesn't happen til around 4200 on e85.

Was looking to go to a 3576 and same hot side a/r and use antilag or nos to bring it on the Convertor quicker.

As for hypertec pistons being worse - horses for courses. On normal dinosaur fuel yes v7 forged piston anyday. On e85 which is less knock prone, v8 being lighter will be better not to mention better clearances.

I spin mine to 8500 so will see how that goes

Keen to hear your progress

Mick
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Old 08-07-2014, 11:22 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2000subie View Post
The v8+ is a drastically weaker piston. The v7 is forged the v8+ is not.
Quote:
Originally Posted by fastnoypi View Post
Thats the obvious that the v7 piston is stronger. You could go forged aftermarket but the point was , its more beneficial for a lighter than stock v7 piston to rev to 9k. 9k rpm doesnt mean more power, just more powerband potential with the right set of cams.
I realize the Version 8 pistons are alloys and that the version 7's are forgedů.but where do you guys come up with this stuff? Where is your proof? Are you spreading gospel or bunk?

seriously, where is the proof?
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Old 08-08-2014, 12:34 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by dr20t View Post
Thread dig but how did you end up going here?

I run a v10 ej207 quad avcs with a 0.82 gtx3076. Making 550whp but full boost in 3rd (5 speed automatic) doesn't happen til around 4200 on e85.

Was looking to go to a 3576 and same hot side a/r and use antilag or nos to bring it on the Convertor quicker.

As for hypertec pistons being worse - horses for courses. On normal dinosaur fuel yes v7 forged piston anyday. On e85 which is less knock prone, v8 being lighter will be better not to mention better clearances.

I spin mine to 8500 so will see how that goes

Keen to hear your progress

Mick
Micks car is a great example of what stock ej207's can do, watched him trap 127 mph in a full weight liberty, iirc it weighed in at 1560kg at the track, correct me if I'm wrong mick.
I think the gtx3576r is a great turbo for your car Mick, from the info I've gathered the gtx3576r loses very little spool over the gtx3076r but flows much better up top, basically better matched wheels.

But If I was to go rotated on a ej207 I'd go with the bw efr7163 0.85ar ewg, I think that would be a killer combo on a ej207 IMO.
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Old 08-08-2014, 12:49 AM   #22
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Here a vid of my internally stock v8 jdm ej207 coping a beating.
This was my 4th session of my first ever track day, being a noob earlier in the day I warped my disks hence the car shaking under brakes. The ej207's can take it, I went through nearly 80L of e70 on the track that day, not including fuel to get to the track and home.

Last edited by 0STI6; 08-08-2014 at 02:24 AM.
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Old 08-08-2014, 01:47 AM   #23
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Marty - car weighed 1530kg from memory and trapped 125.8

Only reason i would use 3576/ 3582 is to use same location and v band etc. only turbo itself needs to change and it will all line up.
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Old 08-08-2014, 02:24 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by dr20t View Post
Marty - car weighed 1530kg from memory and trapped 125.8

Only reason i would use 3576/ 3582 is to use same location and v band etc. only turbo itself needs to change and it will all line up.
Figured as much, just mentioned the efr if I was to go rotated that would probably be my choice of snail.
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Old 08-08-2014, 11:57 AM   #25
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I realize the Version 8 pistons are alloys and that the version 7's are forgedů.but where do you guys come up with this stuff? Where is your proof? Are you spreading gospel or bunk?

seriously, where is the proof?
All the metallurgy info is out there. The hypereutectic alloy in the v8+ pistons (also used in usdm sti pistons) have alot more silicone content than the v7 pistons. On cold start they are tight and have very little blowby.
Great for emissions if thats your concern. The high silicone makes them harder and less likely to deform but when det happens it can be a full on catastrophic shatter.

If you can guaranty a good tune and/or supplement with good fuel you shouldn't have any worries about v8 pistons.

Feel free to supplement your research on Googling 2618 vs 4032 forged pistons. Its the same debate about low silicone content vs higher silicone content pros/cons.
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