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Old 09-01-2010, 10:26 PM   #1
Engmus
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Default Whats up with this paint?!

So im working on a car I recently bought, its 23 years old, the paint is original and had alot of haze and oxidation in it. Didn't seem like it would be tough to beat.

Heres the process I first used...

"Wash" - Pressure Washer Used
Under Carriage Blasted, degreased, blasted.
Foam Gun and Adams Car Shampoo
Lamb Skin Wool Mitt, Adams Car Shampoo
Adams Clay Bar
x2 Wash using another Lamb Skin Mitt
Used Dual Buckets with Grit Gaurds.
Dried with large Microfiber towels

Worked out the interior, then did the exterior like so...


Did a quick spot shine with Adams Detail Spray.
Then took my Portal cable and hit the exterior with the following products...
Menzerna Power Gloss
Menzerna Super Intensive Polish
Menzerna Power Finish PO203
Menzerna Super Finish PO106FA
Menzerna Final Finish PO85RD
Menzerna Final Glaze PO115
2 Coats of P21S Wax (Let sit until dry\full cure)
Washed again, dried again.


The car came out GREAT. I was throughly satisfied...however fast forward two months and the car again is suffering from the starts of what appears to be oxidation, and whenever I buff the car my pads gunk up with not product...but something the color of the car, I dont think its paint because the finish isn't fading after I buff, really im kinda lost.

This is what the Pads look like...





Could the paint be very thin? Or the clear coat gone? Is this correctable? I dont want to continue to rebuff the car down to the metal, and I've obviously stopped until I know what im dealing with.

Thanks for the input.
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Old 09-01-2010, 10:38 PM   #2
Subydude81
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The first time u used the PC did the pads turn this color at all? Paint being very thin is of course possible. If the clear coat is gone its not correctable unless you get the car re-cleared. Once the clear coats gone, its gone for good.
Some cars have a single stage paint where the basecoat/clearcoat are 1 layer and paint transfer onto the pad is normal. Let us the know what type of car it is.

Rich

Last edited by Subydude81; 09-01-2010 at 11:00 PM.
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Old 09-01-2010, 10:38 PM   #3
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If the car is 23 years old, VERY good chances it is single stage paint(red, would be my guess , so instead of polishing clear and seeing only the polish residue on your pads, you're seeing that oxidized paint that you're polishing off.


What is the vehicle you are working on? Polishing off oxidized paint with foam makes them load up pretty fast and especially with the Buff and Shine 5.5 inchers you have from DD they load up fast because of just their size and the amount of oxidation.


Oxidation on very old single stage paints can sometimes be a pain. Polishing oils can actually hide the problem and make it look better, almost "feeding" some of the oxidized dryness, hiding it until the beauty waxes wear off and those oils have a chance to flash off and you get spotting and patchyness from the oxidation was not removed and is now showing.

Waxing a vehicle can protect it to some lengths but waxes that don't have tremendous durability like P21S will also make the problem come back faster. Not to mention sometimes oxidation is bad enough where its dry and needs maintenance.

Otherwise if this is base clear and you weren't getting color transfer before but you are now, then that means you struck through the clear into the color.

Last edited by AutoAesthetica; 09-01-2010 at 10:45 PM.
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Old 09-01-2010, 10:44 PM   #4
Engmus
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The first time through, it was doing the same thing same amount of color.

Less color, less aggressive the pad.

The car is a 23 year old Toyota in Red. ha
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Old 09-01-2010, 10:48 PM   #5
Kean
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....with the age and charateristics you desribe, it's single stage paint as AA mentions. Here's a link to an excellent thread discussing the differences between clear coat and single stage finishes:

(removed link for the meantime until Autopia resolves their virus issues)

Last edited by Kean; 09-01-2010 at 10:58 PM.
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Old 09-01-2010, 10:49 PM   #6
Engmus
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^More concerning is the oxidation returning. I thought I had this beat. I didn't cut as hard initially with pads the first time.

Is there a LSP I should be looking into?
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Old 09-01-2010, 10:50 PM   #7
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Autopia is infected with some pretty serious trojan/virus stuff. I would stay clear from that link for a while..
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Old 09-01-2010, 10:51 PM   #8
Engmus
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^Thanks for the heads up.
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Old 09-01-2010, 10:56 PM   #9
AutoAesthetica
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Engmus View Post
^More concerning is the oxidation returning. I thought I had this beat. I didn't cut as hard initially with pads the first time.

Is there a LSP I should be looking into?
Sometimes paint is just old and dry, like I touched on sometimes those oily polishes(Like Menzerna Super Intensive Polish
Menzerna Power Finish PO203
Menzerna Super Finish PO106FA
Menzerna Final Finish PO85RD
Menzerna Final Glaze PO115(esp this)) can really hide it where their polishes are designed to work long but need to be well lubricated, sorta like an unwanted side effect. I will say that I have no doubt you cut through at least some of the oxidation but obviously now you're experiencing product choice limitation for this type of job.

Basically when dealing with oxidation, cleaner style polishes are needed. Not to be confused with some of today's detailing definition of cleaning, these older polishes have a better amount of chemical cleaners designed to get through that oxidation and not just accidentally feed while the mechanical packages in modern abrasives abrade off the stuff. Don't get me wrong modern polishes do a great job but old nasty oxidized clear is a different ball game(now that you have seen ).

One thing to look into is the older Meguiars #80 series, they are oily but they have much better cleaning action as well as their abrasive packages and on a rotary and wool work wonders on oxidized gunk(this may be uncharted territory for ya).



Are you a DA or a rotary user? And what made you chose your Menzerna products over others?

There comes a point as well when some nearly dead paint is just that, nearly dead. But its tough to tell because you need to get through that top layer(s) to be able to evaluate it to that.

Otherwise once you are sure you got the oxidation off, a durable carnauba cannot be beat on red single stage.
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Old 09-01-2010, 10:59 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AutoAesthetica View Post
Autopia is infected with some pretty serious trojan/virus stuff. I would stay clear from that link for a while..
Thanks AA. I removed the link for the meantime. I thought they had the issue licked already.
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Old 09-01-2010, 11:02 PM   #11
Engmus
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I've used both a DA and Rotary, its been awhile since I used a full on rotary, and even then I always hated wool pads because of the fibers that remain...everywhere.

I've always been a fan of foam cutting pads.

I can hit again with those polishes mentioned, but at the moment I was giving the following a try...

Menzerna Power Gloss with Yellow Compound DD pad.
Adams Swirl and Haze Remover with Green Polish DD Pad
Adams Polish with Blue Glaze\Final Polish DD Pad
Adams Buttery Wax with Black Glaze\Wax\Sealant Pad

I was trying not to post anywhere on Nasioc my new hobby\toy, but I need help deciding if the paint is "dead" so here are some shots.

Roof


Drivers Side Fender


Side Profile
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Old 09-01-2010, 11:02 PM   #12
Engmus
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Those photos are after the initial (see first post) detail.
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Old 09-01-2010, 11:23 PM   #13
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Well the first time through looks great, I'm sorry you're having such issues.

If you using the Buff and Shine(DD) cutting pad, and if you're open to test it, give a section a hit with some powergloss on the buff and shine yellow and then wait.. as in days maybe let it sun for a while. Otherwise you might multistep it again, have it look good but then have it come back again in a few more weeks.. Then you know the oils just concealed it a bit... A bit of an odd strategy I know but considering the paint is clearly revived from before and knowing how hard you hit it, you may have to tread lightly. Do you have a way to measure paint thickness?

I think with Adams and with the Menzerna unless it was really light oxidation(which I suppose you could be getting to) you may be playing the conceal/correct game because they are so well lubricated.

Would you say the red transfer is coming off easily in large amounts? Usually with non oxidized single stage paint you don't get such a huge transfer(oxidation can sometimes be quite thick but also quite soft situation depending). Obviously you can't tell everything from pictures but they don't look terrible, though you can see some of the cloudiness setting in.
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Old 09-01-2010, 11:30 PM   #14
Engmus
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The oxidation (transfer to pads) is heavy, very heavy in the more aggressive cut pads.

I can get a single panel done before the transfer has made the pads cutting ability null.

I did the front drivers side fender and the transfer (pictured above) was intense. It requires the pads to be throughly cleaned.

I can easily ruin a set of these pads doing the entire car.
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Old 09-02-2010, 02:16 AM   #15
khail19
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Sorry I have no advice to give, but that's an amazing looking Corolla. Very nice!
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Old 09-03-2010, 12:46 AM   #16
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Yes, this car looks awesome.


I think the tough part is trying to decide through just photos whether you're still cutting through softer oxidation or whether the paint is just soft. No doubt so far that some of the oxidation was just kinda hidden but would you say the paint is soft to begin with? Does it marr easily?

Does the lower half of the vehicle(which wouldn't have seen so much sunlight) polish with less transfer?
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Old 09-03-2010, 11:43 AM   #17
Engmus
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Due to the age AutoAesthetica its hard to tell, its got some imperfections that im sure can't be corrected by my means.

I haven't ever really started at the bottom of a panel, I can do that today and take note on the transfer.

The only thing I can say to the transfer is the more aggressive the product\pad combination the more transfer I get.
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Old 09-03-2010, 12:09 PM   #18
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And that is as expected, no worries. You are using a mild(relative) abrasive to delicately shear off the top layer(s) of paint removing where it is basically deposited after removal into your pad and microfiber towels.

If this were clearcoated, you wouldnt see anything on the pad but the color of the polish residue. No difference otherwise aside from the oxidation.
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Old 09-09-2010, 10:14 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Engmus View Post
The first time through, it was doing the same thing same amount of color.

Less color, less aggressive the pad.

The car is a 23 year old Toyota in Red. ha
I feel your pain! I've got a 73 MGB-GT. Someone eons ago painted it red. Looks good for about a week then.......well you already know. RP
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Old 09-09-2010, 04:23 PM   #20
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Yeah, Toyota used single stage paint on all their non-metallic colors until the mid/late 90's (I've even heard of the occasional black lexus from the late 90's that was single stage)

Back when I had my 93 MR2, it would get really dull FAST and it was even covered with a car cover and protected with multiples layers of sealant. I remember back then (circa 2002-3) I used Zaino's single stage paint protection occasionally (before I started detailing heavily). Not sure if they still sell it or if it's really good.

It looks like Zaino still sells non-clear coat paint protection

http://www.zainostore.com/Merchant2/...roduct_Count=7
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