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Old 06-23-2002, 06:41 PM   #1
FLUBYUx2
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Default USDM wrx swap+ AEM EMS into GC8 best option?

before you even say "search", just know that i spent the last 2 hours reading this,

Things to figure out before picking parts for your turbo project

http://www.i-club.com/forums/showth...threadid=115053

this,
Torque vs transmission life
http://www.i-club.com/forums/showth...threadid=113444

this,
WRX Piping on GC8
http://www.i-club.com/forums/showth...threadid=197549

and these,
Engine Swap info
http://www.i-club.com/forums/showth...threadid=147895
http://www.i-club.com/forums/showth...threadid=179534
http://www.i-club.com/forums/showth...threadid=146185
http://www.i-club.com/forums/showth...threadid=146984
http://www.i-club.com/forums/showth...&threadid=85223
http://www.i-club.com/forums/showth...&threadid=96554

from all this, i understand that a built 2.5 will quickly destroy the stock tranny during any other use than "granny shifting" and general babying. an upgraded clutch will further compound this "ob-STA-cle in my path" (Circa O brother where art thou)

i cant put a Factory turbo motor into my GC8 impreza RS w/o the Legacy X-member and 20mm spacer

installing a Jspec EJ__ will require extensive amounts of time simly splicing the 2 wire harnesses.

certain older EJ engines have certain down falls (ie; open deck, short skirt pistons, toothpick-like rods, rod ratios that cant be revved above 6K, etc)

Jspec motors w/ associated ECU's require Premium pump gas. (DUH, if you have a turbo/SC'd vehicle, you should be running this stuff... JDM or not)

my impression?

well, i cant have the tire shredding torque of the built 2.5, cuz the tranny wont hold up. besides, if i wanted that much torque, id get a V8.

can i consider the EJ22 superceded by the more advanced EJ20? afterall, there is more support for the 2.0 as it is more widely used, and still used. the 2.2 used to be the hot ticket, till the 2.0 came along.

i cant do this swap unless i have a Xmember that will clear the turbo up pipe. but, what if i cut the pipe off at the manifold, where it bolts to the motor, weld up a CUSTOM up-pipe using weld els, and plumb it into its original destination, and avoid the whole "rare Legacy turbo crossmember" dilemma.

if i use the USDM wrx harness and ECU, then i wont have to splice the harness at ALL, right? its already left hand drive, and is being mated to its original motor w/ all the original sensors. and SINCE im using this 2002 Subaru WRX EJ20 ECU, then cant i yank it out, and install the AEM EMS for exponential tunability as compared to the AFC, FMU, etc? and i wont fall into that piggy-back hell that so many people have fallen into (VPC, AFC, GCC, TT, EBC...scary huh?)
Quote:
Subaru
Impreza WRX............2002...........30-1810
pulled directly from www.AEMpower.com, im not sure if its been released yet, but, the 2G DSM has already been released, and the 1G DSM is coming very very soon. i dont see why the GD wont be released soon, if not already.

as far as i can tell, the GD EJ20 should bolt right into my GC8, and only encounter up pipe/x-member fitment problems. this should be alleviated with a home built up pipe (fabricated by me). and the 2.5 tranny should bolt up, and hold up to a 350hp EJ20 right? even with a heavy duty clutch/light flywheel, right?

what have i missed?

thanks
chris
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Old 06-23-2002, 09:10 PM   #2
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Here's the answer to your problems:

http://www.imprezars.com/chalak.htm

Kinda spendy, but it's a sycho'd gearset for the Impreza that's "rated for 450hp, or approx 370-405 ft/lbs of torque." It will shift esily since it's sychro'd, and it should hold enough power to make you happy. Now you can have a powerful, torquey 2.5L engine without worrying about the tranny grenading on you.
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Old 06-23-2002, 09:50 PM   #3
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damn, thats a great improvement. dogboxs suck for street use, but can hold power. this is awesome, but damn expensive. still cheaper than a new tranny.
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Old 06-23-2002, 09:54 PM   #4
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When I was doing my research on turboing my car, I was also at a wall with the transmission. I did not want a dog box for the street.
When I saw Larry Ganz advertising these (the synchro gearset) on a group buy, I was curious to see if when people put them in there were any issues.
I haven't seen anything bad said about these things. And one of our local tuners is talking them up big time.
When my time comes to turbo (2 years. Sigh.), these are the gears I will be getting.


TTFN
Todd
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Old 06-24-2002, 04:55 PM   #5
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Are there any documented sources of the complete swap or major points of it?
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Old 06-24-2002, 07:05 PM   #6
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Sometimes I wonder Why i give out all this info. Oh Well


1. The USDM gd motor will fit in the any GC8
2. Check the honda forums. They are not too pleased with the AEM. I put the link in my car and other conversions.
3. You can use a WRX crossmember.
4. 2.5 tranny is pleanty strong. it's the milage you need to worry about. I wouldn't use any 2.5 tranny after 150k.
5. Yes stock wrx ecu and yes you'll have to splice into the old harness.
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Old 06-24-2002, 10:50 PM   #7
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Just out of curiousity why go through the trouble to avoid putting in the x-member by building a custom up-pipe when you can simply remove 4 bolts and put in a new x-member?
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Old 06-24-2002, 11:02 PM   #8
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my guess is either, he is a great (knows a great) fabricator or that people still don't believe that the wrx crossmember will work.

Any other suggestions?
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Old 06-25-2002, 01:35 AM   #9
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im not a GREAT fabricator, but i can hold my own. just hand me a MIG welder w/ CO2 gas, and i can lay a bead w/ the right crown and deep penetration, and no craters. forehand, backhand, up, down...upSIDE down. it takes a little more caution when welding thinner materials like thin sheet metal, but, i would use cast steel weld els, like corkey bell talks about.

anyhow, i just was under the impression that the GD x-member would NOT fix cuz thats all i read when searching in the turbo swap forums, and that the legacy xmember was used anytime a turbo was installed in a GC8. but hell, if the GD x-member will work in a GC8, then i dont have anything to worry about.

btw, i dont think its JUST 4 bolts to swap the X-member. arent there like sway bar mounts, and steering boxes, and steering racks and what not, mounted to the x-member? at least thats what i thought was mounted to the GC8 memeber, and what the guy had to remove in order to swap in the legacy member, on Nothingserious.net (i think that was the site) not to mention, i heard about people not being able to use the stock sway bar w/ the "new" legacy member.

i dont really wanna go to a honda forum to read about why they dont like the AEM... can you just relay the info, or give us the jist of it?

i have a friend who got the beta version of the AEM unit, for his Turbo H22 swap in his 98 accord, and had no basemap. its not impossible to use, its just SOOOOO comprehensive that its complicated. on his software version, he had 8 different options, since the computer was supposed to be used for the prelude, civic, integra, accord, etc. so he had to find out WHICH 'switches' controlled his prelude motor, and which switches controlled the parts on his accord chassis.

anyhow, the motor should bolt right up to the tranny, and not need custom anything right? like special halfshafts or any of that mumbo jumbo?

Christoph, thanks for the info. that pretty much simplifies it for me. do you know which parts of the harness needed to be spliced?

thanks
chris
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Old 06-25-2002, 04:30 AM   #10
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what i've learned from this board is to ask someone whose TRIED IT and then go from there... never listen to word of mouth,,, i'm not saying anyone here but you can run into problems with such a huge project... i wouldn't start guessing... its not worth it...

i'm still wondering why people are spending so much.. just get the EJ22t block.. i've been running it and stock everything (including tranny) for about 50ks now... its strong... and i run 13.4s all day long up here( 3500 ft) . (vipers here run 13's too)
well modded WRXs can't keep up... so... don't go to so much hassle... btw i still use the RS ECU... no pings no dets and no CEL...
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Old 06-25-2002, 11:22 AM   #11
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HOK, got some details? did you just swap in the 2.2 short block and use the 2.5 heads? what are you using along the lines of turbo and piping? how did you fit all that good stuff in?

my buddy eric (imprezinator) apparantly is using a new 2.0 short block w/ his 2.5 heads, but im not sure what hes running as far as his turbo and piping, and how he fit it in there.

theres just SO many options to use, and its hard finding out which is the best set up for my needs. id like something in the mid 13s, stock weight, no worries about trannys blowing up, ease of daily driving. is this too much to ask?

thanks
chris
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Old 06-25-2002, 11:49 AM   #12
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agreed the 22 block is stronger and cheaper. People do want something that is proven and works. However, I find that consumers want assurance and reliability in a product.
Since, the ej20 is a proven "quality" engine which, comes stock on us wrx's, people believe that it is...better/the norm. People feel more comfortable using those products which are more accepted.
I am not trying to sway people from the ej22. I only do ej20 conversions because I live in California. The conversions I do are completly CARB/smog legal. You cannot BUY that kinda of customer confidence in just any motor swap

FYI One of the conversions (the only one to go to the track)runs 13.4's with a FP turbo and avcr. That's it.

Also, The AEM has been know to change maps at any instance for not reason at all. YIKES. I believe that AEM is still working on this too. The link is a proven unit OVERSEAS. The us version did have a few minor glitches, which have been worked out already.

The motor bolts right up. NO special fab work.
I do know all the wires that need to be soldered. Each car is a little different though. Your best bet is to get the wiring diagrams for BOTH cars.

I do earn my money by doing special little projects like conversions. So it is difficult for me to give people too much info. I hope you understand.
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Old 06-25-2002, 12:32 PM   #13
FLUBYUx2
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Christoph, thanks for the info.

now that i know i can run deep into the 13s w/ just about any engine combo (20, 22, 25t)...let me ask you this:

which one is more durable and will be more tolerant of general racing?

keep in mind that i dont need to be emissions legal in any way...well except passing the visual test. so dont let that be a factor.

thanks
chris
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Old 06-25-2002, 12:45 PM   #14
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well a mid 13 car at sea level is different at this altitude... they mostly run low 14s here... but again with the EJ20 swap its just that that is too much work for that kind of power... the only reason that the EJ20 is proven and customer approved and all that .. is because thats the only thing that come out of japan as a performance product for subaru... and the only reason this is because the laws regarding FIA rally and taxes. anything over 2.0 is incrementally leeched by the government... thus the large use of turbos... even the trucks and large mving vans are turbos...

but for the north american its best to keep the ej25 stuff in and slap the EJ22T for healthy lowered compression and its so cheap.. we love torque... so... its all good... but to me anything over 350,400 torqueless or torqueful is the same... (loving it ) plus all this tranny talk is kinda .... not really useful... because the torqueless Ej20 will break tannies with low 13s and high 12s so... really a non issue... i beleive its the awd and DRAGGIN that breaks trannys not the torque (directly) hear of stock RS breaking trannys at drags all the time... every awd i know except for the friggin crazily over built GTR breaks trannys for draging.. so..

but my car is JC sports pipes small but sized reasonably well T28 and WRX IC.... 440 injectors w/ AFc to keep things nice and rich. and a really good boost controller... i also have a wandering eye now because of the friggin EGT guage... i never stay on WOT with eyeing it.. i found that the lower compression is very well suited for the application without losing tooo much off boost torque for a daily driver AC tools in the back plus GF and full tank of gas... its fast enough... i've always wanted to get a link or tec or something... but the car just messes with my mind.. because i've learned not to fix something that ain't broke,., so i never got the aftermarket ECU. its really not a fancy car... but it runs with the best of em... i suggest this to everyone that wants to keep things simple... but i love hearing about the big builds.. fluby just sounded like he wanted a realiable way...

also i don't know if this has anything to do with anything... but i got all my work done by a subaru chief mechanic that knows his stuff... i check everything with me newbie knowledge and its was done right... so... just a recommendation... hope it helps.. but now that i'm in hong kong... i;m looking to get me some STI HEADS!!!! yummy...
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Old 06-25-2002, 02:32 PM   #15
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Dont' care about emissions? tight on a budget? I'd probably go ej22.

which on is more tolerant in RACING? I have no idea. all I can, And everyone else can do is GUESS. Until you put both engines out there and run them into the ground...then you'll know.

I am an older guy. I use to have all the time in the world to wrench on this and that. I no longer can afford that luxury. Time is money now. It IS more economical for me to spend the upfront cash so i don't end up spending weeknights and weekends fixing stuff.

Do youself a favor and think LONG term.
How long are you gonna have this car?
How much time do you want to spend working on it?
How much money do you have to devote to get your project through to completion?

FYI: The complete swap takes me 40 hours to complete.
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Old 06-26-2002, 12:43 AM   #16
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thats my point the EJ22t swap is reliable and cheaper in the long run... the EJ20 is really expensive..

how much is 40 hours worth of work? whats your hrly charge. how much is the EJ20 long block, ecu harness and accessories..?
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Old 06-26-2002, 03:43 AM   #17
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so you think the ej22 is cheaper huh. what about resale? At least here and ONLY in CA. it would be much easier to resell the ej20 conversion. Also, what about time sourcing parts for broken pieces? Remember Time is Money.

I can flip a conversion INCLUDING EVRYTHING for 6.5k. Thats all parts and labor. That is what I charged for the very 1st one. Times and prices have changed...but not by much.
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Old 06-26-2002, 04:16 AM   #18
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HOK, I doubt that a EJ22T swap is cheaper unless you buy a whole LEgacy parts car from a wrecked car auction. Local salvage yard is VERY cheap, yet by the time I would be done getting it running it would cost nearly the same as my much better STi Ver 1 driveline. Which also came ultra complete, so I don't waste time finding bit A, or little part B.
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Old 06-26-2002, 05:09 AM   #19
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mmm i don't think you guys know what i i'm talking about... you just put in the EJ22T short block in thats it.. everything thing else is used off the old block... there are no little bits and parts... go to subaruparts.com it cost 1500... and prolly 10 hrs of labour... that 2000 bucks installed...
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Old 06-26-2002, 05:14 AM   #20
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btw i did the install... i don't think its cheaper... it is... also 6500... your telling me you can find a USD WRX NEW block, ECU harness, sensors all that? install it all for 6500? man... thats not bad...

but thats 227 hp right? when people want to start upgrading then it gets more expensive... conversion then... upgrade turbo and then chip... to get 300 hp... its expensive and a hassle.. but if 227 is all you want... then your conversion is a good bet... but people tend to tinker...
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Old 06-26-2002, 12:41 PM   #21
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we are going to own this car forever, till it rusts apart, gets stolen, smashed into, or what have you. thats how my dad is. he bought an 86 Trans Am brand new from the dealer, and we still have it. 138k miles later, its ALL original except for normal wear and tear parts, and the HO exhaust (sans muffler) which i installed. the only thing wrong w/ it is bad/old valve seals: it puffs blue smoke after being run, shut down, and restarted a few min later. that and a puff of smoke after you rev it. thats ALL.

my dad will be the primary driver of the soobie, so i know it will be in good hands. he can make stuff last. he babies the cars. i just want it to be able to put up w/ ME. for the occasional night at the strip, or around-town tom foolery. you know?

btw, my labor is free. im only 21, im virule. i can stay up late wrenching. and im creative, ingenuitive, and intuitive.

i run about 500' above sea level. im right by the lake here in ohio. by sandusky, and i race at norwalk raceway.

Eric (imprezinator) got me wondering. he apparantly just swapping in a turbo shortblock and kept his original RS equipment. i cant remember off hand if he bought the 2.0 or 2.2. either way, i should be able to get the 2.2. maybe i should do that. the only new parts ill have to buy are the short block, misc cleaners, new gaskets and bolts. and create a turbo kit.

2.5 heads on the 2.2 will yeild lower static compression than the 2.2 w/ its original heads, right? i want to believe that the 2.5 heads have larger chambers,a nd probably larger valves than the turbo 2.2.

ive never even SEEN a turbo legacy around, so that means ill have a helluva time finding a donor car, unless its via the internet. and then, there goes my whole bargaining tool. if its on the net, the guy PROBABLY knows what its worth, so no $ breaks there.

did i miss anything?

thanks
chris
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Old 06-26-2002, 01:34 PM   #22
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That's right I get ALL the stuff I need to do the SWAP and then charge 40 bucks and hour to put it in.

Also, the availabilty for upgrades on an ej20, is huge. Not that people will actually be doing those upgrades but it is nice to know that you have the option.

THIS is my labor of love. I have my own job as a EHS consultant. I get paid well. Cars are a hobby and then I get extra cash for my own toys/trips.

Like I said. if you have time to tinker then build your own motor. That's what i did with my 72 el camino when I was 19. I still have that bad boy Now I am 30, I do not have as much time to be working on it anymore.

I am just trying to give you younger guys food for thought.
Have fun
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Old 06-26-2002, 11:28 PM   #23
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Not converting this into a sales thread, but just an fyi.

Quote:
Hi All,

Still negotiating with the shop to break things up, but I think it'll look like this.

Engine with Harnesses and MAF Box - $5500 Cdn $3450 USD
Tranny, Drive Shaft, Rear Diff - $2500 Cdn $1570 USD
Axles, Hubs, Brakes, Struts - $1000 Cdn $625 USD

BTW: These must be sold as complete packages. Stay tuned, I'm just waiting for confirmation. Shipping charges are extra.

Thanks
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...ghlight=Engine

That should give you some idea of what it costs to get an engine swap done in a GC8 using USDM WRX parts. There are pictures of these items in too if you click on the thread above.

Enjoy.
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Old 06-26-2002, 11:42 PM   #24
FLUBYUx2
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yea, i had the link for that thread PM'd to me.

but im still trying to decide which route to go.

the more i hear about it, the better the 2.2 short block sounds to me.

btw, do you think an SDS efi system would be a good set up? i can get one for like $600, complete.

thanks
chris
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Old 06-27-2002, 12:59 AM   #25
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yo joeT thats about right.. thanks..

but this guy is saying that he can get all that NEW and install it for 6500... NEW!
if its true its pretty good.

yea i'm trying to keep my car forever but... running out of money :P
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