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Old 05-17-2016, 08:53 PM   #1
warin
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At the Track Catch can heavy breathing SOLUTION!

Hi all,

Ive read through countless links on catch can setups and overflow problems on the track. There are a few problems that the boxer motors (suabru/porshce) guys encounter. The porsche guys have a dry sump that pumps the oil that goes into the heads back to the semi-dry sump system they have. We alas, have no such system. So when we push it on the track all the oil end up in the catch can or in the motor.

Looking at solutions before moving to a dry sump. I will employ a scavenger pump much the same as the motorbikes do (I come from a mtorbike racing background). My brother has also used a scavenger pump for his dune buggy, which had the same problem.

What I want to reduce is the oil into the catch can scenario.

My idea is to link the two rocker covers together and also have a catch can, as well as the opil scavenger pump for the rocker covers. Im not sure what size hoses to go with to REDUCE the oil going to the catch can. FYI the scavenger pump is a 2GPM pump that can run dry indefinately.

This can only be explained by a picture. So here you go, the options are the numbers, the description is the picture (sorry for the poor layout):



My thoughts are that oil travels up a smaller pipe faster than a larger pipe, so the cross pipe between the rocker covers should be smaller than the oil catch can pipe.


Happy for opinons!
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Old 05-17-2016, 09:44 PM   #2
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Default Catch can heavy breathing SOLUTION!

There's a good AOS/Catch can thread on IWSTI.

Edit: it's here: http://www.iwsti.com/forums/2-5-lite...ns-thread.html
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Old 05-18-2016, 12:50 AM   #3
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Idea sounds like it could work in theory. I'm curious if it would "pressurize" the crank case pumping "air" from the heads to the pan?
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Old 05-18-2016, 01:57 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by WhatTurboLag? View Post
Idea sounds like it could work in theory. I'm curious if it would "pressurize" the crank case pumping "air" from the heads to the pan?
Ive seen the boxer motor with a crank case vent. Cant recall if my EJ207 has one?
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Old 05-18-2016, 12:11 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by warin View Post
Hi all,

Ive read through countless links on catch can setups and overflow problems on the track.
This is the whole reason we designed and released our vector valve (Oil Control Valve), to prevent oil from coming out of the heads, and keeping it where it belongs!



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Old 05-18-2016, 02:50 PM   #6
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The EJ207 and EJ257 have the same venting setup. This is why the GpN set-up works on the EJ257 without any problems:


(GpN crankcase ventilation system w/catch can added)

Hoses are in grey and junctions/barbs are in yellow/gold.

I am not suggesting this system if you have already maxed out the capabilities of the OEM vents on a high power build - simply showing the system summary.

If you are going through the trouble of fabricating a scavenge pump, why not just bite the bullet and convert to a full dry sump system?
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Old 05-18-2016, 07:59 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by warin View Post
FYI the scavenger pump is a 2GPM pump that can run dry indefinately.

This can only be explained by a picture. So here you go, the options are the numbers, the description is the picture (sorry for the poor layout):

A single scavenge pump would't work the way you've got it plumbed up in both pictures. That is, T'd together to the single inlet of the scavenge pump. Now it would work if both heads (rocker covers to used your term) had a level of oil in the up to the hoses that you've plumbed to the scavenge pump. Problem is once you start turning, lets say left, and pulling G's the left head will have hardly any oil pooling up in it, most of it draining right back into the sump. While oil will pool up in the right head. Now the scavenge pump gonna's do what's easiest and just pump crankcase air and vapors from the left head. Oil's heavier and thicker than air so it'll just pump air.

To get this to work you'd have to have mechanical or electric valve(s) that only allowed the pump to 'see' the head that had oil pooling up in it. Or run two scavenge pumps, or a 2 stage scavenge pump
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Old 05-18-2016, 08:26 PM   #8
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Thanks MrSaturn for the information! Much better that the crankcase is vented! I have seriously considered a dry sump it values out at $7k to do properly. As the secondhand motor only cost me $1.5 and a replacement sti OEM shortblock is only $2k (AUS), the value isnt there. Perhaps in the future. I am in the middle of rebuilding/motor swap, but I am rebuilding with the view of the sustained G forces I am likely to achieve. I will log the oil pressures on the ECU but prevention is best or at least have solutions in my mind in readiness... thanks again!

Thanks KillerB, you definitely have the best kit, no question there. I am trying to remove the problem of the oil pooling in the rocker covers/heads in the first place. Porsche have done it in the past, I'll look deeper into their resolution.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 68Cadillac View Post
A single scavenge pump would't work the way you've got it plumbed up in both pictures. That is, T'd together to the single inlet of the scavenge pump. Now it would work if both heads (rocker covers to used your term) had a level of oil in the up to the hoses that you've plumbed to the scavenge pump. Problem is once you start turning, lets say left, and pulling G's the left head will have hardly any oil pooling up in it, most of it draining right back into the sump. While oil will pool up in the right head. Now the scavenge pump gonna's do what's easiest and just pump crankcase air and vapors from the left head. Oil's heavier and thicker than air so it'll just pump air.

To get this to work you'd have to have mechanical or electric valve(s) that only allowed the pump to 'see' the head that had oil pooling up in it. Or run two scavenge pumps, or a 2 stage scavenge pump
Very true 'the path of least resistance'. I'm deciding on an electric scavenge pump or use a dual port powersteering pump. Not sure on the particulars of the PS pump and whether or not it will self-prime (something tells me 'no'). If I go electric, then I will definitely have to deal with the issue you describe, surely there is a valve setup I can do, my brain isn't in gear yet... might go grab a coffee and think on it.

Last edited by warin; 05-18-2016 at 09:24 PM.
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Old 05-19-2016, 06:38 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by mrsaturn7085 View Post
The EJ207 and EJ257 have the same venting setup. This is why the GpN set-up works on the EJ257 without any
Define without any problems. How long is a rally stage? What surfaces are they running on? How often are the engines inspected, torn down, and have readily available replacements? Pushed to what extreme limits using completely different tuning strategies? With what kind of P-W clearances/blowby and crankcase pressures?

Because 'racecar' or WRC 'solutions' pop up quite often as a solution for a street, drag, or road coarse problem. IMO, the solution needs to be a solution for the intended application.
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Old 05-19-2016, 06:51 AM   #10
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If I go electric, then I will definitely have to deal with the issue you describe
It's been a while since I've looked, but you may have trouble finding an electric scavenge pump with the flow capacity to make a difference. The electric units we use that are specifically designed for oil scavenging, are very low flow rates. We use them for scavenging oil from a turbo drain, that is being fed by a .030-.045" hole. The oil output to each head at racing RPMs is a lot.
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Old 05-19-2016, 11:44 AM   #11
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It's been a while since I've looked, but you may have trouble finding an electric scavenge pump with the flow capacity to make a difference. The electric units we use that are specifically designed for oil scavenging, are very low flow rates. We use them for scavenging oil from a turbo drain, that is being fed by a .030-.045" hole. The oil output to each head at racing RPMs is a lot.
Very good point! The electric scavenge pumps I've seen that are decent quality (helical brass gears, no gaskets, etc) and actually do the job are from 2-3GPM (7.5-11.3LPM). This is a obviously a static flow. Whilst this flow is low, but I will not be in a corner for longer than 4 seconds. So:

We take that 4 second maximum and calculate the flow on the 11mm oil pump I have @ 6,000rpm being 63LPM (or 1.05 Litres per second) so total maximum flow equals 4.2Litres.

The maximum total flow for the electric pump is 0.125LPS or 0.5Litre over the 4 seconds. So it doesn't keep up with the maximum possible flow of the 11mm oil pump. (Link)

The Million dollar question is, how much oil goes into the head on hard G-force corners. I guarantee it's not 4.2 litres, but I also doubt its less than 0.5L. Mind you, do you have to move the total amount of oil that's pumped into the rocker cover/head or just a percentage of it. Either way, this is a BIG question and I'd have to shell out $500 for two electric pumps just to find out. For anyone in the future who wants to go in this direction, these guys spell out the positive and negatives of electric 'oil' pumps well:

http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/oilsystems.htm

Anyways, back to our issue! The dual port power steering pump is looking like the option here, it has very good properties due to the fact it revs with the motor (flow increase as rpm increases). It is inexpensive (I have a spare dual port on the shelf). I will just have to test the self-priming scavenging properties. If I remove/drill the spool valve (#8 in the below picture) I will get flow with minimal pressure. Though I may have to relocate the pump to below the heads to get 'self-priming'.



You guys are the guru's. Any thoughts gents? Whats the best way to test? Am I way off centre?

Last edited by warin; 05-19-2016 at 12:01 PM.
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Old 05-19-2016, 11:51 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KillerBMotorsport View Post
Define without any problems.
Externally, the barbs are the same - he asked about EJ207 venting, I showed him the EJ257 and EJ207 were the same in terms of physical venting barbs. I am also not talking about WRC, I said GpN; while this digresses from my point, this implies a more or less a showroom stock EJ207 w/32-33 mm restrictor (at the time). Please re-read my post, as it seems you may have missed the following:

"I am not suggesting this system if you have already maxed out the capabilities of the OEM vents on a high power build - simply showing the system summary."
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Old 05-19-2016, 11:55 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by mrsaturn7085 View Post
Externally, the barbs are the same - he asked about EJ207 venting, I showed him the EJ257 and EJ207 were the same in terms of physical venting barbs. I am also not talking about WRC, I said GpN; this imples a more or less a showroom stock EJ207 w/32-33 mm restrictor. Please re-read my post, as it seems you may have missed the following:

"I am not suggesting this system if you have already maxed out the capabilities of the OEM vents on a high power build - simply showing the system summary."
Yes, thank you MrSaturn. JUST the information I was looking for.
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Old 05-19-2016, 12:49 PM   #14
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The Million dollar question is, how much oil goes into the head on hard G-force corners.
Your calculation are based on the pump's minimum factory specs. There are a couple ways to interpret this. Really the best method for making an accurate assessment is to know what the flow is coming out the heads, not what the pump is capable of. This is where many make poor assumptions, and if you really want to know, it has to be tested ON an engine.

Or just overbuild your scavenge setup.

Quote:
Originally Posted by warin View Post
Anyways, back to our issue! The dual port power steering pump is looking like the option here, it has very good properties due to the fact it revs with the motor (flow increase as rpm increases).
Vane pumps do not fare well when pulling slugs of air (which it would), plus they are designed to make pressure not suck (pun intended). Knowing how little flow is required to make power steering work, I'd be very surprised if this was a viable option. Maybe I'm wrong.

If you want mechanical, I suggest an OEM 2014+ FA20 turbo sump scavenge pump, or getting an actual scavenge stage.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrsaturn7085 View Post
simply showing the system summary
Noted
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Old 05-19-2016, 11:53 PM   #15
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Your calculation are based on the pump's minimum factory specs. There are a couple ways to interpret this. Really the best method for making an accurate assessment is to know what the flow is coming out the heads, not what the pump is capable of. This is where many make poor assumptions, and if you really want to know, it has to be tested ON an engine.

Or just overbuild your scavenge setup.

Vane pumps do not fare well when pulling slugs of air (which it would), plus they are designed to make pressure not suck (pun intended). Knowing how little flow is required to make power steering work, I'd be very surprised if this was a viable option. Maybe I'm wrong.

If you want mechanical, I suggest an OEM 2014+ FA20 turbo sump scavenge pump, or getting an actual scavenge stage.
Thanks, Chris, I agree the only real way to know is to workout the oil flow out into the head. I Can't think of a way to do this though. Porsche have done it, I'm sure they will give me the data.

I'll test run the power steering idea (its free) and see if it will self scavenge and also calc oil flow. Failing that, I will go down the electric oil scavenger path and see how far it goes (log flow with a sensor).

Last edited by warin; 05-20-2016 at 12:06 AM.
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Old 05-20-2016, 08:42 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by KillerBMotorsport View Post
This is the whole reason we designed and released our vector valve (Oil Control Valve), to prevent oil from coming out of the heads, and keeping it where it belongs!




can you email me some literature on your oil control valve. I've started tracking my 06 JDM STI and had some blow by issues in the past. Ive installed the perrin aos and did some head work recently. Oil rings are set perfectly but i would still like to ensure I'm not loosing oil anywhere.

[email protected]
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Old 05-20-2016, 09:50 PM   #17
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KillerB if I hooked up your Vector Oil Control Valve to the wrong heads and plumbed it to the lower portion of the valve covers by welding some bungs on could I

get your valve to only provide scavenge to the head filling with oil if provided sufficient vacuum from a scavenge pump? That is could I get to switch to the head filling with oil and pump that oil out?
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Old 05-22-2016, 01:44 AM   #18
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Okay, had a moment and thought I'd sketch out a few other ideas, cause I'm not totally happy with these ideas so far. So I thought, we have three connections to the motor; 1 to each head and the crank case. What we need:
1- Oil to return to the sump when it goes into the heads.
2- Pressure relief for the heads and the crank.

Sounds simple! LOL!

I've come up with a third thought on the solution. I haven't thought about this idea for more than 30 minutes but thought I'd dump it here for those with more experience.

Basically, join both standard vents for the heads together (ones that usually go to the PCV). weld some fittings on the bottom of the heads/rocker covers that terminate into the sump in a high and central position. Plumb the crank case vent to a catch can.

Picture says a thousand words:



My idea is; when you turn a corner at high G force, that the positive pressure in the opposing head provides pressure to the top of the head that has oil in it. That oil is then pushed into the sump due to air pressure. Then the crank case is vented via a standard catch can arrangement. Then use Killer B's 'oil control valve' to stop positive pressure, pressurising the crank case instead of opposing the oil in the opposite head.

Last edited by warin; 05-22-2016 at 01:55 AM.
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Old 05-22-2016, 01:56 AM   #19
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KillerB if I hooked up your Vector Oil Control Valve to the wrong heads and plumbed it to the lower portion of the valve covers by welding some bungs on could I get your valve to only provide scavenge to the head filling with oil if provided sufficient vacuum from a scavenge pump? That is could I get to switch to the head filling with oil and pump that oil out?
Great Idea! Kinda adding to your idea with the above.
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Old 05-22-2016, 09:26 AM   #20
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Warin, I just took a quick read and there are two immediate issues I can see with your plan. One is that crankcase pressure acts on everything in the crankcase, which means you can't really push anything in any direction. The other is that under severe cornering, the drains on the bottom of the head-to-sump will fill, and stay full, during a corner. Take your picture and tip it at 45* and you'll see what the forces are doing. Your sketch assumes the oil is held in the heads and normal downward gravity (which you don't have in a corner) will push it to the sump.

Oil comes out the head breather lines because the head fills (in a corner), are experiencing pressure, and the other side of the vent is either to vacuum or atm, creating a pressure differential.

Last edited by KillerBMotorsport; 05-22-2016 at 12:16 PM.
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Old 05-22-2016, 05:00 PM   #21
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Hi Chris,

I understand what you are saying. My thoughts were that the pressure from the other cylinder would 'push' the oil from the top (down into the sump).
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Old 05-22-2016, 09:14 PM   #22
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Hi Chris,

I understand what you are saying. My thoughts were that the pressure from the other cylinder would 'push' the oil from the top (down into the sump).
Unfortunately, it doesn't work that way. That would make things easy
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