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Old 10-20-2010, 01:23 AM   #1
UP2MTNS
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Default Little help with selecting aftermarket oil cooler

Next project for the rally car is an aftermarket oil cooler, but looking at what's available, should I be looking at any particular size?


application is a rally car, so not super high HP, but it is a dedicated race car and the engine sees sustained high temps, abuse, etc.

Engine Specs:
Outfront motorsports 2.5L closed deck block w/mahle pistons and ej205 heads (ported) and JUN 256 race cams. compression is around 9:1 and currently tuned on ~94 but going to E85 for 2011 probably.
JDM 11mm upgraded oil pump
Blouch td-05 20G turbo, stock oil lines (but looking to get a SS braided oil line soon)

Planning on a typical sandwich plate with -10AN fittings/hoses.


can you actually go 'too big'? (ie a 30 row oil cooler?)


Also....like the ebay top mount....does the extra $$ for a brand name really matter, or are they all the same (honestly, they all look the same).

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Al-Tr...Q5fAccessories



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Last edited by UP2MTNS; 10-20-2010 at 01:28 AM.
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Old 10-20-2010, 07:09 AM   #2
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Setrab 19 row here with -10AN fittings from anplumbing.com

Mocal thermostat sandwich plate from racepartswholesale.com

I think the 19 row is more than enough. 25 row might be over kill.

Fairly large. Fills up the whole rad support area top to bottom.

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Old 10-20-2010, 10:22 AM   #3
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^ I concur
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Old 10-20-2010, 11:01 AM   #4
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i would like a 34row one for track use.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/EAR-83410ERL/
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Old 10-20-2010, 04:59 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UP2MTNS View Post
Next project for the rally car is an aftermarket oil cooler, but looking at what's available, should I be looking at any particular size?

application is a rally car, so not super high HP, but it is a dedicated race car and the engine sees sustained high temps, abuse, etc.
Try giving the guys at BAT a call. I just talked to them last week about cooler sizing for my CTS-V, and have dealt with them before for my Mustang, too. They have quite a bit of experience - not sure how much they've dealt with rally cars specifically, but can't hurt to call.

I could be talking out of my ass here, but I would think a rally car would benefit from a larger cooler than a track car. My reasoning (strictly based on watching WRC on TV ) is that rally cars do a lot more high RPM, high load work at lower speeds than a track car. While there are slow corners at pretty much every road course, overall a decently prepped track car will be averaging 85-90mph, if not more. I would think a rally car will have an average speed quite a bit lower. Lower speed = less airflow through cooler, therefore a larger cooler might be in order.

Quote:
Originally Posted by UP2MTNS View Post
can you actually go 'too big'? (ie a 30 row oil cooler?)
If the cooler circuit is thermostatically controlled, then no, I guess you really can't go too big. But if you can correctly size the cooler then going bigger is obviously unnecessary and just means you're spending more money and hanging a larger, heavier cooler on the nose of the car with more fluid in it (also heavier) for no good reason.

Quote:
Originally Posted by UP2MTNS View Post
Also....like the ebay top mount....does the extra $$ for a brand name really matter, or are they all the same (honestly, they all look the same).
The one thing that the established manufacturers have going for them is quality control. For example, Mocal advertises that all of their coolers are tested to 170psi, and a small sample are tested even higher. I'd be surprised if CXRacing is doing that sort of testing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FuJi K View Post
i would like a 34row one for track use.
Why so big? Seems like gross overkill.

Pat Olsen
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Old 10-21-2010, 12:19 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Olsen View Post

I could be talking out of my ass here, but I would think a rally car would benefit from a larger cooler than a track car. My reasoning (strictly based on watching WRC on TV ) is that rally cars do a lot more high RPM, high load work at lower speeds than a track car. While there are slow corners at pretty much every road course, overall a decently prepped track car will be averaging 85-90mph, if not more. I would think a rally car will have an average speed quite a bit lower. Lower speed = less airflow through cooler, therefore a larger cooler might be in order.
Thanks for the link

yes, plenty of hard stages at less than 50mph...also, a lot of waiting around in the hot sun w/the engine running. I was looking at one of these sandwich plates, which restricts flow at lower temps:

http://www.pegasusautoracing.com/pro...p?Product=1231

but if that is a 1/2NPT thread, that's NOT a -10AN fitting, right? its a little bit narrower? (-8AN?) I realize I can get an NPT/AN adapter, but if that's the main restriction, what's the point? (someone please correct me if I'm wrong)

The whole thing that's bugging me right now is it seems if I remove the stock 'oil cooler' then I need to get some kind of adapter to take up the space, eh?

I'm also considering just relocating the whole thing....since I don't have an AC compressor, it'd be cool to just get a custom bracket and mount it right there up front. easy access (I change my filter after every event).

http://www.frsport.com/Greddy-124011...t_p_12814.html
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Old 10-21-2010, 02:24 AM   #7
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This is relevant to my interests. One of my projects for the winter is getting an oil cooler into my roadrally car as I'm seeing 275F oil temps
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Old 10-21-2010, 03:38 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by williaty View Post
This is relevant to my interests. One of my projects for the winter is getting an oil cooler into my roadrally car as I'm seeing 275F oil temps


what's your water temp doing? I need to install an oil temp gauge too....
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Old 10-21-2010, 10:52 AM   #9
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This has pretty much all been addressed in previous oil cooler threads in this forum, like this one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by UP2MTNS View Post
I was looking at one of these sandwich plates, which restricts flow at lower temps...
That sort of thing is what I was referring to when I mentioned having the cooler circuit thermostatically controlled. However, I wouldn't use that one you linked. The Mocal thermostatic sandwich plate that alcoolaid mentioned is one very good option - you can pick one up from the BAT guys, or other vendors (racerpartswholesale.com that alcoolaid used has slightly better pricing than BAT). Basically, you're looking for the SP1T type, which is a sandwich adapter with an oilstat (oil thermostat) built-in. Simplifies your plumbing and allows you to buy fewer hose ends and fittings.

Quote:
Originally Posted by UP2MTNS View Post
http://www.pegasusautoracing.com/pro...p?Product=1231

but if that is a 1/2NPT thread, that's NOT a -10AN fitting, right? its a little bit narrower? (-8AN?) I realize I can get an NPT/AN adapter, but if that's the main restriction, what's the point? (someone please correct me if I'm wrong)
Actually, that one you linked from Pegasus Racing is only 3/8" NPT, which is definitely a restriction. The 1/2" NPT (or 1/2" BSP, which is what the Mocal adapter uses) to -10AN fittings are a straight shot through - I have a few of them sitting at home right now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by UP2MTNS View Post
The whole thing that's bugging me right now is it seems if I remove the stock 'oil cooler' then I need to get some kind of adapter to take up the space, eh?
You have a couple of options. If you remove the factory oil cooler, you just need to source the nipple that screws into the block on a N/A EJ that did not have the factory cooler - Subaru PN 15018AA050 (from the thread linked above).

Another option is to keep the factory oil cooler and use a regular (non thermostatic) sandwich adapter, which is of course less expensive than a thermostatic adapter. The factory oil cooler will help warm up the oil when the engine is cold, and once the engine is warmed up, it'll just help the external oil cooler cool the oil.

Quote:
Originally Posted by UP2MTNS View Post
I'm also considering just relocating the whole thing....since I don't have an AC compressor, it'd be cool to just get a custom bracket and mount it right there up front. easy access (I change my filter after every event).

http://www.frsport.com/Greddy-124011...t_p_12814.html
That's a pretty slick setup. Not sure I would mount it up by the AC compressor, as that seems a somewhat awkward/potentially messy location when it comes time to drain/replace the filter, but that's up to you.

Pat
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Old 10-21-2010, 10:58 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UP2MTNS View Post
what's your water temp doing? I need to install an oil temp gauge too....
Water temp NEVER gets above 190F if the car is moving. Typically, it's in the lower 180s, measured at the crossover pipe. Cruising at 55mph, the oil will be ~30F hotter than the water. On the freeway at 70mph, the oil will be ~50F hotter than the water, and when flogging it, the oil will be 80-100F hotter than the water.

I think it's the fact that the NAs have absolutely no oil cooling of any kind other than heat loss out the oil pan.
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Old 10-21-2010, 08:51 PM   #11
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I would not go to big with the core, especially when you mount it in a high airflow area.
I had a 16 row Mocal with Thermostatic adapter fitted and struggled to reach 90 degrees celcius, which is to low for the oil to burn off condensation.

On a 11 row one now, without the factory H/Ex and seeing 95/100 on a very spirited drive.
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Old 10-22-2010, 01:39 AM   #12
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Dutch, thx for the tip.

Patrick O....thanks as well!
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Old 10-22-2010, 03:40 AM   #13
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I've been using TRU-Cool, very reasonably priced. They range from $33 - $80 depending on size 12, 24, 36, and 48 row. It has built in mounting flange for ease of install. I have a 48 row I'm not using any more I had mounted under the hood scoop which had no issues but now I went smaller since I changed the mounting location because it was too messy if I changed a line. Size: 11" x 11" x 1-1/2", pm me if you could use that one. Everything was purchased through Racerpartswholesale.com. Otherwise red text are links:

Quote:
New anti-clog design keeps maximum air flow through cooler at all times. Lightweight aluminum alloy is vibration proof. All coolers come with a built-in bracket and a 1/2" NPT fitting. High-tech coolers are so efficient and durable, major NASCAR® teams use them.
TRU_Cool_Oil_Coolers


I also used Accusump Adapter Sandwich Plates- 20mm x 1.5 thread and 2-1/2" or 3-1/8" O-ring:





I used a couple of Aeroquip Socketless 90 Degree Elbow Fitting for ease of install.




Btw because the lines are near the header I added fire resistant high temp heat sleeves to the lines I got from Hoseman.com For Hoseman you have to call them to order. The sleeves are constructed with some type of fiber (looks like fiberglass) with an orange coating on them. Just let them know the diameter of the hose you're covering and the lengths.

Last edited by methaddict; 10-22-2010 at 04:09 AM.
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Old 10-22-2010, 03:56 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Olsen View Post


That's a pretty slick setup. Not sure I would mount it up by the AC compressor, as that seems a somewhat awkward/potentially messy location when it comes time to drain/replace the filter, but that's up to you.

Pat
I was considering the same thing (the messy part), but I can drop out the oil filter in my truck (which is about the same height as the engine, but quite a bit above the oil pan and doesn't have the entire short block valve train sitting above it) w/o spilling a drop.

I know the suby oil filter is always a mess to change, but if I raised it higher and away from the short block, would it really be AS messy? Maybe just wishful thinking...but I don't know where else I'd realistically relocate it to.
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Old 10-22-2010, 04:26 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dutch Scooby lover View Post
I would not go to big with the core, especially when you mount it in a high airflow area.
I had a 16 row Mocal with Thermostatic adapter fitted and struggled to reach 90 degrees celcius, which is to low for the oil to burn off condensation.

On a 11 row one now, without the factory H/Ex and seeing 95/100 on a very spirited drive.
Good point here. I drive my car on the street a lot and even cruising on the highway the oil gets too cool. The mocal thermostat can't bypass 100% of the oil from the oil cooler.

To solve this I cover 3/4 of the oil cooler with a piece of aluminum until I hit the track.
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Old 10-22-2010, 11:13 AM   #16
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I am running both a remote oil filter, and a thermostatic adapter.
The remote filter kit goes from the stock oilfilter location towards the front of the car, and there I have fitted the thermostatic take off plate.

From there a short (2x 60cm) hose goes to the oilcooler itself, which is situated behind the front grill, in front of my FMIC.

@ Alcoolaid
I think the problem of low oil temps is indeed related to the adapter not bypassing 100%, but alos the core being to large/getting to much cold air.
Even if the plate blocks 90% of the oil going to the cooler the 10% that gets cooled is getting cooled to much.
I also had to cover the old core, not only on track, but in the winter as well.
That was with the factory H/E in place, so I decided to go smaller on the core,and removing the stock H/E.
Both to get a higher oil temperature, and keep coolant temperatures lower.
Only drawback is a slightly longer warm up time on the oil, but with the forged pistons I am running I tend to warm up the car for longer then when I had the stock engine in there anyway.

Last edited by Dutch Scooby lover; 10-22-2010 at 11:19 AM. Reason: added last paragraph.
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Old 10-22-2010, 11:22 AM   #17
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I run a Mocal thermostatic plate, and Setrab 26 row oil cooler and it seems to work very well. I can vouch for the quality of the setrab kits, get your lines custom made if poss.

Also in your first post you mentioned a top mount cooler. Unless your rally car is running a drysump, i wouldn't advise fitting top mount as once the pump stops oil the oil will drain out the line and the core back to sump.

This means when the engine is started it will run dry until the oil has filled up the lines and the cooler again.
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Old 10-22-2010, 11:46 AM   #18
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I always thought that as well, but lots of people do not think so, and have converted me as well.
They all said ,that because the oil lines form a closed system the oil does not drain out.

I have verified myself this as well, as my first oil cooler was mounted straight up.
Another guy had a top mount, and we both had immidiate oil pressure on start up, so the draining either goed very slow,or not at al.
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Old 10-22-2010, 12:27 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by methaddict View Post
I assume you actually used a Canton universal oil cooler sandwich adapter? The Accusump one only has 1 port on it, which would make it kind of hard to have a supply to and return from the cooler.

Pat
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Old 10-22-2010, 12:41 PM   #20
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I called these guys up. Very helpfull and really nice quality. I just built the shroud and everything else was included.
http://www.batinc.net/mocal-central.htm



Last edited by Murphdog; 10-22-2010 at 01:22 PM.
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Old 10-22-2010, 01:45 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alcoolaid View Post
Setrab 19 row here with -10AN fittings from anplumbing.com

Mocal thermostat sandwich plate from racepartswholesale.com

I think the 19 row is more than enough. 25 row might be over kill.

Fairly large. Fills up the whole rad support area top to bottom.


Hah

I have the exact same core with the same fittings from the same retailer, same sandwich plate from the same retailer, and it's installed in the exact same location.

http://www.thesuicidaleggroll.com/ho...oil_cooler.jpg
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Old 10-22-2010, 02:12 PM   #22
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My old setup.


Core was hanging from those 2 allen head bolts right in front, near the left headlight, filling the entire grille area.

Looked good, work good, just a shame one of the hoses wore through (new engine time)
At least I have made an upgrade with the engine LOL.
New cooler is hanging right smack dab in the middle of the metal plate between the two headlights.
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