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Old 01-26-2012, 07:57 PM   #176
All4bSpinnin
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you can stamp, patent, all you want this header does not impress

losing 30ish whp around 3500-4000 rpms! No thanks!

I see company after company try to reinvent the wheel and it never seems to work.

Imo, the best style of EL header is the one thats similar to the JDM twin scroll manifold...

You introduce a quality stainless header/uppipe setup like perrin/amr/etc with good quality flanges for less than 700$ and you've got something
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Old 01-26-2012, 08:06 PM   #177
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Equilibrium Tuning View Post
Patents don't mean a thing until you actually have to defend it in court and that can be a lengthy and very costly process.

-- Ed
So true, then it becomes a nightmare.
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Old 01-26-2012, 08:12 PM   #178
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Originally Posted by Phatron View Post
so if i can go patent the stock location common UEL and EL headers designs that are used by everyone.....why wouldnt i do it?
That's a big "if."

You can't patent something that's already out in the market, you can't even get a patent for something if it's widely known. If you have a novel design for a resonator or muffler, or for the material you build your TBE from, or maybe for a novel machine that you use for building the TBE, then you could patent that aspect of the TBE, but nobody is going to get a patent for just "a TBE." (And if your competitor duplicates your patented manufacturing tool/process then you're probably going to have a hard time proving that they've actually infringed, or even finding out about it.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by northman View Post
My understanding is that you can't patent something that already exists as prior art. That would be like copyrighting the name Microsoft (if it hadn't been already) and then charging MS royalties.

The other thing about patents is they are only worth anything if you are willing to defend them, ie- pay a bunch of legal fees. A small guy going up against a big company will be SOL if people decide to play hardball.

A reasonable compromise is to just apply for the patent, then you can label the product as "patent pending", which gives you enough rights to scare off most of the honest guys out there. Kind of like putting a lock on your door, it keeps the honest people out, but if someone really wants to get in, they can.
You can't patent names at all, that's covered by trademark law rather than patent or copyright.

Patent pending doesn't really give you any rights, it just lets competitors know that you may (in a few years) have the ability to sue them if they duplicate whatever it was you got the patent for.
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Old 01-26-2012, 08:41 PM   #179
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Originally Posted by Equilibrium Tuning View Post
Patents don't mean a thing until you actually have to defend it in court and that can be a lengthy and very costly process.

-- Ed
Patents aren't typically defended, infringements are (assuming the patents were filed and searched properly). Which means who ever is accused of copying has to defend thier design path and process. Ignorance of prior art is no excuse. So say you made a header just like so-and-so's patented header without knowledge if it's existence, you could still be held accountable for infringement.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spike_916 View Post
So true, then it becomes a nightmare.
Very true. Thanksfully I've never had to do more than take the stand as a witness for such nightmares.

As far as process and patentability, NSFW pretty much nailed it. You can't slap a petent on anything because it's a 'slight variation' of other products. There needs to be unique design features or processes.

Interesting twist this thread has taken.
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Old 01-26-2012, 08:57 PM   #180
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I know, this thread started about a header and turned into a huge discussion about patents. I rarely try to post in NASIOC unless I am bored, lol. I have been through two patent applications and its not as simple as going to Wal-Mart and picking up some hair gel. You spend months dealing with it, so when people are giving you a hard time I thought I would chime in.
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Old 01-26-2012, 08:59 PM   #181
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Originally Posted by KillerBMotorsport View Post
Patents aren't typically defended, infringements are (assuming the patents were filed and searched properly). Which means who ever is accused of copying has to defend thier design path and process. Ignorance of prior art is no excuse. So say you made a header just like so-and-so's patented header without knowledge if it's existence, you could still be held accountable for infringement.
What I meant was that you would have to file a law suite against whoever you believe to be infringing on your patent and then go through proceedings to prove the infringement. This generally involves lawyers and lots of $$ for both parties involved.

-- Ed
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Old 01-26-2012, 09:02 PM   #182
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Ok, everyone apart of this discussion watch "Flash of Genius" it will shed some light on the subject lol. It goes the good, the bad, and the ugly... not in the order. Usually ugly, bad, and then good.

[/Patent Talk]

Last edited by Spike_916; 01-26-2012 at 09:20 PM.
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Old 01-27-2012, 09:26 AM   #183
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Originally Posted by Spike_916 View Post
I know, this thread started about a header and turned into a huge discussion about patents. I rarely try to post in NASIOC unless I am bored, lol. I have been through two patent applications and its not as simple as going to Wal-Mart and picking up some hair gel. You spend months dealing with it, so when people are giving you a hard time I thought I would chime in.
I appreciate that. It's certainly not as easy as some think. It's VERY eye opening when you actually take on the process and I recommend to anyone considering it, to consult with some one who has.

Flash of Genius certainly shows how entities with deep pockets can do what they want. Personally, I don't think I could have held out that long. That poor SOB deserved every penny.
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Old 01-27-2012, 10:47 AM   #184
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I wasn't giving you a hard time if it came across like that.
It's just that "the law" and what actually happens in the real world are mostly 2 different things.
Take aem uegos for example....there are tons of companies that sell uegos on eBay well below aems maximum advertised pricing. This makes it impossible for honest folks or small retail places like myself to even attempt to sell them.
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Old 01-27-2012, 12:30 PM   #185
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I wasn't giving you a hard time if it came across like that.
I'm good. It's a far cry from being in a meeting full of suits telling you how to do your job, that haven't got a clue Those days, I do not miss
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Old 01-27-2012, 02:05 PM   #186
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KillerBMotorsport

I'm good. It's a far cry from being in a meeting full of suits telling you how to do your job, that haven't got a clue Those days, I do not miss
Tell m about it : (
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Old 01-27-2012, 03:00 PM   #187
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^^^true story
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Old 01-27-2012, 04:38 PM   #188
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Equilibrium Tuning View Post
What I meant was that you would have to file a law suite against whoever you believe to be infringing on your patent and then go through proceedings to prove the infringement. This generally involves lawyers and lots of $$ for both parties involved.

-- Ed
Exactly. For any small volume product the cost of the legal process will make it difficult to justify filing suit and attempting to recover the losses incurred. Not only is it expensive, but it is time consuming. Especially if you spend the $$ to get a judgement, and then the defending party goes belly up If there were hundreds of thousands of dollars at stake it would be worth it. But IMO, for an item such as this it will only discourage those less bold. The dishonest are going to copy it, pocket the cash, and disappear.

Not trying to be a dick, but this is the world we live in...the world of attorneys and dishonest dickheads. The two do not necessarily need to be listed separately
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Old 01-30-2012, 12:58 PM   #189
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yes sometimes.
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Old 10-29-2012, 09:55 AM   #190
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Very nice!

Quote:
Originally Posted by manitou View Post
Here is a graph from a couple pulls from my stock EJ255, VF48 (baby turbo), Killer B Holy Header w/ custom stock location up pipe, Tial MVR EWG and all the supporting mods. I was very happy with the spool up and power that I made with your header, the EWG on my VF48. Not as much when the stock clutch let go




It's still quite a torque monster.



Last edited by KillerBMotorsport; 10-29-2012 at 10:02 AM.
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Old 10-29-2012, 12:34 PM   #191
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KillerBMotorsport
Very nice!
On another pull I made over 450 WTQ when the clutch let go and it was still climbing. I'm sure it would have made more as the graph was not even starting to round over. Spool is amazingly fast on both 93 and E85 with these headers and from another graph (built motor 280 cams gtx3582) that Chris posted up from another thread they are very high HP capable. Chris you should post up that graph I mentioned.

I am currently in the process of a build with an MPS LR 2.5, big valve cnc heads, cams and a Blouch 3.5 xtr, 8cm HS, keeping my ETS TMIC. We will see what this build produces but I think spool should be good with good HP. I really like these headers!
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Old 10-29-2012, 01:42 PM   #192
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Thanks for the kind words!

Quote:
Originally Posted by manitou View Post
Chris you should post up that graph I mentioned.
You mean this post...

Quote:
Originally Posted by BoostInc View Post
This is Vader.
Built at Boost Inc and tuned by Scotty at Motiva here in Abq, NM.
Here you go guys, please enjoy.
Sleeved Block with coated CP pistons, Carrilo rods w/ CARR bolts built by RS Machine
CNC heads w/ +1 Valves
Supertech Valvetrain w/ BC 280 Cams
Killer B Holy Header W/ Boost Inc custom up pipe and rotated set up
Garrett GTX3582R w/ Tial 1.06 SS hotside.
2 Aeromotive 340lph pumps with Full Blown duel top hat set up, -8 feed line
ID 2000cc injectors
AEM EMS
Custom FMIC piping w/ custom Bell huge intercooler
This graph is at 30 psi at 5400" elevation. Turbo is out of breath and had a hard time being efficient after 30 psi.
We had a 1.19 correction factor and i forget what we made uncorrected. Someone has other graphs and videos that im sure will be up shortly.
Any other questions please ask.
Thanks


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Old 10-29-2012, 02:15 PM   #193
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KillerBMotorsport
Thanks for the kind words!

You mean this post...
Yep that one!
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Old 10-30-2012, 12:34 AM   #194
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Looking at it again. It's a pretty amazing power band really, a 3000 rpm spread at over 500 WHP & 500 WTQ. I know the graph stops at 7250 rpms but HP curve is looking pretty flat out there! Almost doesn't look like a Subaru power band. Personally having the results I have had on my stock block and VF48 and seeing results like the one above, I'm not sure that a twin scroll would be as good in response and power. The same division and pulse matching is taking place, it's just taking place closer to the source of the pulse.

On another note my heads are finally done and the XTI should be running by the end of the week. Then tuning mid November just in time to put her to bed for the winter. I hope to be posting up a graph with a pretty fat power band shortly. Nothing like the one^^ just above but should be a fun one for the XTI!

Last edited by manitou; 10-30-2012 at 01:16 AM.
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Old 10-30-2012, 01:08 AM   #195
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OK, I thought I'd post up a pic of my freshly ceramic coated (previously wrapped) custom up pipe and header.

I also posted a pic of the wrapped header installed on my XTI w/ the VF48. You can see my EWG 1.75" separate exhaust along side the down pipe and 3" exhaust. I also added a SuperTrapp S/C Elite 4" x 10" x 2" ID universal muffler on the end of the EWG pipe near the rear diff. You can still hear the waste gate but it's not much louder than the exhaust. Stealth is the word with my XTI!
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Old 10-30-2012, 09:06 AM   #196
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Originally Posted by manitou View Post
It's a pretty amazing power band really, a 3000 rpm spread at over 500 WHP & 500 WTQ. I know the graph stops at 7250 rpms but HP curve is looking pretty flat out there! Almost doesn't look like a Subaru power band.
Correct, that is a HUGE powerband. A 500whp/wtq Subaru is screaming fast, let alone over a 3,000 RPM range with 200 MORE whp on tap! That's well beyond the RPM drop between shifts so you're ALWAYS in the power.

It doesn't look like a typical Subaru power band because it's not a typical Subaru header

Quote:
Originally Posted by manitou View Post
OK, I thought I'd post up a pic of my freshly ceramic coated (previously wrapped) custom up pipe and header.

I also posted a pic of the wrapped header installed on my XTI w/ the VF48. You can see my EWG 1.75" separate exhaust along side the down pipe and 3" exhaust. I also added a SuperTrapp S/C Elite 4" x 10" x 2" ID universal muffler on the end of the EWG pipe near the rear diff. You can still hear the waste gate but it's not much louder than the exhaust. Stealth is the word with my XTI!
Very nice. Really liking the dump going back like that. Angel does great work. If I ever get some spare time (yeah right!) I'd love to develop a product similar to that. It's just a nice quiet-ish setup that leaves little on the table on the performance end. Again, very nice!
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Old 10-30-2012, 11:43 AM   #197
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Thanks for the compliments! Yes Angel is a very good welder and fab man, I'll tell you that Puerto Rican and his crew know how to make **** GO. That and he is a super good guy, stand up!! I was in the shop a month or so ago and he was working on a ridiculous RX8, something like 8-900 WHP/ GT45R with GM 4 spd auto and a +13,000 rpm redline. The thing sounded so nasty! One of Angel's Puerto Rican buddies from the Florida who specializes in tuning RX's was up at the shop putting some finishing touches on the tune that day. I talked to the owner a bit and looking at his car suggested that he needed bigger brakes but he smiled and reminded me he had a chute on the back That thing was a beast The RX8 owner really liked my XTI

I did not want the dump tube well dumping under the firewall and the extended dump tube was Dom Acia/ MPS suggestion which works great but still barked quite loud. It was my idea to add the SuperTrapp SC Elite muffler on the end. It's the smallest all stainless steel muffler they make with the tunable disc tech. It comes with 12 discs installed and I bought another 6 disc pack to open it up a bit more. We have 2 hangars on the dump, one attached to the DP and one attached to the ST muffler and welded to the 3". Angel put a flex on the down pipe portion next to the flex in my 3" DP. He is also adding a v-band just above the bottom of the firewall so we can pull the EWG exhaust off the car (1 v-band bolt and 2 hangar bolts) and run a straight dump tube for the track. Here's a couple more pics of the EWG exhaust.

This is before adding the ST muffler. Behind it you can see the added 12" Vibrant resonator in my Cobb customized, all v-band 3" exhaust. It all fits in there quite nicely. I like stealth and it's pretty quiet and the ST muffler works great without robbing much if any power! I'll get more photos of the completed EWG exhaust once it's all done and post them up.

Last edited by manitou; 10-30-2012 at 01:13 PM.
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Old 10-30-2012, 01:52 PM   #198
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how you change the oil filter? Looks like the pipe is right under it
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Old 10-30-2012, 02:16 PM   #199
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The oil filter was tight but it still goes on and off. This stock motor was an EJ255 and they have an oil cooler spacer/ bracket on the block that shims it out because of the stock exhaust manifolds. We didn't remove it because I would have had to buy a new oil cooler and it just fit as you can see. On my new MPS LR 2.5 build I deleted the spacer/ bracket and we are using a new STI oil cooler which should give me an inch or so clearance around the primarys.

Did you sell your EFR? What's on your car now? I'm kinda wishing I had Dom build me a Benson sleeved block like yours, especially with all this crap about the 704 cases. We are going to have to take it a bit easy on my motor

I'm going to PM you about the Dom tuning session we are trying to do in Chicago.
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Old 10-30-2012, 03:49 PM   #200
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how you change the oil filter? Looks like the pipe is right under it
With the 257 cooler on there it looks more like this...

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