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Old 09-18-2012, 08:26 PM   #2926
xluben
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2011boostdwrx View Post
I think just based on my two engine failures and now STI 6spd swap, i should have went with the STI. That said if i would have left stage2 i may disagree, the WRX seemed the right choice at the time. I had no idea all the problems the car was going to have by modding past stage-2.
The STI would have had the same chances of an engine failure. They are basically the same motor and they have the same problems.

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Originally Posted by PearlRex11 View Post
Were you able to get them fixed under warranty?
No he was not. His car was modified, so it was not a warranty issue.
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Old 09-18-2012, 10:53 PM   #2927
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Yikes, mine is modded but I have a friend who is a master mechanic at Subaru. They have no mod list on my car even though it is stage 2 and taken it to them for the oil change service plan lol.
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Old 09-18-2012, 11:25 PM   #2928
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Originally Posted by PearlRex11 View Post
Yikes, mine is modded but I have a friend who is a master mechanic at Subaru. They have no mod list on my car even though it is stage 2 and taken it to them for the oil change service plan lol.
That's fine for you but I find that to be rather irresponsible and selfish. People that try to warranty modified cars are the reason that dealers and manufacturers give all warranty claims such a hard time. The cost also gets passed on to the rest of the consumer population indirectly. Subaru probably replaced XXX number of motors that owners blew up and that eventually drives the cost up for all of their new vehicles.

I have no problem with getting warranty work done for something unrelated but if you have power mods or engine management changes I honestly think Subaru SHOULD deny a warranty claim. It's just not fair to them. Everyone seems to thunk they're getting screwed by the dealer but it's probably just as often that someone blows up their car and then returns it to stock to try and mislead the dealer into performing a repair.

Sorry for the rant. Nothing against you personally. I just think you have to pay to play. If you mod and something goes wrong, then take the responsibility.
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Old 09-18-2012, 11:26 PM   #2929
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xluben View Post
The STI would have had the same chances of an engine failure. They are basically the same motor and they have the same problems.
+1. If anything, the STI's have more documented failures than the WRX when it comes to the motor.
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Old 09-19-2012, 01:20 AM   #2930
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I think the reality, for many of us at least, is we didn't know what we were getting into when we bought our cars. I ended up with a WRX because that was the fiscally responsible choice for me but I bought the car with the intention of doing stuff to it. Not unlike the fabled Xluben at the beginning of his car modding adventure, I have no idea how my car will end up, I am having fun with it and I will see where it goes. STI/WRX really doesn't matter, I mod what I have to make it my own unique vehicle. Would I love to have a tranny that could safely handle 1000 whp sure, but since I don't I will deal with it if it becomes an issue.
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Old 09-19-2012, 02:16 AM   #2931
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xluben
That's fine for you but I find that to be rather irresponsible and selfish. People that try to warranty modified cars are the reason that dealers and manufacturers give all warranty claims such a hard time. The cost also gets passed on to the rest of the consumer population indirectly. Subaru probably replaced XXX number of motors that owners blew up and that eventually drives the cost up for all of their new vehicles.

I have no problem with getting warranty work done for something unrelated but if you have power mods or engine management changes I honestly think Subaru SHOULD deny a warranty claim. It's just not fair to them. Everyone seems to thunk they're getting screwed by the dealer but it's probably just as often that someone blows up their car and then returns it to stock to try and mislead the dealer into performing a repair.

Sorry for the rant. Nothing against you personally. I just think you have to pay to play. If you mod and something goes wrong, then take the responsibility.
You are entitled to your opinion, mainly what I'm worried about is them denying something stupid that is unrelated but have them pass it off that it is related. I'm at stage 2 ots with a catted dp, nothing crazy at all. Just don't want to get screwed over if something breaks that I haven't done anything to cause. I could see if I was running a catless dp with a peptone, etc. imo the car should be able to handle stage 2 if their are no defects in the car.
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Old 09-19-2012, 04:40 AM   #2932
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You say just stage 2 like its no big deal... Most tunes up the boost, make the timing more aggressive, and run toward the lean side to maximize power which is bad for your motor. Catless or not You're more likely to break something. Don't expect Subaru to fix your car after you changed so many things. Just take it easy and you should be fine but I suggest getting a custom tune done because usually ots maps usually aren't that great. Depends on who's map it is but open source is the way to go IMO. Not trying to argue just saying that stage 2 is a pretty big change

Last edited by Gregor91; 09-19-2012 at 05:10 AM.
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Old 09-19-2012, 08:04 AM   #2933
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Not simply whether it is a big change or not, but it's the fact that it's a change at all that matters, IMO. There are dozens or hundreds of parameters that have been changed from what Subaru intended. They should not have to warranty it if something happens, because it is not in the condition it left the factory in. You may think you're doing very safe things, but they're still significant changes and totally uncontrolled by the manufacturer. If a failure occurs, then it is completely unfair to hold them accountable, when you have changed things out of their control.

I know this is pretty pointless to argue, because no one ever changes their mind. But in my opinion it is completely wrong to modify your car and then try to have warranty work completed (especially by misleading the dealer into thinking no modifications had been done). You might think you didn't do anything wrong, but in the end you're really hurting Subaru's bottom line, and that eventually gets passed on to everyone else by way of higher prices. If you do modify your car, you should be up front about it. If they choose to deny your claim then pay up.
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Old 09-19-2012, 09:06 AM   #2934
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xluben View Post
If you do modify your car, you should be up front about it. If they choose to deny your claim then pay up.
+1 You pay to play.

I have heard of SOA warrantying cars that were modified, but usually the owner had a great relationship with the dealership and everything was upfront and honest. That is definitely not the norm and should not be expected. If you decide to modify your car at all...you need to be prepared to pay when something goes wrong. Period.

However, I have never heard of a warranty claim for a window motor being denied because of engine modifications. Your warranty is never voided from modding. They can only deny claims if they deem the modification was part of the source for the failure. Logically, that takes them off the hook if something went wrong. And yes...even a stage 1 flash counts.
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Old 09-19-2012, 09:23 AM   #2935
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^bingo!

With the current 11/12 WRX vs STI I can see how it's a tough call between the two especially considering how much closer the two cars are than they were in the past.

Look back to the 04/05 years when it was 2.0L with TD04 vs 2.5L with vf39 plus the brakes, trans, interior, and all the upgrades. There was a huge difference between the two and the STI was significantly nicer.

I'd argue that it's not so true anymore. Both get a 2.5L which is basically the same motor internally. Your STI isn't going to make any more power than the WRX before it blows up. The way I look at it the only thing you really pay for on today's STI is the trans and brakes. For the price difference or less you can absolutely make the WRX just as good.

When I had my 04 WRX I had both a 6spd swap and then later a PPG 5spd box and hands down the car was faster with the 5spd. The 6spd felt a little better and was definitely more fun to drive but in a straight line the longer gearing was a huge advantage.
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Old 09-19-2012, 09:45 AM   #2936
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Agreed, I have been through a ton of money with my car because of failures, all my fault!

I still think there is a considerable advantage to the STI versus the WRX even on the 2011 model. Brakes, Trans, Diffs, Axles, hubs, suspension and suspension components. Yes the overall straight line performance may be similarm but a much large gap in what I mentioned above.
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Old 09-19-2012, 09:49 AM   #2937
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Originally Posted by 2011boostdwrx View Post
I still think there is a considerable advantage to the STI versus the WRX even on the 2011 model. Brakes, Trans, Diffs, Axles, hubs, suspension and suspension components. Yes the overall straight line performance may be similarm but a much large gap in what I mentioned above.
I agree. People always say brakes and transmission, but forget everything else that is upgraded and makes a big difference.
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Old 09-19-2012, 10:00 AM   #2938
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Originally Posted by ofspunk7 View Post
I agree. People always say brakes and transmission, but forget everything else that is upgraded and makes a big difference.
And half of the people that are on this board modify suspension and other components on the car. The stock suspension on the STI is no better than the WRX...just a little different spring rate. The sway bars are basically the same...just a little bit thicker.

From a performance perspective, those parts really need to be replaced with aftermarket options regardless of STI vs. WRX. When I purchased my car, I actually made a spreadsheet of what I would be paying extra for by purchasing a STI and what I would be modifying. As it turned out, I was paying extra for brakes, tranny and diffs. That was it. Everything else I was planning on changing and therefore...paying extra for nothing.

You do not get a radically better performing suspension with the STI over the current WRX. The axles and hubs on the WRX can also handle a lot of abuse. The big WRX power builds are not having hub and axle issues...just a harder time finding 5x100 wheels that should be made easier with the introduction of the FR-S/BRZ.
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Old 09-19-2012, 10:26 AM   #2939
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rsutton, I am referring unmolested model to model, not modifications etc. Yes we could mod the WRX to be very close to s stock STI suspension wise, the trans and all supporting components are far better than the WRX.
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Old 09-19-2012, 10:28 AM   #2940
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Originally Posted by 2011boostdwrx View Post
rsutton, I am referring unmolested model to model, not modifications etc. Yes we could mod the WRX to be very close to s stock STI suspension wise, the trans and all supporting components are far better than the WRX.
That was actually my point though...the suspension components on the STI are not that much better. Struts are the same with a little bit stiffer spring rate and marginally thicker bars. Stock for stock...the WRX and STI feel about the same.
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Old 09-19-2012, 10:31 AM   #2941
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The point is that anyone who is going to track the car on a regular basis is probably going to swap out the springs, shocks, sway bars, end links, wheels, tires, etc, etc. So counting those as something you're willing to pay more for from the factory doesn't make any sense. From that standpoint, you would actually want the cheaper stuff, since it is less money wasted when you replace it anyways.

For a solely street driven car (that is not going to be modified in that regard), you could make more of an argument for some of the components you're getting, but in reality, you'll have a hard time pushing the WRX past it's limits without doing things that are completely reckless (for public roads). And in the case where you do push the WRX past it's limits, the STI won't be far behind.
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Old 09-19-2012, 10:35 AM   #2942
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Xluben and Gregor i appreciate this conversation staying civil, nasioc asking with other forums can become a pissing match quickly. I agree with you to a certain extent and I do respect your opinion, I've been following this build thread since I bought my car. I think one thing that is overlooked is the fact that the stock tune is crap on these cars, which is from what I understand is due to EPA not Subaru. Either way, I'm not keeping the stock tune to have a clear conscience. It reminds me of the rx8 issues where if you follow the manufacturers service requirements you end up with a motor that will get you through your warranty period but you end up with a (long term) unreliable car, not worth it IMO. You are right, I will not change my mind, just some friendly debating, I am a master debater.
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Old 09-19-2012, 10:45 AM   #2943
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I disagree that the sti has much that is far better than the wrx besides the tranny. I do believe the struts along with the springs are better, but barely. If I had an sti would change those out for sure so it would be pointless to me. from sway is the same rear is like 3-4mm bigger, I know I switched the rear out on mine and left the front alone, would like to go a little bigger still though in the rear. All of the other suspension differences I feel make no perceivable difference when your driving the car.
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Old 09-19-2012, 10:49 AM   #2944
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i love my WRX...and as far as those payments above? what the hell were you guys buying?

i financed 26200 got 2.9% and i pay $406 a month. lol, i think i may have put 1k down.

anyway. yea i changed most of whats on the car, but honestly would have done the same with the STi.
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Old 09-19-2012, 10:50 AM   #2945
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PearlRex11 View Post
Xluben and Gregor i appreciate this conversation staying civil, nasioc asking with other forums can become a pissing match quickly. I agree with you to a certain extent and I do respect your opinion, I've been following this build thread since I bought my car. I think one thing that is overlooked is the fact that the stock tune is crap on these cars, which is from what I understand is due to EPA not Subaru. Either way, I'm not keeping the stock tune to have a clear conscience. It reminds me of the rx8 issues where if you follow the manufacturers service requirements you end up with a motor that will get you through your warranty period but you end up with a (long term) unreliable car, not worth it IMO. You are right, I will not change my mind, just some friendly debating, I am a master debater.
I agree with this. I would not want the stock tune on my car. BUT from a manufacturer standpoint, there is absolutely no way in hell I would warranty something that has had literally hundreds of the critical control parameters modified from their factory specifications. Subaru has absolutely no way of knowing if the modified parts or tune caused the issue unless they spend thousands of dollars investigating each case. They should not be obligated to do this, and also should not be obligated to repair something that was operated in an unknown condition (ie. modified).

Sorry, but this is my opinion, and it's based on my experiences. The worst thing is when a customer returns something that is broken, but was obviously modified from it's original state, and then wants a free repair or replacement. Usually it's very laughable when they claim how they have "improved" it in some way. I assume Subaru feels the same way, when someone cranks up the boost (whether Stage 1 or Stage 2), the car breaks, and then they claim they were just "improving" the stock tune.
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Old 09-19-2012, 10:51 AM   #2946
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Edit: that does makes sense, this is the decision I went with and I feel that IMO it is justified, I understand everyone may not agree with me but its what makes the most sense to me to do.


Forgot to mention, I wish I had the sti tmic as well.

Last edited by PearlRex11; 09-19-2012 at 11:00 AM.
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Old 09-19-2012, 10:55 AM   #2947
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xluben View Post
I agree with this. I would not want the stock tune on my car. BUT from a manufacturer standpoint, there is absolutely no way in hell I would warranty something that has had literally hundreds of the critical control parameters modified from their factory specifications. Subaru has absolutely no way of knowing if the modified parts or tune caused the issue unless they spend thousands of dollars investigating each case. They should not be obligated to do this, and also should not be obligated to repair something that was operated in an unknown condition (ie. modified).

Sorry, but this is my opinion, and it's based on my experiences. The worst thing is when a customer returns something that is broken, but was obviously modified from it's original state, and then wants a free repair or replacement. Usually it's very laughable when they claim how they have "improved" it in some way. I assume Subaru feels the same way, when someone cranks up the boost (whether Stage 1 or Stage 2), the car breaks, and then they claim they were just "improving" the stock tune.

This is why people are having a hard time getting their claims approved when the car is completely stock. I know someone that did all exterior mods, nothing to the motor, not even a Stage 1 flash. Cylinder 4 went (surprise) and Subaru denied his claim. It now has a fully built motor from IAG.
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Old 09-19-2012, 11:27 AM   #2948
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That just sounds like a horrible Subaru dealership and an owner who didn't choose to fight that and go to SOA himself.

If anything I think it justifies my point even more as to why you shouldn't keep the factory tune. Its your problem after the warranty is up, not Subaru anymore. I will take the chance with the tune and hopefully it will pay off in the longevity of the car.
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Old 09-19-2012, 11:30 AM   #2949
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Originally Posted by PearlRex11 View Post
That just sounds like a horrible Subaru dealership and an owner who didn't choose to fight that and go to SOA himself.
The only reason he has to fight is because people do performance modifications and then try to get warranty work done. It really is ruining it for everyone else when people do this.
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Old 09-19-2012, 11:47 AM   #2950
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Your forgetting his main issue though. The car had problems with cylinder 4 and it was stock. one of the main guys that does Cobb's ots tunes showed me horrible examples of stock tunes that were on some of the models from just a few years ago. Its one of those catch 44s.
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