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Old 08-04-2012, 09:01 AM   #251
CatfaceType-R
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Here's some basics, as I could write for pages on my ideas...

Take whatever I say with a grain of salt as it's a lot of theory that comes natural to me(idk why, but I see these drag passes in a different way than others...sometimes this get's
people mad).

Here's some good writeup I found that does some informing of the very basics. This isn't awd specific, but our rwd biased, subaru awd leaves more like a rwd car, decently different but very similar to the evo's.

Quote:
Explanations for bad runs vary from driver to driver and from race to race. While many factors may at one time or another be responsible for creating inconsistent performances, commonly the problem can be traced to the suspension.

Drag racers are always searching for the right combination for a winning run. For various reasons, shocks are overlooked-- more so in drag racing than in other forms of motorsports. Maybe the flow of information from the pros down through the ranks is slow or incomplete, or maybe the racers who perform well don't want to share their secrets. Product differences may also be a factor. Often racers at the top level are using products that are not readily available or affordable to the average drag racer. Whatever the reason, racers often try to tune a car by replacing the tires, changing the tire pressure, changing their leave RPM, or detuning their engines to achieve the desired results at the starting line. Sometimes the desired results are never found. Perhaps they could be found with proper attention to shocks.

Shocks can make an incredible difference in a race car's performance. Too often though, they are ignored as a viable tuning aid. The majority of drag shocks being used today are old, outdated, and in need of rebuilding. With regularly scheduled upgrades and rebuilds, an older set of shocks may perform reasonably well. Keep in mind, however, that unless they are properly maintained, an old and worn out set of shocks can have a negative effect on performance.

Shocks that perform well can and will enhance the performance of the chassis. This doesn't mean that shocks will cure every chassis problem. The entire suspension system has to perform well. But accurately adjusted shocks can improve the performance of the car. That performance improvement can often be the difference between making clean, consistent runs that result in round wins and making erratic passes that result in a loss or a DNQ. In short, a high quality adjustable shock will improve your racing.


SHOCK BASICS
A shock is a hydraulic device that dampens or resists chassis movement by passing fluid (oil) through a set of orifices and valved passages. In an adjustable shock, manipulating the fluid movement through the valving of the shock changes the dampening characteristics -- softness and stiffness. The range of softness to stiffness is an important consideration when evaluating a shock's quality. A shock with a broad adjustment range will give more bang for the buck, because a broad adjustment range will give more opportunity to find the optimum setting for the chassis. Dyno testing has proven that AFCO's shocks offer one of the widest adjustments ranges in the industry.

Rebound is the shock's resistance to being pulled apart. It can be used to control chassis separation, the point at which the axle housing is pushed away from the chassis and the tires are applied to the track. During separation, many things occur. Vector forces push the chassis up and forward -- and the axle housing sees the opposite force, the tires become compressed and the sidewalls wrap up. As the car moves forward, torque is created as the tires create traction to start this movement. Excessive separation can lead to some undesirable side effects. For example, wheel hop, can occur as the tire tries to return to its original form, the tire unwraps. Stiffening the rebound can control wheel hop if excessive separation has occurred. Tire shake is similar to wheel hop and can be addressed similarly. As a rule of thumb, a "bad" or "bald" starting line will require a softer rebound setting to apply the tires with more force. A "good" starting line can use a stiffer setting, as inherent traction exists and a sitffer rebound setting provides quicker vehicle reaction times; excessive separation only wastes time and energy.

Compression (bump) is the shock's resistance to the chassis moving down or the axle housings moving up or into the chassis. The compression adjustment is an important setting, as it determines how long the tires are held down on the track after chassis separation. When a soft rebound is selected, a rule of thumb seems to be to use a slightly stiffer compression setting, so as to control the rebound of the tire. Track testing can determine the correct setting.
So you don't need a top of the line set of coilovers...and to a certain extent, stock shocks and springs and ride height cause the geometry to be in line, which is what you have to replicate with coilovers; but you are probably beyond that point already(you have too much torque, to use the stock suspension, or close to that point, argueably).

So, you need a coilover that has adjustable rebound, as well as damping(which they all have).

You will also need to play with the ride height, which takes a lot of patience.

So, back to the "theory". You want to get the nose of the car in the air off the launch, but not so soft as to rock back or fall on the nose between shifts, this is where the damping comes into play. The tough part is that when you are in higher gears, this softness needed at the launch, is a detriment...so this is where it get's ugly and car specific.
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Old 08-04-2012, 09:45 AM   #252
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^ Great info. Thanks alot.

So lets see if I have this straight. My plan for coilovers is going to be:
1. A soft spring rate. ( Maybe the softest offered ?)
2. For the front I'll run loose on the rebound, Tight on the compression. (so it can come up quick, but not fall back down quick)
3. The rear will be looser on the compression, tighter on the rebound ? (to get it to squat and stay there)

Other things I'm gonna do : both sway bars out, forester lateral link mounts, play with tire pressures and two step settings.

Last edited by JTPerryR1; 08-04-2012 at 10:20 AM.
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Old 08-04-2012, 10:26 AM   #253
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Very nice. Added the videos to my Subaru youtube playlist.
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Old 08-04-2012, 11:01 AM   #254
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JTPerryR1 View Post
^ Great info. Thanks alot.

So lets see if I have this straight. My plan for coilovers is going to be:
1. A soft spring rate. ( Maybe the softest offered ?)
2. For the front I'll run loose on the rebound, Tight on the compression. (so it can come up quick, but not fall back down quick)
3. The rear will be looser on the compression, tighter on the rebound ? (to get it to squat and stay there)

Other things I'm gonna do : both sway bars out, forester lateral link mounts, play with tire pressures and two step settings.

Looks like u got it! very happy to hear! Now to spend the time messing with these settings, a good video of crew will help a lot with that. Also a positive camber is something to think about, as u squat, u want to have zero camber imo(downsti came up with my thinking on that, giving credit where credit is due)

Tranny braces, shifter "braces", kartboy and tic! and more braces...

Idk about the sway bar part, as in i don't talk out of my ass...i know some racers take them out...

Also, any aero work will help tremendously, but that I don't know a lot about...essentially blocking off air from coming in, is what most evo guys do(just bringing them up as they do the aero mods well.
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Old 08-06-2012, 11:31 AM   #255
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Quote:
Originally Posted by soon2bblackongold View Post
I'm about to go out for the night, but you definitely don't want 8k/10k's...don't do that Softer is better, until you start rocking on the shifts...which I saw your car already do jp.

It's about ride heighth first, then sort with damping.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JTPerryR1 View Post
Car weights 3386 right now. Im gonna try to shave a little , but itll probably always be over 3300.
That's about right. I agree that 10K's are way to stiff for drag in a full weight car. I would think something in the range of 8-9K in the rear and 7-8K up front would be ideal. You want the springs to be as soft as possible without allowing the front of the car to come up on launches. This can also be done as Blackongold stated with ride height, or more specifically, corner balance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by soon2bblackongold View Post
So you don't need a top of the line set of coilovers...

So, back to the "theory". You want to get the nose of the car in the air off the launch, but not so soft as to rock back or fall on the nose between shifts, this is where the damping comes into play. The tough part is that when you are in higher gears, this softness needed at the launch, is a detriment...so this is where it get's ugly and car specific.
I agree that you don't need to spend a lot of money on coilovers for your car to work the way you want it to. A decent set of $1000 coilovers (BC Racing for example) will do everything you need, and can be had with selectable spring rates.

Most people think you want the weight over the back of the car for drag raing, but actually, due to dynamic weight transfer during launch, you really want a slight bias to the front. Not so much on our cars as they are AWD, but still, you want prolly 60-65% of the weight at the front of the car. In a perfect world, we could use adjustable trailing arms to adjust the instant center of the vehicle and help with weight transfer, but our cars really aren't set-up that way.

So instead you have to use spring preload and ride height on our cars. It would be worthwile to invest in a good corner balance, but the same reults can be had, like blackongold stated, with trial and error.

If you use the weight transfer to push down on the rear wheels during launch, then you don't have to worry quite as much about the softer springs being a detriment because you can run a bit more preload to curb it a bit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JTPerryR1 View Post
^ Great info. Thanks alot.

So lets see if I have this straight. My plan for coilovers is going to be:
1. A soft spring rate. ( Maybe the softest offered ?)
2. For the front I'll run loose on the rebound, Tight on the compression. (so it can come up quick, but not fall back down quick)
3. The rear will be looser on the compression, tighter on the rebound ? (to get it to squat and stay there)

Other things I'm gonna do : both sway bars out, forester lateral link mounts, play with tire pressures and two step settings.
Everything in here looks perfect except running the softest spring you can find...i would stay in the 7K-9K range for a vehicle with that weight.

Your thoughts on dampening are dead on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by soon2bblackongold View Post
Also a positive camber is something to think about, as u squat, u want to have zero camber imo(downsti came up with my thinking on that, giving credit where credit is due)

Tranny braces, shifter "braces", kartboy and tic! and more braces...

Idk about the sway bar part, as in i don't talk out of my ass...i know some racers take them out...

Also, any aero work will help tremendously, but that I don't know a lot about...essentially blocking off air from coming in, is what most evo guys do(just bringing them up as they do the aero mods well.
Positive camber in the rear...run a little neg (prolly stock settings) in the front. You also want a hair of toe-in to compensate for any bump steer that you will get when the front end lifts.

Braces, braces, braces. Yes, yes, and yes.

I don't think you are really going fast enough for aero to make that big of a difference right now...i'd sort everything else out first and then save the aero work for those last couple of thousanths after you are comforatable with everything else.
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Old 08-06-2012, 11:57 AM   #256
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It looks like we are essentially on the same page on ideas(I agree about the tiny bit of neg front camber). Cheers, squidz.

I do think the aero 'block off' pieces help a lot, as letting that air in (where u don't need it) acts like a parachute. Drag racing= A sum of all the little things. Flat bottoming the car and aero block off's can REALLY help, imo; removing side mirrors is good, too.

It needs to be said that launching at the correct rpm where your powerband is, and having a shift light, based off of where torque starts to nose dive, is so important. When I had my STi, I never thought of most of this stuff, so it's watching others that helped, god works in mysterious way.
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Old 08-06-2012, 12:48 PM   #257
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Excellent info guys. Thank you.

So normally when you buy coilovers, the front spring rate is higher than the rear. I want the opposite, maybe a 1K difference ? For example 7K front and 8K rear ? And the main thing in my coilover selection is that they need to have independent rebound and compression adjusters, which I'm not sure that they all come with. I will check with the vendors.
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Old 08-06-2012, 12:58 PM   #258
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No worries bro, i've met some great friends on the forum, I love subaru people and love to help them.

Nah, imo, softer rear. How they come, as u said, is how u want them. We can see what other's have to say, though. I think I would have heard about a different spring rate for the rear, but it wouldn't be the first time I was wrong.

Someone needs to copy/paste, make a thread and sticky this...For everyone's sake.
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Old 08-06-2012, 02:05 PM   #259
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This thread is great. Lots of good info for the guys that want to go fast, and do it easy.

+1 to Carmi for laying it all out.

I don't really like coils, and if I do need to use them to clear a big tire I use the D2 drags. Usually around the same stock rear height. Front end lower, loose rear and posi camber in rear so you sit the tire on the contact patch.

As for the front, think or look up strapped big tire RWD cars. You basically want that. Our cars want to leave like a RWD because of the trans layout. USE THAT TO YOUR ADVANTAGE.

It pains me to see FWD baised EVOs cutting better 60fts then our Subies. We have TQ and rwd!!!!!
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Old 08-06-2012, 02:38 PM   #260
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Quote:
Originally Posted by soon2bblackongold
It looks like we are essentially on the same page on ideas(I agree about the tiny bit of neg front camber). Cheers, squidz.

I do think the aero 'block off' pieces help a lot, as letting that air in (where u don't need it) acts like a parachute. Drag racing= A sum of all the little things. Flat bottoming the car and aero block off's can REALLY help, imo; removing side mirrors is good, too.

It needs to be said that launching at the correct rpm where your powerband is, and having a shift light, based off of where torque starts to nose dive, is so important. When I had my STi, I never thought of most of this stuff, so it's watching others that helped, god works in mysterious way.
Fwiw on a gsxr 1000 the big boy drag racers say the side mirrors are worth a few tenths of a second......they apparently somehow calculated them as the same as a 8 hp loss.
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Old 08-06-2012, 02:40 PM   #261
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I would think you'd want to slowly soften rear end till the initial hit of power wasn't enough to make the tires unload and spin??
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Old 08-06-2012, 02:41 PM   #262
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But at the same time it seems the stiffer the rear end is, that would keep the chassis more level with the asphalt and keep more weight on front tires.....
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Old 08-06-2012, 03:15 PM   #263
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You want the softer ones in the rear. Honestly, for a drag car, i love the way it feels to have the same spring rate front and rear and simply run a bit less preload in the rear to soften them.
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Old 08-06-2012, 03:43 PM   #264
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Stiffer spring in the front is because of the heavy nose end..the rear doesn't need it, imo.

Don't forget that further down the track, you want no rocking between shifts, so it's a SET of tradeoff's. Letting an ems tell an edfc to dampen up after the 330' or 1/8th even, would be ideal...But i've not heard of anyone saying that, but i'm sure someone out there has done it.
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Old 08-06-2012, 03:50 PM   #265
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Quote:
Originally Posted by soon2bblackongold
Stiffer spring in the front is because of the heavy nose end..the rear doesn't need it, imo.

Don't forget that further down the track, you want no rocking between shifts, so it's a SET of tradeoff's. Letting an ems tell an edfc to dampen up after the 330' or 1/8th even, would be ideal...But i've not heard of anyone saying that, but i'm sure someone out there has done it.
Yeah would be easy to set up the aem to do that. I love mine!
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Old 08-07-2012, 07:21 AM   #266
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Great info in this thread, going to help a lot for the rest of the season of racing. Next time out jay the car will be going into the 9s
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Old 08-07-2012, 08:35 AM   #267
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Do you guys think I should make a thread on this? (drag race suspension setup). We've clogged up J's thread, quite a bit.

If anyone wants help or just an idea to bounce off, feel free to pm me. I'm not the best mechanic and know little about tuning, but I do know this stuff.

It's EASILY the most overlooked part of our cars, and it actually makes me sick when I see the transmission and clutch struggle because the suspension is at the incorrect setting. It's very obvious to the trained eye.

Doing this will help 60's, but more importantly, it will make the car easier to drive.

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Old 08-07-2012, 08:48 AM   #268
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Quote:
Originally Posted by soon2bblackongold
Do you guys think I should make a thread on this? (drag race suspension setup). We've clogged up J's thread, quite a bit.

If anyone wants help or just an idea to bounce off, feel free to pm me. I'm not the best mechanic and know little about tuning, but I do know this stuff.
Probably wouldn't be a bad idea. But make sure you tell people these are basic ideas/settings so you dont have to hear the crying about these ideas didnt work. Every car is different and some will like different things then others, especially with the varying weights and driving styles on here.
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Old 08-07-2012, 09:04 AM   #269
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Do it Carmi, I need help setting up my suspension with street tires.
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Old 08-07-2012, 09:21 AM   #270
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^^^ u already know i'm there for you, bro. K, I will do my best. As md05 said(what's your first name, dude lol). It's going to be tough. I will begin today, just finished my finals.
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Old 08-07-2012, 09:24 AM   #271
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Quote:
Originally Posted by soon2bblackongold View Post
Do you guys think I should make a thread on this? (drag race suspension setup). We've clogged up J's thread, quite a bit.

If anyone wants help or just an idea to bounce off, feel free to pm me. I'm not the best mechanic and know little about tuning, but I do know this stuff.

It's EASILY the most overlooked part of our cars, and it actually makes me sick when I see the transmission and clutch struggle because the suspension is at the incorrect setting. It's very obvious to the trained eye.

Doing this will help 60's, but more importantly, it will make the car easier to drive.
I'd be up for helping with that. Suspension setup (Drag/Road Race/Autocross) is an area of expertise for me as well. We seem to have a lot of the same ideas.

Any way we could bring what we have here already to the new thread...or should we re-post it?
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Old 08-07-2012, 09:27 AM   #272
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Originally Posted by Squidz View Post
I'd be up for helping with that. Suspension setup (Drag/Road Race/Autocross) is an area of expertise for me as well. We seem to have a lot of the same ideas.

Any way we could bring what we have here already to the new thread...or should we re-post it?
Yah, I was going to start with what was already posted in this thread. I definitely was thinking you were going to be THE help, I was about to pm you . I was going to basically (the new part) tell folks how they should be adjusting.
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Old 08-07-2012, 09:48 AM   #273
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Any information on your launch control? Sorry if this has been covered. I failed at reading the 18 pages of this.
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Old 08-07-2012, 09:53 AM   #274
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Originally Posted by DSRX2005 View Post
Sorry if this has been covered. I failed at reading the 18 pages of this.
Edit your options to have 50 posts per page.

User cp(top left corner), edit options, "number of posts to show per page."
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Old 08-07-2012, 10:49 AM   #275
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As md05 said, this will be picked apart by the doubters if squidz and me aren't careful. Please be patient to all those that want the writeup, my last thread on here trying to help people, didn't go over well... So squidz and me will take a few days or more, go over stuff, and release the best possible writeup to help subi drag racers. I have a lot of theory, but it seems that squidz experience in addition to my theory, will make one good thread.

Carmi
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