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Old 01-02-2013, 10:42 PM   #2501
Layvon
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Thank you much for the post! That helped a lot. the one thing I did know is it uses a smart signal to send two bits of data with one voltage. The voltage is one, and the pulse width is the other. I think the voltage is the ethanol content as the pulse width is fuel temp.

Only thing I might add is ill be doing it on the Link platform vs Hydra.
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Old 01-06-2013, 11:25 PM   #2502
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I just finished a HUGE weekend working on the car! Here's my story and status:

As many of you know, I need to be able to switch back to the AccessPort/Stock ECU on demand so I came up with what I think is a pretty good idea. I purchased a number of "weather pack" connectors from one of my favorite vendors, Performance Plus Connection.



I then spliced my new weather pack connectors into a few of the wire looms on the car that connected either Hydra or Stock ECU specific sensors. I also installed three of these on the Hydra's adapter harness to make it easily removable. I no longer have any soldered wires holding he harness into the car which makes swapping ECUs about a five minute project. This pict is about half way through the job. I actually forgot to take a finished picture but you get the idea.




I started with the IAT sensor, which must be changed when switching between ECUs. All the Element Tuning base maps assume that the stock MAF with integrated IAT sensor are being used which means the stock piece is the preferred setup. While it sounds crazy, when using the Hydra, the stock MAF w/IAT sensor is supposed to be bolted into the fender NOT inside the intake or intercooler pipes. The idea is that the sensor will get an accurate sample of ambient air which is what the ECU really needs to know. I simply placed a weather pack connector on the end of the factory MAF loom and created an adapter harnesses so I could swap at will:




I created the stock MAF adapter by soldering wires on the end of the factory MAF plug to lengthen the 1.5 inch pieces I left when I cut the plug off:




Then I placed the weather pack pins and seals on the wires:




Here's an example of one of the pins. I use a torch on a very low flame setting to solder these instead of crimping them. I feel the soldering them is a much more reliable way of using the connectors.




Here's the finished product, stock MAF harness on one and and 5-Pin weather pack on the other:






I clipped this harness onto the maf which I have had bolted into my fender well for many years:




On the other hand, the AccessPort is setup to use a GM IAT sensor in the intercooler pipes. I made another harness with the same idea, weather pack on one end and GM IAT sensor plug on the other end. This harness had to be much longer as it needed to go near where the factory intercooler was located.

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Old 01-06-2013, 11:36 PM   #2503
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The Hydra also uses its own integrated MAP and Wideband O2 sensor. The MAP sensor is actually located INSIDE the ECU chassis instead of using a electric MAP sensor under the hood. Apparently heat has a very adverse effect on MAP sensors and the engineers thought that locating the MAP sensor inside the passenger compartment verses the engine bay would help.

I ran a long 3/16 hose from the intake manifold to the Hydra as well as the WB O2 wire from the down pipe to the Hydra.



I think this grommet is full now:





Once I had all the wiring done, I needed to load the Hydra 2.7 / 2005 STI base map that Phil sent me. I also needed to spend some time calibrating the WB02 and drive by wire systems. Here's the WB plugged in and warming up:





Calibrating the drive by wire system is similar to calibrating a joystick for a game console, you release the pedal (dont press it), hit a button and then press it all the way down and hit another button.





After getting the DBW and WB taken care of, I checked the status of the flex fuel sensor. As you can see here in one of the diagnostics outputs, there's currently 9.4% Ethanol in my fuel which makes sense (all fuel in PA is E10).




I also spent time working on programming outputs for the fuel system and boost control. Let me tell you that I REALLY missed this with the AccessPort. Being able to plug a wire in and program an output and then connecting a single wire for FULL functionality is amazing. With the AP I spent months designing complicated electronics to take the place of the Hydra which really sucked. i wont have all my automated gadgets running on the stock ECU any more but its not that big of a deal since thats just for troubleshooting, future emissions testing (if it ever happens), etc.

The good news is that my Hydra 2.7 is installed, programmed and ready to go. Now all I need to do is take the car down to Phil and have him pick up where I left off.

Last edited by dexterous; 01-07-2013 at 07:05 AM.
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Old 01-07-2013, 12:10 AM   #2504
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dexterous View Post

I started with the IAT sensor, which must be changed when switching between ECUs. All the Element Tuning base maps assume that the stock MAF with integrated IAT sensor are being used which means the stock piece is the preferred setup. While it sounds crazy, when using the Hydra, the stock MAF w/IAT sensor is supposed to be bolted into the fender NOT inside the intake or intercooler pipes. The idea is that the sensor will get an accurate sample of ambient air which is what the ECU really needs to know. I simply placed a weather pack connector on the end of the factory MAF loom and created an adapter harnesses so I could swap at will:



I wholeheartedly disagree with the parts in red. Ambient temperature is all the ecu is GOING to know but proper IAT should be actual intake air temp so the ecu can compensate for things like heat soak and extended pulls when your core might actually start to heat up.

If you already had an IAT in your intercooler pipe I don't understand why you moved it back to the fender well. That's taking steps backwards not forward.
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Old 01-07-2013, 06:52 AM   #2505
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^ agree, but maybe there is some logic behind this action we are not privy to.

So my questions are how does the ECU compensate to IAT changes due to compressor efficiency, intercooler efficiency, heat soak, etc?
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Old 01-07-2013, 06:59 AM   #2506
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Originally Posted by kellygnsd View Post
I wholeheartedly disagree with the parts in red. Ambient temperature is all the ecu is GOING to know but proper IAT should be actual intake air temp so the ecu can compensate for things like heat soak and extended pulls when your core might actually start to heat up.

If you already had an IAT in your intercooler pipe I don't understand why you moved it back to the fender well. That's taking steps backwards not forward.

Have you ever used/tuned a Hydra ECU? I ask because 99% of the guys who dont use Hydras have this same reaction. That being said, thats how every car that passes through Element Tuning gets setup. It obviously works well enough as my car has been like this since 2008 with the only exception being my short stint with the AccessPort this summer and fall.
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Old 01-07-2013, 07:11 AM   #2507
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kellygnsd View Post

I wholeheartedly disagree with the parts in red. Ambient temperature is all the ecu is GOING to know but proper IAT should be actual intake air temp so the ecu can compensate for things like heat soak and extended pulls when your core might actually start to heat up.

If you already had an IAT in your intercooler pipe I don't understand why you moved it back to the fender well. That's taking steps backwards not forward.
I agree with Kelly here. Regardless if you are running a MAF or Speed Density based tune the temps at or near the throttle body are what the ECU should be seeing!
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Old 01-07-2013, 08:06 AM   #2508
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dexterous View Post
Have you ever used/tuned a Hydra ECU? I ask because 99% of the guys who dont use Hydras have this same reaction. That being said, thats how every car that passes through Element Tuning gets setup. It obviously works well enough as my car has been like this since 2008 with the only exception being my short stint with the AccessPort this summer and fall.
No I've never tuned a hydra but the fundamentals of SD tuning are the same weather you're on Motec, Haltech, Link, or Hydra. If you want the best IAT corrections you should have a probe measures actual intake air temperature.

Maybe you should ask Phil if this was a compromise to make the hydra a more plug and play system. Also ask him if he had his preference, where would he mount it.

Since you already had an IAT sensor in the IC pipe for Cobb SD you're halfway there. Was the Cobb IAT wired into the existing MAF IAT wires? Just rescale the sensor in the Hydra and zero out the IAT comps. Phil can retune those against actual IATs on the dyno.

I know it's been working as is but it would also work with no IAT sensor as I've seen SD setups tuned with no IAT comps whatsoever. Can it be done, yes. Is it optimal? NO but I'm not tuning your car and that's just my opinion.
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Old 01-07-2013, 09:22 AM   #2509
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Wow, you're running SD with no IAT sensor?! That is a hack, period. Let's hope your intercooler is able to change the charge temp to near ambient, no matter what.
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Old 01-07-2013, 12:26 PM   #2510
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kellygnsd View Post
No I've never tuned a hydra but the fundamentals of SD tuning are the same weather you're on Motec, Haltech, Link, or Hydra. If you want the best IAT corrections you should have a probe measures actual intake air temperature.

Maybe you should ask Phil if this was a compromise to make the hydra a more plug and play system. Also ask him if he had his preference, where would he mount it.

Since you already had an IAT sensor in the IC pipe for Cobb SD you're halfway there. Was the Cobb IAT wired into the existing MAF IAT wires? Just rescale the sensor in the Hydra and zero out the IAT comps. Phil can retune those against actual IATs on the dyno.

I know it's been working as is but it would also work with no IAT sensor as I've seen SD setups tuned with no IAT comps whatsoever. Can it be done, yes. Is it optimal? NO but I'm not tuning your car and that's just my opinion.
This is just one of those fundamentals I've argued for a long time, where to place the IAT sensor. I've had many, many, insist IAT at the intake is wrong, only to have them install the temp sensor post throttle body and then tell you me I was right.

I'm just going to give a brief explanation why this is with the Hydra but frankly anyone can do as they like and put it anywhere they like with the Hydra. First and foremost the Hydra is tuned via speed density, so that's primarily load vs. RPM with compensations for TPS, IAT, Coolant......and many more. So for a moment lets take the IAT out of the equation and as you tune a particular setup you start at vacuum, tune fuel, etc., increase boost, and tune accordingly. Changes in volumetric efficiency are compensated for already in the main fuel and timing maps. So if at high boost the engine combination is inefficient you'll already be reducing fuel and ignition timing to compensate. The same applies to RPM changes.

The Hydra also uses calculated "port intake air temperature," which calculates the IAT at the intake and adjusts the value to estimate what the actual intake air temperature is at the throttle body. This allows for adjustment in fueling from idle and high RPM. The reason we do this is because IAT sensor mounted into the intake are much too prone to heat soak and the inability to then react quickly enough to real air temps at the intake filter.

Ok so now let's add the IAT into the mix and place it at the filter. Now as boost increases or decreases VE is taken care of in the main maps and as ambient temperature changes at the intake we apply a correction factor for fueling and ignition based intake temp and calculated port temperature. As the ambient intake air temp increases we remove fuel to deal with the lack of oxygen and as the temp reduces we add fuel to deal with increased oxygen. Tuned, tested, and proven over years with my base tuned base maps.

Now a customer decides he/she wants to put the IAT post intercooler. Now all of a sudden you are not dealing with a 1 to 1 ratio of intake air temp to port air temp. With a turbocharger and an efficient intercooler if you air temp increases by 1 your port air temp is not going to increase by one. Now all of a sudden you've lost some resolution in how your EMS deals with temperature changes. You'll now have to toss out years of IAT tuning with my base maps and start over with your own IAT curve that will only work with your given set of modifications (turbo and intercooler). The volumetric efficiencies that were already programmed into the base fuel map are now totally wrong because now your air temp is moving around based on RPM and boost.

You're just adding a lot of work for yourself without any benefit. But you say but hey my IAT are shooting up I need to compensate for that. If you use that logic, if your IATs are shooting up because you're now inefficient, why would you want to lean out your AFR? Did you all of a sudden ingest less oxygen at the intake? No, but you've decided that since the IAT has increased you need to reduce fuel. Did you really want to reduce fuel when things are starting to get hotter due to compressor/intercooler inefficiency? No because as your engine gets closer to detonation it wouldn't hurt to run a little richer.

So now you see, with the Hydra we deal with VE changes in the main maps, and IAT is used for dealing with ambient temperature changes which effect oxygen levels at the intake and also intercooler efficiency. If your intercooler is starting to overheat on run much hotter than you really tuned it for, then with my preferred OEM method you'll run automatically run a touch richer, which will help prevent detonation under this condition.

That is why we do what we do, proven over years of racing and road tuning. It works so we'll I just can't change it, even on my race car especially when a substantial amount of customers have tested the other method only to come back to our standard way.

Its a free world so anyone can do what they like or how they like but for Tom he's done listening to everyone else and just wants what's proven.
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Old 01-07-2013, 12:47 PM   #2511
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agreed, its very good to have 2 temp sensors
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Old 01-07-2013, 01:01 PM   #2512
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Element Tuning View Post
The Hydra also uses calculated "port intake air temperature," which calculates the IAT at the intake and adjusts the value to estimate what the actual intake air temperature is at the throttle body.
Please excuse my ignorance, but how does the Hyrda calculate 'port intake air temperature'?
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Old 01-07-2013, 02:26 PM   #2513
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Please excuse my ignorance, but how does the Hyrda calculate 'port intake air temperature'?
I'm interested in this as well.
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Old 01-07-2013, 03:40 PM   #2514
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Originally Posted by MRF582 View Post
Please excuse my ignorance, but how does the Hyrda calculate 'port intake air temperature'?
It's a calculation based on a formula derived from measuring the intake air temp and the manifold air temp. For instance if you wanted to do this yourself you would need two sensors and at idle you would clearly see the difference in the two temperature readings. What's happening is that the air traveling through your intake is moving relatively slow and is actually heated by the intake pipes in your engine bay. As RPM and time increase the air travels much faster and eventually there is no additional heating from the intake pipes.

For those with Hydras that don't understand the concept all it takes is a data log or to watch in real time the "port air temperature" to see how it differs from the IAT. Calculated port air temp makes a real difference in AFR stability during idle and very low RPM compared to just using one 2D linear IAT compensation curve. So if there was a downside to running your air temp sensor at the intake like OEM vs. closer to the throttle body this calculated port air temp compensation has addressed that.
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Old 01-07-2013, 04:00 PM   #2515
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Thats good info i always wondered about that. So phil it would behoove me to move mine from the intake to the wheel well???
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Old 01-07-2013, 04:20 PM   #2516
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Thats good info i always wondered about that. So phil it would behoove me to move mine from the intake to the wheel well???
No you're fine because your base map was done with a standard OEM location for the IAT. The reason most move the IAT to the wheel well is so that they can run a straight and unrestricted 4" intake when using rotated turbocharger kits. Because of this most of my rotated kit base maps are tuned with the IAT pulling only ambient temps.
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Old 01-07-2013, 04:35 PM   #2517
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No you're fine because your base map was done with a standard OEM location for the IAT. The reason most move the IAT to the wheel well is so that they can run a straight and unrestricted 4" intake when using rotated turbocharger kits. Because of this most of my rotated kit base maps are tuned with the IAT pulling only ambient temps.
Ok gotcha thanks!!
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Old 01-07-2013, 05:45 PM   #2518
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Element Tuning View Post
It's a calculation based on a formula derived from measuring the intake air temp and the manifold air temp. For instance if you wanted to do this yourself you would need two sensors and at idle you would clearly see the difference in the two temperature readings. What's happening is that the air traveling through your intake is moving relatively slow and is actually heated by the intake pipes in your engine bay. As RPM and time increase the air travels much faster and eventually there is no additional heating from the intake pipes.

For those with Hydras that don't understand the concept all it takes is a data log or to watch in real time the "port air temperature" to see how it differs from the IAT. Calculated port air temp makes a real difference in AFR stability during idle and very low RPM compared to just using one 2D linear IAT compensation curve. So if there was a downside to running your air temp sensor at the intake like OEM vs. closer to the throttle body this calculated port air temp compensation has addressed that.
I understand and agree with everything you're saying. This is one of the reasons we use stainless intercooler tubing from intercooler to throttle body. With aluminum you can see a +15 increase just going down a hill (light to no throttle), when the radiator fan comes on and cooks everything and so on. Stainless cut that down to a few degrees unless you sit and idle for a long time.

What I'm still not able to wrap my mind around is temp compensation for intercooler efficiency and heat loading? There is always a delt from ambient, especially under heavy load, and more-so on a turbocharger that's pushed to the far end of the efficiency island. In these scenarios there is a huge amount of air moving through the system that's HOT, or at least quite a bit hotter than ambient.

I've only been exposed to AP at this point and I don't doubt that it works, I just want to understand how.
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Old 01-07-2013, 06:12 PM   #2519
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Just to check my understanding too. I think Phil was saying that yes there is heat generated from the turbo but you are not concerned with it because you are already tuning the fuel and timing tables based on that heat generation anyway. The ambient air temp will determine the ic efficiency and of course final temperature so that is the only compensation needed other than at idle.
Edit
Also from my understanding that is why the oem temp sensor is better left preturbo in the open source speed density maps.
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Old 01-07-2013, 06:52 PM   #2520
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I'm gonna read this page over...5 more times.
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Old 01-07-2013, 07:04 PM   #2521
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So the timing and fuel maps account for the ammount of oxygen that is present post turbo and intercooler, by using the afr from the oxygen sensor signal post combustion?
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Old 01-07-2013, 08:28 PM   #2522
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The ambient air temp will determine the ic efficiency and of course final temperature so that is the only compensation needed other than at idle.
Not entirely true. An intercooler will be much more efficient in freezing temps than it will on a 110 day. Same goes with humidity. As wet bulb changes, so does a heat exchangers efficiency.

Maybe I'm overthinking it... or underthinking it
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Old 01-07-2013, 09:12 PM   #2523
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Not entirely true. An intercooler will be much more efficient in freezing temps than it will on a 110 day. Same goes with humidity. As wet bulb changes, so does a heat exchangers efficiency.

Maybe I'm overthinking it... or underthinking it
Isn't that what I said? The ambient temp determines the ic efficiency. Lol. So yes I agree with you about that. Phil is saying that this is sufficient for tuning. I tend to agree. I do think its a different situation on a top mounted car though. In that case sitting in traffic the intercooler can become very hot while the ambient air temp sensor will never know. But that doesn't ever apply to any of Phil's hydra cars to my knowledge. I think anyone buying a hydra has a front mount.
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Old 01-07-2013, 10:07 PM   #2524
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^ Right but radiant engine heat isn't the only heat here. Turbo outlet temps increase as well at high load with high flow depending on many conditions. I'm more curious about how these temps are compensated for.
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Old 01-07-2013, 10:12 PM   #2525
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Originally Posted by kakarot09 View Post
Isn't that what I said? The ambient temp determines the ic efficiency. Lol. So yes I agree with you about that. Phil is saying that this is sufficient for tuning. I tend to agree. I do think its a different situation on a top mounted car though. In that case sitting in traffic the intercooler can become very hot while the ambient air temp sensor will never know. But that doesn't ever apply to any of Phil's hydra cars to my knowledge. I think anyone buying a hydra has a front mount.
I know of a guy who ran a Hydra with a TMIC on a 02 WRX a while back. I think he sold the car a year or two ago but I am not sure.
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