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Old 10-21-2010, 06:37 PM   #1
Jamnation862
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2004 WRX ej257 + E85
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Default Hybrid build E85 and 91 Questions

Hey guys. When I first blew my motor and turbo I got advice here that turned out to be very valuable and I figure I'll see what everyone thinks about this.

As we speak my brand spankin new ej257 w/ nitride crankshaft is being installed with the 2.0liter heads. I purchased a 12k mile td04 (Im on a budget) from a fellow Nasioc'er. Initially, I will be running just the Cobb stage 2 tune that I used on the previous 2 liter motor and the stock injectors and fuel pump until the car is broken in.

Once broken in however I intend to get a tune from Harvey over in Longmont and am aiming for E85. Ive been told that 850cc's are pretty standard for this setup but I have been told that I could go as low as about 650cc's because I am still on the stock turbo. I will most likely be getting a tune for e85 and a seperate one for 91 so I guess my question is what size injectors do you guys think? Cost is definitely an issue for me but I would like to get new injectors. DW sells 650s for 450-100 if i send them my injectors.....

Thanks for the input in advance.....
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Old 10-21-2010, 08:02 PM   #2
nairbmik
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650cc would be way too small. You gotta pay to play to do it right otherwise your motor will suffer.
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Old 10-22-2010, 12:58 PM   #3
the suicidal eggroll
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650 might work on the TD04, but it's really pushing it, and if you ever decided to upgrade your turbo you would need new injectors immediately. I would go 850 minimum just to be on the safe side.

850cc get me to about 14 psi on a 30R on E85 before topping out.
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Old 10-22-2010, 03:07 PM   #4
Nuke209
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650cc is enough for e85 on td04
LOL I was able to push it on the stock dark blue injectors on a 2006wrx on e85 stg2
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Old 10-22-2010, 03:14 PM   #5
Jamnation862
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Well a 30R is gonna be pushing quite a bit more air than a td04. My two issues here are 1) I want to be able to run 91 as well and 2) Budget.

For 91 on this setup, I wont need nearly the capacity of the 850s and have heard that the car will be pretty unhappy at idle if you use too little percentage of the injector capacity.

The difference between 850s and 650s is $100. I could justify getting 750s......
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Old 10-22-2010, 03:17 PM   #6
FlatironsTuning.com
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Roughly speaking, you will need a 30% larger injector to run E85 than you would on pump gas. Hence the 850's, etc.

A lot of people here that run E85 even go with 1000cc injectors to give them a little more headroom.

Can you run a smaller injector? Sure. But there is a greater likleyhood that you will run out of fuel (especially on E85), and that will limit how much power you can make, etc.

If you have any plans to put a bigger turbo on in the future, you may want to either go with a bigger injector. Otherwise, you will most likely have to switch them again.

Another option would be to just stick with your stock injectors and stock turbo and keep with a pump gas map for now. Then get your E85 tune done when you can put on the bigger turbo, injectors, intercooler, etc...

Good luck with your project.
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Old 10-22-2010, 03:47 PM   #7
the suicidal eggroll
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamnation862 View Post
For 91 on this setup, I wont need nearly the capacity of the 850s and have heard that the car will be pretty unhappy at idle if you use too little percentage of the injector capacity.
You heard wrong, 850s are fine and with a decent tune will idle like stock on gas.
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Old 10-22-2010, 04:04 PM   #8
Spike_916
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the suicidal eggroll View Post
650 might work on the TD04, but it's really pushing it, and if you ever decided to upgrade your turbo you would need new injectors immediately. I would go 850 minimum just to be on the safe side.

850cc get me to about 14 psi on a 30R on E85 before topping out.
Agreed, you typically would want to go a lot larger. It really depends on your potential end result, where you hang up the modding towel and are happy with the build. If you want to push the car to go faster in the future when you have more time and/or money, I would recommend going over 1000cc Injectors. They are electronically controlled, so based on your tune you can change the fuel flow based on your tune for 91 or E85 and/or 14psi compared to 22psi.

My 2006 STi will be running E85 and currently working with a shop out in California. We are doing a daily driven E85 Monstrous build (well attempt to daily drive) with an optional 91 octane map incase I am out in a non-friendly E85 area. We decided to go with 2200cc Injectors with a Twin Walbro 255lph fuel pump system. We are looking to reach power levels well over 600whp. It has a Fully Built Motor (blue printed, balanced, etc.) with Cosworth parts (Cams, Valves & Retainers, etc.), 100mm CP Race Pistons, Darton Sleeved, Rotated Cosworth Intake Manifold, ATP Rotated Twinscrolled GT3582R, Large Crawford FMIC, etc. We went large since in the future I plan to upgrade the turbo. My theory is it’s always good to have too much than not enough.

My point is it all boils down to your desired build and power. If just want a good E85 boost/power gain, then the 850cc Injectors like the suicidal eggroll (great name ) suggested. If you plan to make it into a monster, then spend the extra money up front for a part that you won’t have to replace in a year when you get the modding itch.

Personally I would recommend an Ethanol Reader (Roughly $300 I believe). It processes the fuel in your tank to display the E85 percentage. Install is as easy as connecting power and adding it into your fuel lines. The best unit I found has a flow rating at 200lph which could bottleneck your 255lph Walbro, which an easy fix is installing it on the return line. Let me know if you are interested, I can locate the link to the unit again.

Reason I recommend the reader is because in a perfect world, it should be 85% Ethanol and 15% Gas. Certain regional areas and/or states have a winter E85 mix which is roughly 70% Ethanol and 30% Gas. That is because E85 has a hard time starting in weather around 30 degrees. Keep in mind there is also no quality control on E85. Which could be the difference of being tuned on a good batch of E85 at 83-85% Ethanol. Then the next time you feel up you get a batch of Winter Blend without knowing (They aren't required to label) or 78-80% Ethanol mix. This could be the difference of a healthy motor, damaged motor, and/or another blown motor.

Last edited by Spike_916; 10-22-2010 at 05:17 PM.
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Old 10-22-2010, 04:17 PM   #9
Spike_916
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the suicidal eggroll View Post
You heard wrong, 850s are fine and with a decent tune will idle like stock on gas.
AGREE! Everything comes down to the tuner.
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