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Old 01-26-2012, 12:00 PM   #151
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^ your header is patented? what exactly about it is patented?
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Old 01-26-2012, 12:16 PM   #152
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Specific aspects of the design, geometry and use.
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Old 01-26-2012, 12:19 PM   #153
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isnt it kind of pointless to go through getting a patent for that? anyone can just slightly change the geometry.

also, i swear ive seen a header like yours before, i think on ebay. im trying to find it right now.
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Old 01-26-2012, 01:32 PM   #154
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isnt it kind of pointless to go through getting a patent for that? anyone can just slightly change the geometry.

also, i swear ive seen a header like yours before, i think on ebay. im trying to find it right now.
Not at all, and getting around the patent would require changing more than just geometry. Enough, that IMO it would compromise performance of the setup, at which point you're back at the traditional/common JDM knock-off style that's been around for 15+ years.
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Old 01-26-2012, 01:43 PM   #155
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ive always been curious about patents and how strict that actually were. are you telling me i can go patent every up pipe size and shape and then no one else can make a subaru up pipe?

found it



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Old 01-26-2012, 01:59 PM   #156
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That's a tri-Y, and his design is 4-into-1. Totally different.

That said, I have my doubts as to whether anything about KB's header design could be patented. No offense intended - it just doesn't align with what I know about the patent system. I don't claim to be an expert, but I just had one awarded a couple weeks ago, (I share it with 3 other co-workers) and I have four more in the pipeline.
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Old 01-26-2012, 02:03 PM   #157
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The Fujitsubo is the closest that I know of (similar to top pic), but the tubing angles and collectors are very different.

A lot of it depends on how the patent is written, vague or detailed, that determines how arguable an infringement is. I've got my name on several other patents, but most of those were in designing high speed industrial automation (my career previous to this). I'd like to think I've done it enough times to know what not to do Spent a considerable amount of that time working with laser and medical industries where companies push (sometimes beyond) the limits of infringement.

That bottom one is not even close.

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Old 01-26-2012, 02:11 PM   #158
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That said, I have my doubts as to whether anything about KB's header design could be patented. No offense intended - it just doesn't align with what I know about the patent system.
I shared those doubts as well. Spent a L-O-N-G time searching for prior art and (suprisingly) there just isn't any. No offense taken.
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Old 01-26-2012, 02:12 PM   #159
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What about those people who compete in sports where they don't see high RPMs all too often?

RallyCross, Autocross, etc. When they spend most of their time below 5500 RPM. A bump of even 10 more ft. lbs down low for me (in rallyx) would be welcomed from a header even if I had to give up some top end. I'm not running a big turbo either, so it would be further realized.

Just a thought to throw at you.
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Old 01-26-2012, 02:24 PM   #160
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I understand why Killer B wants a patent. It’s not to stop someone from making their own header but to stop someone from replicating theirs. I‘ve seen some fabricators who went out and bought an APS header and started duplicating it for people for a largely reduced price. They are completely independent working under the table. That is the whole point of a patent but to protect on a larger scale from large manufactures or businesses. For a business owner, patents aren’t too expensive compared to a business type budget. As a business owner I would want that kind of protection since you have something in stone as well as your original patent date. In the end it’s not going to stop someone from replicating it like my scenario above but it prevents other large businesses from duplicating it in mass quantities. I don’t know enough about international laws to say it can protect you from Chinese knock offs on ebay, but it’s better than not having a patent. More than likely KillerB will write up the geometry with design blue prints or schematics to go along with their patent write up. The patent write up its self protects the geometry as well as make it vague enough where someone can’t add a V-band somewhere or a different flange to bypass the patent. I think it’s a good idea to protect production pieces since some protection is better than nothing.
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Old 01-26-2012, 02:36 PM   #161
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Quote:
Originally Posted by omahasubaru View Post
What about those people who compete in sports where they don't see high RPMs all too often?

RallyCross, Autocross, etc. When they spend most of their time below 5500 RPM. A bump of even 10 more ft. lbs down low for me (in rallyx) would be welcomed from a header even if I had to give up some top end. I'm not running a big turbo either, so it would be further realized.

Just a thought to throw at you.
omahasubaru, I have zero details about your setup, but check out THIS REVIEW done by YimiSport. They saw +27WHP and much better responsiveness.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spike_916 View Post
I understand why Killer B wants a patent. Itís not to stop someone from making their own header but to stop someone from replicating theirs. IĎve seen some fabricators who went out and bought an APS header and started duplicating it for people for a largely reduced price. They are completely independent working under the table. That is the whole point of a patent but to protect on a larger scale from large manufactures or businesses. For a business owner, patents arenít too expensive compared to a business type budget. As a business owner I would want that kind of protection since you have something in stone as well as your original patent date. In the end itís not going to stop someone from replicating it like my scenario above but it prevents other large businesses from duplicating it in mass quantities. I donít know enough about international laws to say it can protect you from Chinese knock offs on ebay, but itís better than not having a patent. More than likely KillerB will write up the geometry with design blue prints or schematics to go along with their patent write up. The patent write up its self protects the geometry as well as make it vague enough where someone canít add a V-band somewhere or a different flange to bypass the patent. I think itís a good idea to protect production pieces since some protection is better than nothing.
^ Very well said.
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Old 01-26-2012, 02:38 PM   #162
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Ok, I'll shoot you a PM on the patent details, so as to not step on toes. I'm really looking for my personal car and for their TA car.
Both are race cars, so fitment isn't going to be an issue for them.

PM on the way.

-Micah

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Old 01-26-2012, 03:42 PM   #163
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I'm just trying to play devils advocate on both extremes here.

If moving the collector a 1/8-1/4" avoids patent infringement then it seems kinda pointless. Or changing the pipe diameter 1/8 bigger or smaller? Or changing the vband to 3 bolt? Or changing the piping thickness

And the other extreme, whats stopping people from patenting every possible combination? Can u patent 1,000,000 diff Subaru header designs and then no one else would be able to make a header? I imagine cost is the issue there...

Also, like someone else mentioned, how do these laws apply to other countries? What's gonna stop ssi from copying the design?
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Old 01-26-2012, 04:22 PM   #164
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^^^I was told I could patent the destroked engine however it would be worthless (and a waste of a large chunk of change) because specifics could be tweaked slightly and not be an issue. Anything vague enough to cover tweaks couldn't be done.

You can enforce patents in other countries is iffy. I know K&N's recently won their suit with Spectre...however thinking about it, I'm not sure if Spectre is a US company just having the filters made in China
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Old 01-26-2012, 04:37 PM   #165
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Quote:
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I'm just trying to play devils advocate on both extremes here.

If moving the collector a 1/8-1/4" avoids patent infringement then it seems kinda pointless. Or changing the pipe diameter 1/8 bigger or smaller? Or changing the vband to 3 bolt? Or changing the piping thickness
You're making it out like it's more than what it is. Patents are generally not THAT detailed otherwise they'd be useless because of the reasons you mention. They protect a design or range in design or specifics and/or all of the above depending on how it's written. If it's not written well then then it can be fairly useless. When done well, you need to come up with another way of doing what you want to do, or pay royalties, or buy it out.
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Old 01-26-2012, 04:57 PM   #166
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It just seems weird to me that you're even able to patent such a thing.

Take a tbe for example.....can you patent one? The top flange location is set in stone via the turbo location, the tranny mount is set, the exhaust hangers are set, the muffler location is set, etc etc. Basically the mounting points make a rough jig of a tbe...albeit there is more play while utilizing rubber hangers....but can i go patent a tbe and prevent everyone from making a tbe?
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Old 01-26-2012, 04:59 PM   #167
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Why is everyone stuck on the patent? A patent is like buying the extended warranty on an items you buy at Best Buy. That item already has a factory warranty and your extended warranty could be a complete waste of money. What you are paying for is a piece of mind knowing if something does happen you at least made an attempt instead of bending over and taking it. KillerB can sell two or three of these headers to make up the cost of the patent. Like I said, on a business account side of it, it’s a drop in the bucket and it’s also a business expense/write off. This patent might not be worth it and only protects him a small percentage, but ultimately a small percentage is better than no percentage. What if down the road it does protect him, I would say it was worth the expense and time.

EDIT: BTW, you can pretty much patent anything now a days. You don’t even need a physical part or item, it can just be an idea and it falls under intellectual property.
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Old 01-26-2012, 05:05 PM   #168
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Quote:
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Why is everyone stuck on the patent?
because its an interesting topic....especially for people like myself who are working closely with fabricators on header, up, tbe, intake manifold and fuel rail designs.

so if i can go patent the stock location common UEL and EL headers designs that are used by everyone.....why wouldnt i do it?
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Old 01-26-2012, 05:14 PM   #169
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because its an interesting topic....especially for people like myself who are working closely with fabricators on header, up, tbe, intake manifold and fuel rail designs.
I say, since you are a shop, start thinking about it more. All your time and intellect can go down the toilet since you didn’t patent something your shop produced. KillerB’s header patent is kind of a catch 22 since the other posters are right, people can make slight changes and call it their own. Just think, those copycats didn’t take the time to R&D, build, test, etc. but KillerB did. Let’s say Perrin (throwing a name out there) started making a header like KillerB’s but they changed the bends slightly and flanges to bypass his patent. Now since KillerB has a patent, he has the edge and he can take them to court to let the courts decide. If he wins, Perrin will have to pay a fine plus all court fees and KillerB could have them stop production or ask for a licensing fee to use his patent to continue their production. What if he didn’t have the patent? Nothing, he would just have to live with it knowing Perrin stole his design. Highlighted is the part that the patent could pay off, doesn’t mean he is going to win, it just means he paid for a little bit of extra insurance.

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Old 01-26-2012, 05:21 PM   #170
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so if i can go patent the stock location common UEL and EL headers designs that are used by everyone.....why wouldnt i do it?
You can almost patent anything, even a configuration using different devices. An example would be a hybrid boost control solenoid setup. You can patent that if you wanted. It doesn’t mean your setup or design is protected. It all comes down to the courts if you decide to challenge someone you believe is infringing on your patent. Having a patent looks better in court than not having one at all.
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Old 01-26-2012, 05:32 PM   #171
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Kind of relates to my arguement about copycats.

I remember reading once about McDonald’s and Burger King’s location studies. It’s almost time to go home from work so I am not going to look it up. The article was talking about how McDonalds was paying millions each year to do a study on locations to figure out the best spots to place its restaurants. They would include studies from traffic, environment, etc. Know what Burger King was doing? They were putting a restaurant next to almost every McDonalds instead of doing the studies.
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Old 01-26-2012, 05:36 PM   #172
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phatron View Post

Take a tbe for example.....can you patent one? The top flange location is set in stone via the turbo location, the tranny mount is set, the exhaust hangers are set, the muffler location is set, etc etc. Basically the mounting points make a rough jig of a tbe...albeit there is more play while utilizing rubber hangers....but can i go patent a tbe and prevent everyone from making a tbe?
My understanding is that you can't patent something that already exists as prior art. That would be like copyrighting the name Microsoft (if it hadn't been already) and then charging MS royalties.

The other thing about patents is they are only worth anything if you are willing to defend them, ie- pay a bunch of legal fees. A small guy going up against a big company will be SOL if people decide to play hardball.

A reasonable compromise is to just apply for the patent, then you can label the product as "patent pending", which gives you enough rights to scare off most of the honest guys out there. Kind of like putting a lock on your door, it keeps the honest people out, but if someone really wants to get in, they can.
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Old 01-26-2012, 05:37 PM   #173
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My understanding is that you can't patent something that already exists as prior art. That would be like copyrighting the name Microsoft (if it hadn't been already) and then charging MS royalties.

The other thing about patents is they are only worth anything if you are willing to defend them, ie- pay a bunch of legal fees. A small guy going up against a big company will be SOL if people decide to play hardball.

A reasonable compromise is to just apply for the patent, then you can label the product as "patent pending", which gives you enough rights to scare off most of the honest guys out there. Kind of like putting a lock on your door, it keeps the honest people out, but if someone really wants to get in, they can.
Nicely put. Every patent processing company (Legalzoom, etc.) you go through with a patent requires a lengthy patent search before processing. From that point you will be put in contact with a legal office to go over what legal grounds you have with your patent. If everything seems good, you then start working on the charts and guts to your patent.

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Old 01-26-2012, 06:39 PM   #174
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im gonna change my LLC name to Patent Pending bwahahahahhahaha
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Old 01-26-2012, 06:52 PM   #175
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Patents don't mean a thing until you actually have to defend it in court and that can be a lengthy and very costly process.

-- Ed
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