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Old 11-22-2012, 06:37 PM   #3926
2011rex18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xluben View Post
Lol. Delusional fanboy.
Don't think that's very accurate i see ur pts but sorry ms3 is not very good lookin from side or back profile and just dot think ride quality is as nice
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Old 11-22-2012, 06:40 PM   #3927
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I also agree with pearlrwrx
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Old 11-22-2012, 07:20 PM   #3928
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The MS3 has a much better stock suspension. This is shown by all of the track comparisons where the lower powered, FWD Mazda puts down better times.

The direct injection does lead to dirty valves. It doesn't seem all that difficult to clean them though. We'll probably do that soon. And once the EGR block off is in place it should be Mich of an issue. With the WRX pistons cracking and glass tranny I don't think I'd really consider a valve cleaning "less reliable" for the Mazda.

While the direct injection implementation isn't perfect, it seems pretty clear that it's the future. From a performance and fuel efficiency standpoint it is much better. Everything will be going that way soon enough. The dual (direct and port) system on the BRZ seems like a nice compromise.

Unfortunate as it may seem, the EJ25 is going to be a dinosaur pretty soon. Sure it will still perform well but once the direct injection systems get more aftermarket support I think they're going to kill port injection in every way (power, efficiency, etc).

I think it's funny that a Subaru owner is too elitist to allow a different make or model at their meet. That is hilarious. That's just the kind of meet I don't want to go to. I've been to various meets and the Subaru crew around here is great. They'd never be too stuck up to allow someone else to join unless they're being an asshat.
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Old 11-22-2012, 07:21 PM   #3929
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Originally Posted by 2011rex18 View Post
Don't think that's very accurate i see ur pts but sorry ms3 is not very good lookin from side or back profile and just dot think ride quality is as nice
Looks are subjective. I also like the look of the WRX better. And it does have better ride qualtiy too. That's why it's so terrible at the track. Lol.
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Old 11-22-2012, 07:25 PM   #3930
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I love the WRX and Ms3. But the WRX is larger and more useful everyday. AwD :P
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Old 11-22-2012, 08:38 PM   #3931
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I did state that the ms3 owner is my friend. I dont have anything against him or his car, "I" personally wouldn't want to be the evo or ms3 guy at a Subaru meet or an all Subaru car show. I would personally feel awkward. Hope that is clearer to understand. I do welcome any car, it just wouldn't be some thing I would want to do.
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Old 11-22-2012, 08:45 PM   #3932
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PearlRex11 View Post
The direct injection is terrible. Not sure if its improved on the newer body. My friends has issues and needs to have the intake manifold taken off and cleaned up at only 30k. Cobb has a service bulletin on it. I will stay clear of them even though my awd isn't needed in southern California. I feel that the wrx/sti is way more reliable. I also wouldn't want to be the "tag along" Mazda that's hanging out at the Subaru meets, like some of them do over here. Nothing against them hanging out with us, I would just want to hang out with other Mazda owners if I owned a Mazda. I really enjoy the Subaru community.

Think its this one,

https://forums.cobbtuning.com/forums...ulletin-Update
How about people who enjoy cars (and own different cars) should be able to hang out together? So because I have car x, I can only enjoy car meets with people with same car x? And I will be labeled as a"tag along" otherwise? Ridiculous. When I used to go to meets, it was really nice to see other brands and what can be done with them...

By the way, I dont want to make this into a MS3 vs WRX argument but after owning stage 2 WRX for 3 years and now a MS3 I would like to help you getting out from underneath your rock.

The dealer invoice on a 2012 MS3 with tech package is 25.5k which essentially leaves you with no more option to select. You get A LOT OF CAR for this price. Engine wise, the DIT 2.3L is way more advanced than the 10+ old technology in the WRX and delivers power in a more linear fashion, with more torque and better gaz mileage (I got 28 mpg on the highway). The MS3 has actually a decent A/F ratio and power/torque curves (see COBB dyno database) out of the box throughout the whole RPM range . The 6 speed is great with shorter throws than my OEM STS in the WRX...

Suspension is really good in the MS3, I give full credit here to mazda, I would say it's close to a STI/EVO X in terms of responsiveness and the car has a very "crisp" front end which will be great for auto-x. Definitely much better than the WRX. For those who complain about torque steer, you are either driving with one hand at 12 o'clock or you need to go to the gym to improve your forearm strength because the torque steer is really not that bad. In fact, MS3 ECU limits boost in the first 3 gears and will also limit boost if an aggressive steering angle is detected to limit wheelspin. Also, the front LSD actually does a pretty good job. The traction will never be as good as AWD but it really is not horrible.

You also get a lot of nice featured like Bi-xenon headlights with adaptive front lighting system which pivots the headlights into the corner to improve lighting, keyless entry, keyless ignition, 10 speaker bose system and a rattle free nicely put together interior with bolstered seats. Honestly, I thought I traded a 6+ year old car when I got into the MS3, Subaru's interiors are way behind.

The sad truth is that the WRX is getting outdated more and more with every year and is less appealing at their current price point. The AWD is really only helpful if you plan to drive in the winter through non plowed roads or do rally cross. With good winter tires, plenty of people do just fine with FWD or RWD cars. I loved my WRX in the snow and I will miss it but the open diffs did spoil it for me a little. The STI is at least 10k more than the MS3 and still comes with the same old interior, rattles and equipment. It does have the amazing Subaru drivertrain, suspension and breaks but unless you turn it into a track car, are you ready to drop all this money? The MS3 is a bargain that I could not ignore.




MS3 (2010) (3,243 lbs)
60-0 mph (ft.) 113
Slalom, 6 x 100 ft. (mph) 72.4
Skid pad, 200-ft. diameter (lateral g) 0.89

2011 STI sedan (3,408 pounds)

60-0 mph (ft) 112
Slalom 6 x 100 ft (mph) 70.3
Skid pad, 200-ft diameter (lateral g) 0.89

2011 WRX sedan (3185 lbs)
60-0 mph (ft) 114
Slalom 6 x 100 ft (mph) 68.8
Skid pad, 200-ft diameter (lateral g) 0.90

Last edited by moonrider_99; 11-22-2012 at 08:51 PM.
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Old 11-22-2012, 09:11 PM   #3933
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The wrx being awd isn't exactly an advantage on a dry race track, it would probably pull better lap times than the ms3 if it wasn't lugging around 2 extra diffs, axles and a drive shaft. That said, the ms3 seems like it had more effort put into it and its a more grown up looking car inside and out.
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Old 11-22-2012, 11:11 PM   #3934
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I think you are still misunderstanding. "I" would feel like a tag along. I don't see them as tag alongs. I think you are being a little too sensitive. Let's stop this discussion on xlubens thread, didn't mean to hurt anybodies feelings.
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Old 11-22-2012, 11:56 PM   #3935
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I'm not mad about it. I just think the view is very one sided from this forum's point of view (obviously, being Subaru owners). That Mazda would probably stomp most of the 2011+ WRX guys that follow this thread. It's pretty quick from a roll or on the road course, but people are so quick to bash on it (usually because of looks, lol).

Choosing a car is a lot personal preference. There are good and bad sides to both cars. I think the Mazda is a much better car out of the box (other than the AWD if you really need/want it). It's faster, nicer (IMO) and cheaper. But there is way more high power aftermarket support for Subaru's.

And the Subaru community is better. In general. MSF is just dumb, lol.
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Old 11-23-2012, 12:06 AM   #3936
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Agreed. My friend with his gt mustang used to do the "my car is faster from a roll" thing, I don't agree with that. If we have to lug around an extra diff, then we should get to use it. Therefore, I don't believe in racing from a roll. imo its like saying "my Jeep is faster then your wrx, if we are rock crawling" lol. You get the point.
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Old 11-23-2012, 12:10 AM   #3937
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What's with the WRX vs Ms3 debate... it's all preference. Also, stop bringing up track times, skid pad data, and all that nonsense. Most of us don't race. Buy what you like and respect what you didn't buy.


I like the Ms3... not a common car :P. But I've adored the WRX since I was a lad. My only problem with the new Ms3 is the styling. The side angle looks wrong. It doesn't "flow smoothly" and looks goofy to me.
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Old 11-23-2012, 12:17 AM   #3938
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PearlRex11 View Post
Agreed. My friend with his gt mustang used to do the "my car is faster from a roll" thing, I don't agree with that. If we have to lug around an extra diff, then we should get to use it. Therefore, I don't believe in racing from a roll. imo its like saying "my Jeep is faster then your wrx, if we are rock crawling" lol. You get the point.
I see what you're saying think that logic only works if you live your life a 1/4 mile at a time. On a road course or in real world use (on the street) it is a faster car. I've probably only launched my car a couple dozen times (if that) the whole time I've owned it. But I've ripped through the gears from a roll hundreds of times.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Navendra94 View Post
What's with the WRX vs Ms3 debate... it's all preference. Also, stop bringing up track times, skid pad data, and all that nonsense. Most of us don't race. Buy what you like and respect what you didn't buy.


I like the Ms3... not a common car :P. But I've adored the WRX since I was a lad. My only problem with the new Ms3 is the styling. The side angle looks wrong. It doesn't "flow smoothly" and looks goofy to me.
The track times and skid pad are just a way to quantify it being a faster car. Those stats will correlate to on the road speed/performance. Other than from a dig, the MS3 is better/faster in pretty much every way.

I do agree on looks. The MS3 is OK. I like it better than the 08-10 WRX but not the 2011+
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Old 11-23-2012, 12:27 AM   #3939
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It is all on preference but as far as I'm concerned Mazda fell off after the 93-95 rx7
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Old 11-23-2012, 12:32 AM   #3940
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It is all on preference but as far as I'm concerned Mazda fell off after the 93-95 rx7
That's about when Subaru came out with the EJ25. And they've been using it ever since! Haha.
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Old 11-23-2012, 12:41 AM   #3941
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I would like to see the next rotary from yhem
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Old 11-23-2012, 12:58 AM   #3942
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I do agree that di is the future, I hope Mazda is able to improve on it though. An intake manifold should not need to be removed and cleaned with a gun cleaning kit and denatured alcohol at 30k. I give props to any company that can put the same motor on their cars for this long and even do record sales like Subaru has done. I hope Subaru is able to do the same with their di as well. I had considered getting an rx8 before I bought my wrx, haven't heard very good things about the rotary motor in them though, and every used one I test drove had major engine problems at only 30k or so.
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Old 11-23-2012, 12:54 PM   #3943
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I would like to see the next rotary from yhem
I had an RX8 and the only bad thing about the car was the engine. Mine was reliable as hell and was very fun to hit 9k rpm with. The problem was that such a small motor can't get the car moving from a stop without spinning fast.

You end up running the motor to high RPMs every time you leave a stop light or sign, if you try to be conservative and shift early you end up being the slowest car in traffic to accelerate.

Awesome car, especially for driving where you can keep up your momentum like at a race track, but for a daily driver I would not have a rotary again.
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Old 11-23-2012, 12:59 PM   #3944
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Xluben should of just gotten a ms3 so we dont have to be jealous of his wrx! Lol....j/k.
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Old 11-23-2012, 01:07 PM   #3945
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It would have been my too choice, until I decided AWD was a must have. Then the WRX was the winner. But this was all while I planned on keeping them stock. Lol.
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Old 11-23-2012, 01:36 PM   #3946
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Good thing you went with the Subaru easier to upgrage
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Old 11-23-2012, 03:44 PM   #3947
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Funny thing with all this MS3 talk, I was just on the website the other night pricing them out. I'm not really sure I'm keeping my car and was checking out some different options. I definitely like the older gen body style waaaay better, but as it's been said, you do get a lot of car for the money but I don't know if I can live without all wheel drive anymore. I was also looking into the darkside (EVO's) but I don't know if I could do it.. The Subaru community is awesome.
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Old 11-23-2012, 07:03 PM   #3948
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Also keep on mind that there is a lot more flexibility in pricing in the MS3. It was several thousand difference between an MS3 ans base WRX when my brother was looking.
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Old 11-23-2012, 11:05 PM   #3949
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Quote:
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Here's another lower shot:



I ran the vacuum lines across the engine bay and through the large grommet in the fender (along with all the other wiring I have done). Plenty of room in there. The MBC was mounted into a hole that was already existing under the dash. I don't know why it was there, but it was a perfect fit for the bolt.

I was a bit worried that the extra vacuum lines would cause problems, but I haven't noticed any issues so far. Spool and boost control seem to work just fine, but I would still like to pull a log to confirm. The only oddity is that you can hear the MBC venting air once the ball/spring opens up (as it should). It's just a slight hiss and by that time the EWG is open so it doesn't matter anyways!
I wanted to follow up on this. For reference I keep track of my MBC setting by counting the number of 1/3 turns (it is 1/3 of a rotation each time the GrimmSpeed logo goes past).

Before I did this, I had the MBC in the engine bay, next to the OEM EBCS location. This uses about a foot of vacuum line to and from the MBC. Turning the MBC all the way out would get me as low as about 20psi (close to spring pressure). It took 10-12 "1/3" turns to get up to 27psi.

When I moved the MBC into the cabin I probably added close to 10 feet in total vacuum lines as well as two inline connection fittings. Then I could only get as low as about 23psi and it only needed 6-8 "1/3" turns to get to 27psi.

So I needed a lower spring pressure in the MBC in order to reach the same boost pressure. This tells me that either; the added volume of lines were taking more air to pressurise them, I had a leak, or I had a partial blockage. Something was making it harder for the pressure signal to make it to the wastegate.

I wasn't too worried because spool seemed the same and it was controlling boost fine but eventually I got curious so I did some logs and then switched back and did some more logs so I could get a back to back comparison. I found the spool was identical.

This was a while ago and I never got a chance to switch back until last night. Once I had it back in the cabin I found that the lowest boost I could hit was 25psi and it only took 3 "1/3" turns to reach 27psi. Something was not right. I. Tried redoing the zip ties on the connections but there was no change.

So I ended up moving the MBC back into the engine bay. Spring pressure is back to 20psi and it takes 10 "1/3" turns to hit 27psi. Just like it was before.

My conclusion is that the in cabin MBC works but it really must be done eight to be without problems I think that if you use continuous lengths of tubing (to minimize leaks), keep the hoses as short as possible, and make sure there are no kinks, then you will be fine. But in practice it is a bit tricky to get it working as well as if you locate it close by the turbo in the engine bay.
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Old 11-24-2012, 11:55 PM   #3950
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I decided to do some boost vs. power comparisons tonight (just for fun). First I started with a few logs with the MBC backed out all the way. The car was hitting about 20psi and was basically flat to redline. Pulling them up in Virtual Dyno showed nice consistent results!



Because that looked good, I decided to turn the MBC up halfway to where it normally is at. I did a couple logs and it peaked close to 24psi, with a little taper down to around 22psi. Then to finish it off I turned the MBC up to my normal spot and it was just barely touching 27psi and then tapering down close to 24-25psi.



Looking at the boost and torque (for the 24psi and 27psi graphs especially) you can see that I probably did have a slight uphill for run 1 and slight downhill for run 2 of each set. This slightly affected spool and peak torque. But overall the results are very consistent.



And here is the plot with just one run from each boost setting. Solid, incremental gains with each change in boost. This is a nice, easy way to see how increasing the boost can really bump up the power (assuming the turbo is still able to flow enough air). It also shows why people running this turbo (or similar ones) at lower boost will definitely see lower power.
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