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Old 09-12-2010, 04:29 PM   #1
TurboQueef
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Silver/Black,11.44@123.60

Default Feedback: Injector Dynamics top feed conversion & Daily Driving

Hi,

I am tired of waiting for DW to release the 1000 cc injectors... and have severely maxed out the 850's.

I am considering installing a set of Injector Dynamics with the top feed conversion rails on my 2005 STi.

My research to date (just looking at photos on T1 site) has me a little worried about the top feed conversion reliability. The mounting of the rail looks to be a little weak but it is very hard to tell by just the photos.

I am looking for feedback from members who have already installed these injectors in their vehicle. I do not need "opinions" from those who know the theory... I would like facts from those who have been running the injectors for a few miles.

I daily drive my built STi and don't want something that is going to give me problems .... like leaks, for pooie idle etc.

If anyone out there has experience with these injectors and top feed kit, please give me your feedback to the following questions:

** What year is your STi

** What size injectors are you running

** How many miles do you have on the injectors

** What performance level are you at (HP/TQ 1/4 mile ET & MPH)

** Have you experienced any problems with the install?

** How do the fuel lines connect up to the top feed blocks (photos would be GREAT)

Thanks a lot for any detail you can provide.

Jeff B
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Old 09-12-2010, 04:37 PM   #2
CKxx
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Your BOV sounds lame
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The rails mount solidly. The only downside would be that you have to make your own lines. All the nice rails require this, so it's not really a negative.
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Old 09-12-2010, 04:47 PM   #3
NSFW
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My car is an 05 LGT, but the shortblock is pretty much the same as the STI from the same era. It came with side-feed injectors and I was using Perrin 816s prior to installing ID 1000s with the conversion kit. I have about 2000 miles since the conversion.

I still need to get dynoed, but I'm running an ATP 3076 at around 23psi peak, tapering to 22. Should be good for about 400 on a dynojet.

Idle is great. In boost, my measured AFRs match my fuel table far more closely than with the Perrins. The old injectors would go lean at certain RPM/load combinations, so my fuel table had 'holes' dug into it in a couple places. Getting AFRs correct was quite an annoyance. ID 1000s were much easier. I also get much less random 'false' knock when running conservative timing, which makes me wonder if the knock I had been getting was false after all, or if it was legit knock due to uneven fueling. So, I'm really happy with the IDs and I wish I'd switched to them sooner.

I did the install without removing the intake manifold, but if I was to do it again I'd pull the IM and TGV housings from the block and do most of the work on a bench.

I used a combination of -6AN-to-5/16-barb fittings (with rubber fuel hose) and -6AN/ORB-to-6AN fittings (with Earl's Speedflex hose).

Details and pictures here:
http://legacygt.com/forums/showthrea...ap-139738.html
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Old 09-12-2010, 05:18 PM   #4
TurboQueef
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Thank you both for the super quick reply...

Exactly what I was looking for...
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Old 09-12-2010, 05:22 PM   #5
TurboQueef
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NSFW View Post
My car is an 05 LGT, but the shortblock is pretty much the same as the STI from the same era. It came with side-feed injectors and I was using Perrin 816s prior to installing ID 1000s with the conversion kit. I have about 2000 miles since the conversion.

I still need to get dynoed, but I'm running an ATP 3076 at around 23psi peak, tapering to 22. Should be good for about 400 on a dynojet.

Idle is great. In boost, my measured AFRs match my fuel table far more closely than with the Perrins. The old injectors would go lean at certain RPM/load combinations, so my fuel table had 'holes' dug into it in a couple places. Getting AFRs correct was quite an annoyance. ID 1000s were much easier. I also get much less random 'false' knock when running conservative timing, which makes me wonder if the knock I had been getting was false after all, or if it was legit knock due to uneven fueling. So, I'm really happy with the IDs and I wish I'd switched to them sooner.

I did the install without removing the intake manifold, but if I was to do it again I'd pull the IM and TGV housings from the block and do most of the work on a bench.

I used a combination of -6AN-to-5/16-barb fittings (with rubber fuel hose) and -6AN/ORB-to-6AN fittings (with Earl's Speedflex hose).

Details and pictures here:
http://legacygt.com/forums/showthrea...ap-139738.html
Thanks for the photo link... very good info...

I was hoping to perform the install without removing the intake... but... I installed all of those nasty bolts under it during the refresh...

Regarding the tune... my expectation is that after installing the 1000's, I will need to adjust the injector flow scaling and minor adjustments to the intake calibration to meet target.. is this what you experienced?

Thanks again.

Jeff
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Old 09-12-2010, 05:23 PM   #6
TurboQueef
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by NSFW View Post
My car is an 05 LGT, but the shortblock is pretty much the same as the STI from the same era. It came with side-feed injectors and I was using Perrin 816s prior to installing ID 1000s with the conversion kit. I have about 2000 miles since the conversion.

I still need to get dynoed, but I'm running an ATP 3076 at around 23psi peak, tapering to 22. Should be good for about 400 on a dynojet.

Idle is great. In boost, my measured AFRs match my fuel table far more closely than with the Perrins. The old injectors would go lean at certain RPM/load combinations, so my fuel table had 'holes' dug into it in a couple places. Getting AFRs correct was quite an annoyance. ID 1000s were much easier. I also get much less random 'false' knock when running conservative timing, which makes me wonder if the knock I had been getting was false after all, or if it was legit knock due to uneven fueling. So, I'm really happy with the IDs and I wish I'd switched to them sooner.

I did the install without removing the intake manifold, but if I was to do it again I'd pull the IM and TGV housings from the block and do most of the work on a bench.

I used a combination of -6AN-to-5/16-barb fittings (with rubber fuel hose) and -6AN/ORB-to-6AN fittings (with Earl's Speedflex hose).

Details and pictures here:
http://legacygt.com/forums/showthrea...ap-139738.html
Woop's.. sorry... forgot a question... did you go with the PNP harness or other method for electrical interface?

tnx
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Old 09-12-2010, 06:42 PM   #7
Junior2JZ
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Do it, you wont regret it. I have them on my race car and I am installing them on my street car XT. Fit and finish is awesome and the injectors are super easy to tune and make power on.

Jr
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Old 09-12-2010, 07:04 PM   #8
TurboQueef
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Junior2JZ View Post
Do it, you wont regret it. I have them on my race car and I am installing them on my street car XT. Fit and finish is awesome and the injectors are super easy to tune and make power on.

Jr
Thanks Jr...

Jeff
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Old 09-12-2010, 07:38 PM   #9
juanmedina
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I am currently running cheap 1200cc injectors from EBAY. Let me tell they rock , the car starts soooo easy, the car is super smooth and quite now IDK why. My tune is not finish, I am in Canada right now; you can ask Phatron about my car.

I love the injectors, they are cheap, they are true drop ins plug & play, no CAR connectors or anything, they come with everything you need for the install and they are EV14s.
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Old 09-12-2010, 08:13 PM   #10
jason miller
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Juan- What were you running before, how long have you had the 1200's, and did you get them from five-0?
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Old 09-12-2010, 09:06 PM   #11
juanmedina
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jason miller View Post
Juan- What were you running before, how long have you had the 1200's, and did you get them from five-0?

yeah fiveO, I used to have modded witchunter light blue wrx injectors flowing 860cc they worked excellent but with the fiveO it feels much smoother. I have been in Mikey's car and he has ID1000 it feels just as nice.
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Old 09-13-2010, 01:46 AM   #12
NSFW
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ATP 3076, 6MT, AVO FMIC

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Quote:
Originally Posted by TurboQueef View Post
I was hoping to perform the install without removing the intake... but... I installed all of those nasty bolts under it during the refresh...

Regarding the tune... my expectation is that after installing the 1000's, I will need to adjust the injector flow scaling and minor adjustments to the intake calibration to meet target.. is this what you experienced?
After I wrote that bit about the intake manifold I remembered the stock fuel lines... if you've already removed the hard lines under the manifolds, then it's possible to do the swap with the intake manifold in place. I loosened my IM (removed the mounting bolts), but only to get a little bit of wiggle room - all the hoses stayed connected. If you still have the factory hard lines bolted to the underside of the IM, you'll absolutely need to remove the IM to get the hard lines out.

I used ID's numbers for the scaling and major MAF curve adjustments since my existing MAF scaling wasn't very good. (While chasing those lean spots from the old injectors I made some corrections in the fuel table that should have been made to the MAF scaling, so I had to undo those.) If your MAF curve is already good, then it shouldn't take much adjustment at all. I used the provided latencies plus 10%, though in retrospect I should probably undo the +10% and tweak the low end of the MAF scaling instead. I had no latency specs for my previous injectors, so my MAF scaling was off a little.

You'll also need to adjust your cranking injector pulse width tables. These are in milliseconds, so they're not affected by the flow scaling change. Oddly enough, I had no trouble with cranking when I was using the stock values in those tables (Merchgod had not discovered them until recently), but the ID 1000s really need those to be adjusted. Just multiply all of the cells by (old scaling / ID 1000 scaling) and that should do it.

I'm using T1's PNP leads, and they're working fine.
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Old 09-13-2010, 04:25 PM   #13
R4ND0M_AX3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NSFW View Post
...You'll also need to adjust your cranking injector pulse width tables. These are in milliseconds, so they're not affected by the flow scaling change. Oddly enough, I had no trouble with cranking when I was using the stock values in those tables (Merchgod had not discovered them until recently), but the ID 1000s really need those to be adjusted. Just multiply all of the cells by (old scaling / ID 1000 scaling) and that should do it...
Small tanget here. Is latency factored in or are these settings purely ms on time per cycle?

If latency is not factored then shouldn't we figure out how much fuel the stock tables are requesting then calc what it takes to make the new injector deliver the same quantity?

At small pulse widths a larger injector can sometimes look the same as a smaller injector, fuel deliverywise, due to the larger mass of the injector guts taking more time to open.
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Old 09-13-2010, 06:19 PM   #14
norexyet
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They are a nice piece. I just put another set in an 06 sti a few days ago. It had some clearance issues with the avcs bracket but a little use of an airsaw fixed it. We used some -6 90 degree pushlock fittings on the railends and an S-Max Fpr, worked out well and the car runs great. Hope that helps.

-Justin
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Old 09-13-2010, 08:10 PM   #15
TurboQueef
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Hey guys.. thanks a BUNCH for all of the info... I have just a couple more questions...

** The stock fuel rails are fed in series but I wonder if it would be a better idea to feed them in parallel so if fuel pressure drops both banks feel it at same time.

** I am clueless on the type of fittings and hoses that can be used with the T1 rails... I don't want to source the o-ring separate from the fitting... who makes the proper fittings, o-rings and hose (s) that the rails are designed for. (sorry if this seems like a stupid question ... but after determining my APS turbo inlet came with a "fuel line" that was not designed for fuel... which caused a severe fuel seeping stink issue.. I don't want to take any chances)

Thanks again for all of the great information.

Jeff
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Old 09-14-2010, 02:29 AM   #16
NSFW
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R4ND0M_AX3 View Post
Small tanget here. Is latency factored in or are these settings purely ms on time per cycle?

If latency is not factored then shouldn't we figure out how much fuel the stock tables are requesting then calc what it takes to make the new injector deliver the same quantity?

At small pulse widths a larger injector can sometimes look the same as a smaller injector, fuel deliverywise, due to the larger mass of the injector guts taking more time to open.
The ECU's latency values are just a function of battery voltage - as voltage drops latencies increase. Any flow-dependent nonlinearity would probably manifest itself in the MAF scaling curve. And without some kind of independent verification of the MAF scaling, there's no way to know if the injectors flow linearly, or if we've already made compensated for it without being aware that we were doing so.
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Old 09-14-2010, 02:33 AM   #17
NSFW
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TurboQueef View Post
** The stock fuel rails are fed in series but I wonder if it would be a better idea to feed them in parallel so if fuel pressure drops both banks feel it at same time.
I'm using stock-style series routing, and it's working fine, but I also wonder.

Quote:
** I am clueless on the type of fittings and hoses that can be used with the T1 rails... I don't want to source the o-ring separate from the fitting... who makes the proper fittings, o-rings and hose (s) that the rails are designed for.
Lucky for you, someone asked the same question a few days ago, and most of the answers are in:

http://legacygt.com/forums/showthrea...ns-145310.html
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Old 09-15-2010, 05:50 AM   #18
TurboQueef
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Very helpful information... thank you.

Yesterday I ordered the injector dynamics kit... should arrive Friday...

Today I will order the aeromotive regulator and full set of intake gaskets

Not looking forward to the install but it will be worth the effort based on all of your feedback!!!

Thanks again

Jeff
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