Welcome to the North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club Tuesday July 22, 2014
Home Forums WikiNASIOC Products Store Modifications Upgrade Garage
NASIOC
Here you can view your subscribed threads, work with private messages and edit your profile and preferences Home Registration is free! Visit the NASIOC Store NASIOC Rules Search Find other members Frequently Asked Questions Calendar Archive NASIOC Upgrade Garage Logout
Go Back   NASIOC > NASIOC Technical > Built Motor Discussion

Welcome to NASIOC - The world's largest online community for Subaru enthusiasts!
Welcome to the NASIOC.com Subaru forum.

You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our community, free of charge, you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is free, fast and simple, so please join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 10-01-2010, 10:37 PM   #1
AW Sti
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 202929
Join Date: Feb 2009
Default 100mm pistons (0.20 bore) Safe?

I'm currently running forged internals and I'm planning going to 500-550whp with a 6262 turbo, but I'm not sure if that's safe having a 0.20 bore.
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
AW Sti is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-02-2010, 10:39 AM   #2
jkopinga
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 220799
Join Date: Aug 2009
Chapter/Region: International
Location: Taiwan
Vehicle:
2006 Impreza WRX
WRC Blue

Default

To be honest it's not even safe long term on a original bore size. Stock liners at this power level will fail but when nobody can tell you. A conservative tune will make everything last longer but then again it may not make the numbers you mention.

Cheers,

Jasper Kopinga
CS Racing
Taiwan.
jkopinga is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-02-2010, 02:07 PM   #3
AW Sti
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 202929
Join Date: Feb 2009
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jkopinga View Post
To be honest it's not even safe long term on a original bore size. Stock liners at this power level will fail but when nobody can tell you. A conservative tune will make everything last longer but then again it may not make the numbers you mention.

Cheers,

Jasper Kopinga
CS Racing
Taiwan.
What would you recommend? Darton Sleeves?

This is my list of mods: (engine not fully finished yet)
-CP 100mm Pistons
-Manley H-Beam rods
-PTE 6262 Turbo (ball bearing)
-ACL Race bearings
-(will buy) 2009 Sti nitrated crankshaft
-Gates Kevlar belt
-TGV Deletes
-ARP Head studs
-FMIC
-AEM Water/meth system
-(planning to buy) STG 3 cams
-(planning to buy) Hydra EMS


Also, whats the best way to do the Break-in?
-What oil to use?
-How many oil changes/ during how many miles?
AW Sti is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2010, 06:40 AM   #4
jkopinga
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 220799
Join Date: Aug 2009
Chapter/Region: International
Location: Taiwan
Vehicle:
2006 Impreza WRX
WRC Blue

Default

Hi there,

Your list of mods look good. Head studs are a MUST at that power level otherwise head gaskets will most likely be popping randomly every now and then. Water/Meth is good when you want to get the most from a pump gas powered car.

Sleeves are better for sustained high power output BUT you always have risks of sleeves dropping. IF you are going sleeves it seems Darton or AEBS are the among the best out there. The good thing about OE liners is that they won't drop but may shear and if you go to 100mm this will become only more likely.

Regarding the break-in...........it is always hard to make a recommendation. The best is to follow the recommendation given by your engine builder. At least he knows what you have done should problems arise. Failure to follow his advise may have them blaming you when problems arise.

Personally I like to run it in HARD. I want to get the rings seated within 50km. I normally fire up the engine and let it idle for a while whilst checking the fluids that they are topped off AND stay where they should be. Then I drive off and do lots of acceleration and deceleration on the engine. It's important not to drive it at constant revs. Do lots of gear changes with lots of accelerations and decelerations. After 50 to 100km. I dump the oil (mineral oil) and fill it up with fresh oil and run another 100km and dump the oil again. Don't be afraid to run some boost straight out of the box. I run full boost normally after 50km. or so. After 100km. it is fully run in and I will take it on a circuit to race.

However I can make sure that whoever you ask will tell you a different approach. So my best advise is listen to your engine builder.

Cheers,

Jasper Kopinga
CS Racing
Taiwan.
jkopinga is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2010, 10:53 AM   #5
RicersWetDream
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 245581
Join Date: Apr 2010
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Marshall, MI
Vehicle:
2009 WRX
Spark Silver Metallic

Default

I would say if you're sticking with Manley rods, go turbo tuff I-beams... H-beams are only rated to 600chp, which your 500-550whp goal will be well over.
RicersWetDream is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2010, 11:20 AM   #6
al82
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 177913
Join Date: Apr 2008
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: Miramar, FL
Vehicle:
2011 WRX STi PBP

Default

You have an excellent combo of parts there. First of all to your first question, will 100mm pistons hold up to the 6262? I would said it would but you would not be able to hit your hp goals. To hit those numbers you should be boosting at 28psi or above and from my own research on this site ppl at that boost levels are either sleeved or closed deck. I am planning on going the 6262 route as well but my goal is 400whp.

Breaking in the engine, everyone will tell you their own way but I'm following my mechanics way because they rebuild hundreds of Lamborghini engine so I trust them. I'm currently in the process of breaking in my built motor so this is what I'm doing. For the first thousand miles, you need to shift at 2k rpm and keep it out of boost. Or run the car for 20 hours, which ever comes first. You need to use 5w30 oil here.
After that 1000 miles drain the oil and take a look at your oil. Inspect the oil and make sure there is no metal shavings or anything that's not supposed to be there. After that for the next 1000 miles you need to shift at 2500 rpm and again keep it out of boost. During this time you need to use 10w40 oil.
It's an agonizing 2000 miles but this is if you want your motor to last.
Goodluck with your build man....
al82 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2010, 11:27 AM   #7
Built Industries
NASIOC Vendor
 
Member#: 33839
Join Date: Mar 2003
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: Sanford Fl
Vehicle:
2002 WRX
Black

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jkopinga View Post
To be honest it's not even safe long term on a original bore size. Stock liners at this power level will fail but when nobody can tell you. A conservative tune will make everything last longer but then again it may not make the numbers you mention.

Cheers,

Jasper Kopinga
CS Racing
Taiwan.
Respectfully disagree.

I have personally driven a 500 plus WHP STI for over 25,000 miles on 100 mm bore pistons and the stock liners.

I have also built plenty of 500 ft/lb rally engines on stock liners - you think 500 WHP is hard on a block, have it las in a rally car for a season and I think you would agree 500 WHP is an easily attainable goal on the stock liners.

Disclaimer - any build is only as good as the tune up.

Mike Huml
Slowboy -
Built Industries is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2010, 12:25 PM   #8
wrxwhat
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 87653
Join Date: May 2005
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: Orlando, FL
Vehicle:
500 hp STI / 1100hp
Supra T / Stock G35

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jkopinga View Post
To be honest it's not even safe long term on a original bore size. Stock liners at this power level will fail but when nobody can tell you. A conservative tune will make everything last longer but then again it may not make the numbers you mention.

Cheers,

Jasper Kopinga
CS Racing
Taiwan.
That's a funny statement and completely untrue. We have a 100mm bore engine that has been our test mule for the past 40,000 miles and 3-4 years
wrxwhat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2010, 07:43 PM   #9
my99210kw
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 180429
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Australia
Vehicle:
99 WRX
Dark green

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by AW Sti View Post
I'm currently running forged internals and I'm planning going to 500-550whp with a 6262 turbo, but I'm not sure if that's safe having a 0.20 bore.
I had Darton sleeves drop after 3000 km's, I have now had ej257 block closed decked then boared/honed to 100mm bore. I plan on running this set up at 350kw, the sleeved block lasted till 320kw then dropped all 4 sleeves. This obviously occurred due to poor install of sleeves.
my99210kw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2010, 08:27 PM   #10
methaddict
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 159738
Join Date: Sep 2007
Chapter/Region: SCIC
Location: Socal
Vehicle:
2004 WRB STi
Full Race TS, BW 8374 EFR

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slowboy View Post
Respectfully disagree.

I have personally driven a 500 plus WHP STI for over 25,000 miles on 100 mm bore pistons and the stock liners.

I have also built plenty of 500 ft/lb rally engines on stock liners - you think 500 WHP is hard on a block, have it las in a rally car for a season and I think you would agree 500 WHP is an easily attainable goal on the stock liners.

Disclaimer - any build is only as good as the tune up.

Mike Huml
Slowboy -
Glad to hear that since I'm running 100mm CP pistons on stock liners. BTW I'm using Manley turbo tuff Ibeam rods and can handle 1000 hp. I didn't want the iron sleeve route due to problems with sleeves dropping and cooling issues.
methaddict is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2010, 09:50 PM   #11
john 1badSTI
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 77470
Join Date: Dec 2004
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: grove city ohio
Vehicle:
04 sti 10.51@138.5
on e85@ 30psi--spinning

Default

just as mike said above its all in the tune ---I have built numerous stock sleeve 100mm cp pistoned motors that have made well over 500whp and a few that have made close to 650whp with no problems.with a good tune you should be ok it is detonation that cracks cylinders much more than high boost.good luck
john 1badSTI is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2010, 09:55 PM   #12
Prevent
*** Banned ***
 
Member#: 149114
Join Date: May 2007
Location: I'm too mainstream
Default

I think you'll be fine. For safety though and peace of mind, i went with a 99.75mm piston, so i could retain as much as the stock sleeve as i could.
Prevent is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2010, 10:28 PM   #13
AW Sti
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 202929
Join Date: Feb 2009
Default

Thanks to all the replies/comments. I feel more comfortable now with my 100mm bore.


Quote:
Originally Posted by al82 View Post
You have an excellent combo of parts there. First of all to your first question, will 100mm pistons hold up to the 6262? I would said it would but you would not be able to hit your hp goals. To hit those numbers you should be boosting at 28psi or above and from my own research on this site ppl at that boost levels are either sleeved or closed deck. I am planning on going the 6262 route as well but my goal is 400whp.


Goodluck with your build man....
Y believe that turbo is capable of 500whp @~24psi with meth (not sure)
But I'm damn sure that for only 400whp it will be an understatement for the 6262 LOL.

------------------------

BTW: Hey Slowboy (Marti)! It's Efrain from PR. Pretty soon my mechanic will have the engine for assembly and you HAVE to hook me up with your prices.
AW Sti is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2010, 04:20 AM   #14
jkopinga
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 220799
Join Date: Aug 2009
Chapter/Region: International
Location: Taiwan
Vehicle:
2006 Impreza WRX
WRC Blue

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slowboy View Post
Respectfully disagree.

I have personally driven a 500 plus WHP STI for over 25,000 miles on 100 mm bore pistons and the stock liners.

I have also built plenty of 500 ft/lb rally engines on stock liners - you think 500 WHP is hard on a block, have it las in a rally car for a season and I think you would agree 500 WHP is an easily attainable goal on the stock liners.

Disclaimer - any build is only as good as the tune up.

Mike Huml
Slowboy -

If 25k miles in your opinion is reliable then you may be right. However in my book 25k miles is nothing and I drive more than that in a year. If my engine would only last for that amount of miles I wouldn't call it reliable. Ofcourse 500 WHP is easily doable on 100mm bores....hell even a lot more than that. As you say it's all in the tune but I think you also know if the tune is too conservative you simply won't hit the numbers. I'm not here to argue with you but I won't be the one to give people hope when it's really a matter of luck with stock liners and this kind of power level.

To the OP: Go ahead and use the 100mm bore. I would do the same. Hell I would even run larger than that if I have to due to reusing the block for a rebuild BUT I will never expect it to last at that sort of power levels. I have seen blocks putting out OVER 600 lb/ft and almost 750 WHP. To be honest WHP doesn't mean ****e to the liners. It's torque as in cylinder pressures that wears them down real quick.

EG. You could NEVER reliably run 600 lb/ft @ 4k rpm on stock liners BUT you can make 600 WHP if this is to be made at 7.5 or 8k rpm as the cylinder pressures will be much lower.

Good luck with the build!

Cheers,

Jasper Kopinga
CS Racing
Taiwan.
jkopinga is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2010, 01:21 PM   #15
Equilibrium Tuning
NASIOC Vendor
 
Member#: 26933
Join Date: Oct 2002
Chapter/Region: BAIC
Location: Fairfield, CA
Vehicle:
2006 STI
CGM

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by al82 View Post

Breaking in the engine, everyone will tell you their own way but I'm following my mechanics way because they rebuild hundreds of Lamborghini engine so I trust them. I'm currently in the process of breaking in my built motor so this is what I'm doing. For the first thousand miles, you need to shift at 2k rpm and keep it out of boost. Or run the car for 20 hours, which ever comes first. You need to use 5w30 oil here.
After that 1000 miles drain the oil and take a look at your oil. Inspect the oil and make sure there is no metal shavings or anything that's not supposed to be there. After that for the next 1000 miles you need to shift at 2500 rpm and again keep it out of boost. During this time you need to use 10w40 oil.
It's an agonizing 2000 miles but this is if you want your motor to last.
Goodluck with your build man....
That's some horrible break-in advice. You'll never seat the rings this way and your motor will burn oil the rest of its life. All of our engine see 5-10psi of boost within the first 50 miles. They end up burning zero oil and running great.

-- Ed
Equilibrium Tuning is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2010, 01:26 PM   #16
renosubby
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 152576
Join Date: Jun 2007
Chapter/Region: SWIC
Location: Reno, NV
Vehicle:
2006 STI 10.8@ 129
www.Mayhemtuning.com

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Equilibrium Tuning View Post
That's some horrible break-in advice. You'll never seat the rings this way and your motor will burn oil the rest of its life. All of our engine see 5-10psi of boost within the first 50 miles. They end up burning zero oil and running great.

-- Ed
agreed mine saw boost after the first oil change. I was anal and changed it after 20 miles.
renosubby is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2010, 01:39 PM   #17
Prevent
*** Banned ***
 
Member#: 149114
Join Date: May 2007
Location: I'm too mainstream
Default

Hundreds of lamborghini motors?

Let's not begin about how it's different since they're NA and we're FI. But Hundreds? IDK about that... the largest lamborghini shop i know of is Underground Racing and i dont even think they do hundreds of motors... maybe a couple a year.
Prevent is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-06-2010, 10:07 AM   #18
al82
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 177913
Join Date: Apr 2008
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: Miramar, FL
Vehicle:
2011 WRX STi PBP

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Equilibrium Tuning

That's some horrible break-in advice. You'll never seat the rings this way and your motor will burn oil the rest of its life. All of our engine see 5-10psi of boost within the first 50 miles. They end up burning zero oil and running great.

-- Ed
Please read my post before commenting. I said everyone has their own way of breaking in their motor. It's been 2000 miles on my motor and oil level has been consistent. Thanks so much for your concern.
al82 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-06-2010, 10:14 AM   #19
al82
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 177913
Join Date: Apr 2008
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: Miramar, FL
Vehicle:
2011 WRX STi PBP

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Prevent
Hundreds of lamborghini motors?

Let's not begin about how it's different since they're NA and we're FI. But Hundreds? IDK about that... the largest lamborghini shop i know of is Underground Racing and i dont even think they do hundreds of motors... maybe a couple a year.
Lol don't you think hundreds over a time period? It might be the largest shop but not the best, but thanks for showing some interest.
al82 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-06-2010, 02:22 PM   #20
Equilibrium Tuning
NASIOC Vendor
 
Member#: 26933
Join Date: Oct 2002
Chapter/Region: BAIC
Location: Fairfield, CA
Vehicle:
2006 STI
CGM

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by al82 View Post
Please read my post before commenting. I said everyone has their own way of breaking in their motor. It's been 2000 miles on my motor and oil level has been consistent. Thanks so much for your concern.
I read your post and responded accordingly. The concept of the "easy" break-in is very much antiquated and people need to understand that. With modern engines, there is absolutely no good reason to do this type of break-in.

Thanks
-- Ed
Equilibrium Tuning is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-06-2010, 06:52 PM   #21
STiSpecC
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 133921
Join Date: Dec 2006
Default Break In Secrets--How To Break In New Motorcycle and Car Engines For More Power

Quote:
Originally Posted by Equilibrium Tuning View Post
I read your post and responded accordingly. The concept of the "easy" break-in is very much antiquated and people need to understand that. With modern engines, there is absolutely no good reason to do this type of break-in.

Thanks
-- Ed
+1

AW Sti, here's a good article in regards to engine break in.


Break In Secrets--How To Break In New Motorcycle and Car Engines For More Power


http://www.mototuneusa.com/break_in_secrets.htm
STiSpecC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-06-2010, 08:28 PM   #22
al82
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 177913
Join Date: Apr 2008
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: Miramar, FL
Vehicle:
2011 WRX STi PBP

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Equilibrium Tuning

I read your post and responded accordingly. The concept of the "easy" break-in is very much antiquated and people need to understand that. With modern engines, there is absolutely no good reason to do this type of break-in.

Thanks
-- Ed
Ok cool, there is a shop here in Orlando that built my engine told me to give it 200 miles of soft driving then after that give it some load....yea my shop here in Miami are guys that have been more into German and Italian cars so I guess there kinda old school. So I got a question for you then Ed....

My block is an 09 Sti block with forged internals, clevite and acl race bearings, arp head studs and case bolts and a fresh pair of 06 wrx heads. What type of boost would my engine be able to handle (max).

Fmic, tbe, 750cc injectors and a dom3.

Thanks Ed
al82 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-06-2010, 09:01 PM   #23
Prevent
*** Banned ***
 
Member#: 149114
Join Date: May 2007
Location: I'm too mainstream
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by al82 View Post
Ok cool, there is a shop here in Orlando that built my engine told me to give it 200 miles of soft driving then after that give it some load....yea my shop here in Miami are guys that have been more into German and Italian cars so I guess there kinda old school. So I got a question for you then Ed....

My block is an 09 Sti block with forged internals, clevite and acl race bearings, arp head studs and case bolts and a fresh pair of 06 wrx heads. What type of boost would my engine be able to handle (max).

Fmic, tbe, 750cc injectors and a dom3.

Thanks Ed

to anyone who reads.

Please ignore any post by al82, he clearly doesn't know much but his "machine shop' guys are the bestest ever. they build lamborghini motors.

I heard you should break in your motor for 10k miles, shifting at 800rpms.
Prevent is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-06-2010, 11:45 PM   #24
sidewayz
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 5810
Join Date: Apr 2001
Chapter/Region: Tri-State
Location: Easton PA
Vehicle:
2001 S366 2.5RS

Default

Do any of you knuckleheads realize the actual size difference with 100mm pistons?? That's .5mm different. Whip out your wieners and measure that up. It's minute. Like slowboy said you won't have issues with that. If you do then your tune sucks.

Easy break in? Long mileage break-in ??? WTF. We run ALL of our motors hard right from the start seeing 10-15 psi with in the first 20miles. Never had an issue.


Internet bench racers. Ugh
sidewayz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-07-2010, 12:38 AM   #25
Prevent
*** Banned ***
 
Member#: 149114
Join Date: May 2007
Location: I'm too mainstream
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sidewayz View Post
Do any of you knuckleheads realize the actual size difference with 100mm pistons?? That's .5mm different. Whip out your wieners and measure that up. It's minute. Like slowboy said you won't have issues with that. If you do then your tune sucks.

Easy break in? Long mileage break-in ??? WTF. We run ALL of our motors hard right from the start seeing 10-15 psi with in the first 20miles. Never had an issue.


Internet bench racers. Ugh

Will he be fine, sure but no one can say for sure.

.5mm is not minute on the stock sleeve.. granted its not .5mm in one direction, but overall.. sooo .25 in one direction...

It's still a good chunk of the stock sleeve.


thread of greatness

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...ghlight=oiling
Prevent is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
FS : CP Pistons (SC7421) $400.00 STi rods $200.00 Complete WRX manifold $100.00 Kincaid Racing Engine/Power/Exhaust 6 10-20-2010 04:44 AM
Wiseco 100mm piston ring set kellygnsd Engine/Power/Exhaust 4 02-06-2008 09:28 PM
Quench height w/ 100mm pistons. PeteDucati Built Motor Discussion 10 09-21-2006 10:35 PM
Mahle EJ257 100mm pistons sjl1614 Engine/Power/Exhaust 14 09-05-2006 04:52 PM
Milsport STi8 Hood Scoop for GC's, Pauter Rods, Wiseco 100mm Pistons 99RSTurbo Private 'For Sale' Classifieds 18 11-07-2005 01:41 AM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:30 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Powered by Searchlight © 2014 Axivo Inc.
Copyright ©1999 - 2014, North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club, Inc.