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Old 07-03-2006, 08:09 AM   #1
mokujin22
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Default Tony's 2.5 Hybrid Swap Thread

Hey all,

I know it's been done a hundred times before, but I'm going to start a thread running through by 2.5 SB/2.0 head hybrid swap into my '02 bugeye WRX. Here, I'll post some pics of my progress, ask questions when they arise and answer any questions anyone has.

Brief background: My car is an '02 that I got in May of 2001. I've accumulated 83,176 miles on it, the last 20K or so with a VF30, pink injectors and AP off-the-shelf mapping. I've autocrossed my car for two seasons now and been out to Summit Point Friday at the Track a couple of times.

I've had some persistant CELs and recently sent my oil to Blackstone for analysis. The guy told me that "frankly, I'm shocked your car is still running." (50x normal lead and 30x normal iron content) Of course, at this point, I have 1/2 of a car payment left on my loan.

Rather than throwing in the towel, trading in the car and starting over with another money pit...er, I mean tuner car, I've decided to go with a Stage One SB from Gruppe-S, 264 cams and a TD06-20G. I have turned wrenches before (almost everything on my car), but am i by no means a pro. I have a daily driver, so my car will be parked over at my parent's house for the next couple of weeks.

Major drivetrain components:
-Gruppe-S Stage 1 SB with forged pistons
-Factory 2.0L heads with Helix 264 cams and springs
-Modded blue injectors
-Wallbro FP (installed)
-Perrin turbo-back (installed)
-DB TD06-20G
-Perrin Big MAF (installed after breakin at tuners)
-Cobb AP Protune
-PDX 500

My goal is to make it to the WDCR Subaru Challenge in September with 380-400 WHP and near stock spool. This includes break-in and tuning, with a bit of time to make sure everything is running ok before the event.





I'm sure I'll have plenty of questions, so thanks a bunch in advance.

Tony

CLIFF NOTES: Bearings on the stock 2.0 are gone. Will swap in 2.5 SB with 2.0 heads, 264 cams and swap out VF30 for TD06-20G. I've done more mundane wrench-turning, but may need a bit of help.
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Last edited by mokujin22; 07-03-2006 at 08:24 AM.
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Old 07-03-2006, 08:17 AM   #2
mokujin22
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Default July 2, 2006

Started last night at 9:30 PM (was in the neighborhood and had a few minutes). From 9:30 until 11:15 PM, got the following done:

-Removed hood
-Drained coolant
-Removed intake piping up to turbo pipe
-Removed battery
-Removed wiper fluid resevoir
-Removed I/C and pipes from turbo to T/B, Recirc valve

Took a few pics, but none after I was all done. Will post one after work.

I plan on hitting it hard after work today. Hopefully will remove belts, pumps, turbo, intake plenum and TGVs.

I plan on removing TGV dividers and butterlies while leaving the servos and rods. Need to go to Harbour Freight to pick up an air wrench and grinder.

Tony

Last edited by mokujin22; 08-27-2007 at 11:30 PM.
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Old 07-03-2006, 09:05 AM   #3
ejh25
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FYI you will need to drill the butterflies out. I dealt with this yesterday and it was a PITA. I needed a better bit. With a good drill bit and drill you should be able to get the butterflies out really quickly. I am trying to figure out how the rods come out now. I know I need to hit the sensor end with a rubber mallet but they wouldn't budge yesterday.

Good luck...if your interested in help I might be able to lend a hand (and I live in Bethesda).
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Old 07-03-2006, 09:41 AM   #4
mokujin22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ejh25
FYI you will need to drill the butterflies out. I dealt with this yesterday and it was a PITA. I needed a better bit. With a good drill bit and drill you should be able to get the butterflies out really quickly. I am trying to figure out how the rods come out now. I know I need to hit the sensor end with a rubber mallet but they wouldn't budge yesterday.

Good luck...if your interested in help I might be able to lend a hand (and I live in Bethesda).
Sweet! Thanks a bunch. I may take you up on that when things get a bit nuts (ie: heads) I remember you were planning a similar swap. Have you done it yet?

Tony
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Old 07-03-2006, 10:04 AM   #5
BadTrip
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Nice thread. Share the experience with us bro! And good luck!
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Old 07-03-2006, 10:04 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mokujin22
Sweet! Thanks a bunch. I may take you up on that when things get a bit nuts (ie: heads) I remember you were planning a similar swap. Have you done it yet?

Tony
I'm waiting on V8 cam sprockets from Japan and thats the last piece of the puzzle (hopefully). Andrew @ Gearboxtech has my heads at a machinist...everything is in except for a broken AVCS solenoid and the Sprockets (I went with V8 cams and a helix valvetrain). The Cosworth block is also sitting at Gearboxtech. I decided on the Hydra, Hydramist, and the Element Tuning GT52 turbo. Andrew will be taking care of the build and everything should be in by the end of the month (hopefully ).
Your setup sounds like a bunch of fun...what did you decide by way of turbo?
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Old 07-03-2006, 10:10 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ejh25
...what did you decide by way of turbo?

td06-20g
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Old 07-03-2006, 10:54 AM   #8
ejh25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by psyber_0ptix
td06-20g
Very cool...we'll have to compare cars shortly!
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Old 07-03-2006, 12:17 PM   #9
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Nice... a little journal. I have that going on my local site so I know how long things take me. Good luck!!
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Old 07-03-2006, 02:26 PM   #10
mokujin22
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thanks for all the replies, folks! i'm pretty siked to get out of here and over to my folks to start day 2.

Tony
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Old 07-03-2006, 05:36 PM   #11
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good luck with everything and keep us posted.
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Old 07-03-2006, 08:23 PM   #12
babyblue22681
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i have a similar set up as what you are doing. except for the cams. i just broke my motor in , ans it needs a tune. ( im running a cobb 2.5 now) (crower stg 3) ported and polished heads. and i'll tell you, you will NOT be dissapointed.
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Old 07-03-2006, 10:30 PM   #13
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Thats a big task for someone who hasn't done an engine pull before, you got guts I must tell ya that. A few things that crossed my mind:

1) what tranny are you putting that much hp to the ground with?

2) I guess trying to go for quick spool is the reason you have a top-mount, but how are you going to get that large of a turbo spooled up that fast?

3) No front mount with that much power is going to be interesting.
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Old 07-04-2006, 02:35 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E-Wrex
Thats a big task for someone who hasn't done an engine pull before, you got guts I must tell ya that. A few things that crossed my mind:

1) what tranny are you putting that much hp to the ground with?

2) I guess trying to go for quick spool is the reason you have a top-mount, but how are you going to get that large of a turbo spooled up that fast?

3) No front mount with that much power is going to be interesting.
He's running a TD06-20g which is a good size turbo but nothing too crazy. The MRT top mount on there should do just fine IMHO.
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Old 07-05-2006, 03:09 AM   #15
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ya got some balls men.goodluck on the built men
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Old 07-05-2006, 01:18 PM   #16
mokujin22
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30 mpg 2000 Neon...Hi!

Default Tree

Hey all,

Welp, was all excited to get cracking on the engine and came home to this:

BEFORE:



AFTER (6 hrs with 2 chainsaws):



Needless to say, didn't get much done car-wise on Monday afternoon.

Tony
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Old 07-05-2006, 01:26 PM   #17
mokujin22
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Default

Spirits broken, I dropped by my folks for a couple of hours yesterday. Got the following done:

-Put car on Blocks
-Drained Oil
-Dropped DP (god bless PB-Blaster)
-Removed Belts
-Slid water pump off to the side
-Removed throttle body and PCV pipes

Only had a couple of hours.

Blocking:



Before:



After:



Question:

-Can I remove the engine without discharging the A/C lines? (Can I simply slide the compressor to the side like the water pump?)
-Does the radiator need to come out?

Will put in a few hours after work.

Tony
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Old 07-05-2006, 01:29 PM   #18
mokujin22
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30 mpg 2000 Neon...Hi!

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by E-Wrex
Thats a big task for someone who hasn't done an engine pull before, you got guts I must tell ya that. A few things that crossed my mind:

1) what tranny are you putting that much hp to the ground with?

2) I guess trying to go for quick spool is the reason you have a top-mount, but how are you going to get that large of a turbo spooled up that fast?

3) No front mount with that much power is going to be interesting.

Will put in an ACT street clutch with stock flywheel (refinished) coupled with AndrewTech gears (they're about 5 miles from the house).

For now (until I save a few more grand), will stick with stock clutch. Rather burn out the clutch than explode the tranny.

May eventually go with a FMIC; for now though, the larger MRT should suffice. Again, a dollar issue. (I figure this "Stage 1" of the build will run about $7K...)

Tony
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Old 07-05-2006, 05:24 PM   #19
Thomas Ruble
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Question:

-Can I remove the engine without discharging the A/C lines?
>Yes. I used a bungy (sp) cord to support the A/C compressor.

-Does the radiator need to come out?
>Absolutely... You will need room to pull and lift the motor out. Same goes for when you perform the reinstall later. It's not worth the potential damage.

Would recommend that you purchase an engine leveler to be used with the hoist ( very helpful with both removing the motor/tranny and with the reinstall ).

I have pulled my motor three times for various build projects ( by myself ) and have learned a few pearls along the way.

By the way keep everything well organized and take notes. It's a hell of a lot easier to pull things than it will be to reinstall.

Good luck, you CAN do it !

TR.
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Old 07-06-2006, 10:45 AM   #20
mokujin22
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas Ruble
Question:

-Can I remove the engine without discharging the A/C lines?
>Yes. I used a bungy (sp) cord to support the A/C compressor.

-Does the radiator need to come out?
>Absolutely... You will need room to pull and lift the motor out. Same goes for when you perform the reinstall later. It's not worth the potential damage.

Would recommend that you purchase an engine leveler to be used with the hoist ( very helpful with both removing the motor/tranny and with the reinstall ).

I have pulled my motor three times for various build projects ( by myself ) and have learned a few pearls along the way.

By the way keep everything well organized and take notes. It's a hell of a lot easier to pull things than it will be to reinstall.

Good luck, you CAN do it !

TR.
Thanks a lot, TR. Part of the reasons I am taking so long is because I'm taking a bunch of pictures and labeling everything. I'm anal to the point that every hose I pull off has two labels on it: "to front/top throttle body nipple," etc. I'm also either taping nuts and bolts into the parts they came off with or putting them back in where they came from. When I did my injectors a while back, I wasn't so anal anal and wish I had been.

Digital cameras are also a godsend for something like this. Thanks for the info on the radiator and the A/C comp.

Tony
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Old 07-07-2006, 11:01 AM   #21
mokujin22
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30 mpg 2000 Neon...Hi!

Default Dismantle Day 3

Went home yesterday, grabbed my dog and went over to my folk's house. Worked with my dad from 7:30 until about 11:00.

Got the following done:

-Pulled turbo
-Pulled alternator
-Pulled A/C comp and swung to driver's fender; tied to wheel (thx T.R.!)
-Dsconnected fuel lines
-Removed GBoD's (Green Brackets of Death)
-Removed Manifold and TGVs

Low Points:

-Forgot what a b*tch the GBoDs are to get off; especially on the passenger side where the coolant line case into the head blocks the bottom bracket bolt. See pic:



That's why that rear bottom bracket bolt will not be going back in.

-Having never removed the manifold before, I didn't realize that the cable tray and fuel lines were attached to the underside by a bunch of #12 bolts. Cracked the tray a bit... don't think it matters.

Anyways, Here's an updated pic. After getting the TGVs off, it seemed like a clean break point, so I left a few hoses still attached to the block and heads. There's actually not that much left attached to the long block.

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Old 07-07-2006, 11:02 AM   #22
mokujin22
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Default

I am just about to be at the point of pulling the motor. Still need to remove the radiator and disconnect the tranny. Both of which I've never done before.

Any tips for disconnecting the tranny or pulling the radiator?

The only reason I haven't done the radiator yet is b/c of the connection to the A/C compressor. Not really sure how that all works, dismantle-wise.

Tony
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Old 07-07-2006, 05:43 PM   #23
Thomas Ruble
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Any tips for disconnecting the tranny or pulling the radiator?

The only reason I haven't done the radiator yet is b/c of the connection to the A/C compressor. Not really sure how that all works, dismantle-wise.

> Their shouldn't be any connection between the radiator and A/C compressor. You might be looking at the A/C condensor in front of the radiator. Just drain the radiator and remove the upper and lower hoses ( too include the overflow hose ) and you'll be good to go.

To pull the motor from the tranny you will need to seperate the engine from the transmissions clutch housing. Just unbolt the housing from the block. Remove and put to the side the starter and clutch slave cylinder ( don't remove the clutch hose from the cylinder or you will have to bleed the system). Remove the clutch release lever shaft ( this holds the clutch fork in place ). The shaft is on the drivers side. Slide the shaft out carefully and lift up on the clutch fork ( the clutch release bearing remains attached to the clutch asssembly ). The clutch fork will now be disconnected from the release bearing. You will now have to make a decision on whether you want to remove the engine with the motor mounts still bolted onto the engine. Obviously you will need to unbolt the motor mounts from the engine subframe. The motor will have to be seperated from the tranny ( you can use and thin wide screw driver, but be gentle ) and then lifted up and away from the trannies main shaft. The problem with leaving the motor mounts in place is the bolts will hang up on their holes through the subframe when trying to seperate the motor from the tranny mainshaft which is resting inside the release bearing. You can certainly do it with the mounts still bolted to the motor ( I have twice before ) but it is definitely more of a wrestle. I would really suggest the usage of an engine leveler. This will allow you to tilt and lift at the same time. If you choose to remove the motor mounts completely, just attach the hoist to the motor first and gently lift until you have enough space to get at those bolts. This will also help to facilitate reinstall of the motor later.

TR

Last edited by Thomas Ruble; 07-07-2006 at 09:03 PM.
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Old 07-08-2006, 08:20 PM   #24
BVM
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Yeah those engine mount to block bolts suck to get to.

Good luck with the build. I am thinking of a similar engine build.
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Old 07-08-2006, 09:13 PM   #25
mokujin22
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30 mpg 2000 Neon...Hi!

Default Dismanlte Day 4

Welp, just got home from day 4. Engine out.

Got over to my folks around 11:00 with my GF, Maria and my buddy, Garrett (V-Dub guy). Ran over to Harbor Freight and picked up an engine balancer, an air grinder and engine stand. Stopped by Rentals Unlimited to pick up a hoist ($25 per day..can't complain).

Anyway, got cracking around 1:00 and finished around 7:30. One serious p.i.t.a was getting the plug out that covers that stinking tranny pin. Screwed around with it for a good little bit until I realized you had to pull the started. May it a bit easier, but I still think that someone super-glued the plug in previously.

Separating the block itself from the tranny was no cake either. Had to use a crow bar and a big-ass screwdriver as a chisel.

People over and beers to be drunk. Will post pics later.

Tony
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