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Old 12-07-2010, 02:25 PM   #1
KNS Brakes
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Default Subaru Track BBK

We are introducing a new AP Racing Better Brake Kit to the market and have passed the installation and first track day test with flying colors.

This kit is very unique in that it's not just super-sized.

Our test driver Paul ran a best time of 2:12.x at VIR full course in his 2008 STi. It is a street legal track car - DOT slicks, bolt in cage, additional cooling, no AC and some other weight savings, but power is pretty conservative at about 275 Mustang Dyno AWHP.


As installed – brand new bling for the moment!





It fits the 17” Enkei’s on my 2006 STi which we used for the first test install.





This kit has been developed in conjunction with Jeff Ritter and Essex Parts Services - North America's exclusive distributor of AP Racing track products.

KNS Brakes is the prototype tester and will also be the retailer and product support company for this kit.

This is a track kit composed of proven AP Racing track parts. Most of them come from ‘late model’ type racing brake applications where moderate cost, ease of replacement and track durability are the targets. Late models have smallish diameter wheels, giant tires, enormous HP and wreck all the time.
There are many features designed to improve performance and durability on track.


The kit uses an Aluminum 4 piston radial mount caliper.

-No powder coat to darken/change color.

-Stainless Steel Pistons - reduced heat transfer to fluid

-No boots – they just melt on track anyway

-High temp seals.

-Antiknockback springs

-Protected bleedscrew and crossover pipe.



The kit uses a fully floating 325 x 32 mm 70 vane racing 2-piece J-Hook brake rotor.



Many rotors in this size range have 36 to 48 vanes. 70 vanes means more surface area = more heat sink and more heat rejection.

J-Hook slot design intent is to help create an even transfer film on the rotor surface.

Floating rotors – no coning and true centering in the caliper = even pad and rotor wear.

The hats are made of 2024-T351 billet aircraft aluminum – not the typical 6061-T6 which gets soft when hot. The hats feature a unique scallop between the attaching bolts to direct airflow across the outer face of the rotor.



Brake Pads for this caliper:

The pad shape is a common Wilwood shape - 7420. IT is 20 mm thick and available in many compounds from almost every pad maker in the world.



As an example – the LIST price for Hawk DTC 70 race pads.

DTC-70’s for the AP caliper - $189

DTC-70’s for an EVO/STi front Brembo caliper - $354

You will save both unsprung and rotating weight.













Most STi rotors are in the 23 pound range.

A similar kit is so far doing pretty well in the Corvette market as T1 just opened up to aftermarket BBK's.
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Last edited by KNS Brakes; 11-20-2014 at 03:57 PM. Reason: First Track Day Test - Flying Colors
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Old 12-07-2010, 03:32 PM   #2
nickrice20
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I could certainly be interested in the price comparison between this kit and Stoptech or Racing brake prices. I am not so excited about the small diameter rotor but if the cost of replacement parts is really that much cheaper then it would be great. I would love to give it a go next race season. If you need anymore test cars let me know, either way keep me up to date on development.

Nick
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Old 12-07-2010, 04:30 PM   #3
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I'd be interested to know the costs comparison as well!
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Old 12-07-2010, 04:48 PM   #4
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ken, any plans for a similar 'budget' rear setup?

Last edited by Homemade WRX; 12-07-2010 at 05:47 PM.
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Old 12-07-2010, 05:19 PM   #5
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Any way to go with a slightly bigger rotor?
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Old 12-07-2010, 06:13 PM   #6
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My friend had this idea for his RX7, using lightly used NASCAR rotors that are easily found on ebay. Wilwood makes every caliper imaginable. The only problem is the hats and caliper brackets that need to be custom machined.

All in all, it's a great idea. I'll be keeping an eye on this.
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Old 12-07-2010, 06:35 PM   #7
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interest here, it could be a great bbk system
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Old 12-07-2010, 09:19 PM   #8
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I'm interested! Anything with a thicker pad and more life is good.

If you need a tester in hot climate... I tend to do a decent amount of track days in Texas summer heat.

http://www.iwsti.com/forums/gd-membe...ate-defis.html
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Old 12-08-2010, 06:31 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slowguy View Post
I'd be interested to know the costs comparison as well!
me too
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Old 12-08-2010, 06:52 AM   #10
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Thanks for trying to bring a new solution to the Subie community.

Are hats part of the planned kit and if not what's the source for them?
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Old 12-08-2010, 09:30 AM   #11
KNS Brakes
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Click the links for the calipers and rotors - you'll see retail replacement costs. $2500 or so for the kit is the target.

We will of course make a hat and bracket so that it's a complete bolt on kit - and supply it with your pad of choice.
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Old 12-08-2010, 09:34 AM   #12
KNS Brakes
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nickrice20 View Post
I could certainly be interested in the price comparison between this kit and Stoptech or Racing brake prices. I am not so excited about the small diameter rotor but if the cost of replacement parts is really that much cheaper then it would be great. I would love to give it a go next race season. If you need anymore test cars let me know, either way keep me up to date on development.

Nick
It will likely end up more than the 332/32 kit from Stoptech.

I don't know what RacingBrake is selling anymore but it's a different category of product. I'm pretty sure AP doesn't just re-badge Taiwan calipers.
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Old 12-08-2010, 09:37 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harman Motive, Inc. View Post
Any way to go with a slightly bigger rotor?
I'll be talking w/ AP Friday at PRI.

It is a 72 vane racing rotor - I would not overlook that as it's pretty relevant. Paul has been eating STi brakes on a semi- weekly basis since mid Summer on his 08 STi so we'll have a pretty direct comparison going forward.

I'll get more caliper specs as we go along but at the moment I am not certain what larger rotor the caliper can support.
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Old 12-08-2010, 09:44 AM   #14
KNS Brakes
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Homemade WRX View Post
ken, any plans for a similar 'budget' rear setup?
AP Racing and 'budget' - not so much.

I don't see a real need for a rear kit for many of the trackday cars out there - if you have a Subaru track car that NEEDS a rear brake upgrade then we might expect this would not be the front kit to go with. The park brake adds a bunch of complexity and cost to any kit and the rear STi brakes hold up pretty well.

It's a BBK

Big Brake Kit - no not really
Bling Brake Kit - definitely not
Budget Brake Kit - no - not that either.

Better Brake Kit - in some cases hopefully so. For example - Paul's front calipers are pretty much toast after about 12-14 events. They were worth $800 or whatever prior to tracking the life out of them. Those are parts we might not expect to ruin so fast and they could have been sold/saved for use for what they are good at.

Again - the idea is to only add features that are known to improve performance on track while trying to keep consumable costs/intervals as low as possible.

At least we get to go to the track to test it - what could be more fun than that.

And Carolina Motorsports Park eats brakes at an amazing rate.

Last edited by KNS Brakes; 12-08-2010 at 09:59 AM.
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Old 12-08-2010, 10:16 AM   #15
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very interested in this. I have an 08 STI that is a track car only. I run 17" track wheels and i would love a new front brake setup that will work with 17" wheels. I go thru rotors and pads more than i would like.
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Old 12-08-2010, 10:40 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scottjua View Post
I'm interested! Anything with a thicker pad and more life is good.

If you need a tester in hot climate... I tend to do a decent amount of track days in Texas summer heat.

http://www.iwsti.com/forums/gd-membe...ate-defis.html
OT - but do you get overboost at high load w/ the VF-39? Every car we run does in cold weather. oops - catted DP - probably not I guess.
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Old 12-08-2010, 11:02 AM   #17
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I used 'budget' loosely. Yes, AP is money but a very nice product.
I guess the only budget part really is in the pads
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Old 12-08-2010, 11:05 AM   #18
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What colors of powdercoating will be offered on the calipers? Would the rotor hats have to be powdercoated the same color, or could I order them a different color?



Quote:
Originally Posted by WRXBrakes
I don't know what RacingBrake is selling anymore but it's a different category of product. I'm pretty sure AP doesn't just re-badge Taiwan calipers.
Zing! To keep this from going further OT I'll shoot you a PM regarding RacingBrake.

Pat Olsen
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Old 12-08-2010, 12:41 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Olsen View Post
What colors of powdercoating will be offered on the calipers? Would the rotor hats have to be powdercoated the same color, or could I order them a different color?




Zing! To keep this from going further OT I'll shoot you a PM regarding RacingBrake.

Pat Olsen
If you could please send me the same info that would be great. I am trying to buy competitively priced equipment not shoddy equipment. Trying to keep a grassroots racing STI going has made me a real bargain hunter.
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Old 12-08-2010, 05:01 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WRXBrakes View Post
I don't know what RacingBrake is selling anymore but it's a different category of product. I'm pretty sure AP doesn't just re-badge Taiwan calipers.
AMEN, brother!!!

Chris
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Old 12-08-2010, 05:13 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harman Motive, Inc. View Post
Any way to go with a slightly bigger rotor?
As I'm sure you know, AP Racing and its engineering partners have larger options available for 18" wheels, such as that chosen by Cosworth UK for their CS400 and Mann Engineering for their Type-25. These would be more for street/track day cars as they include the features necessary for many thousands of trouble-free and low-maintenance miles, yet still have impressive thermal capacity. Matching rear kits are also available, which will benefit those most who have lowered suspensions, stiffer springs and adjustable damper valving. It would be difficult to tell the difference on cars with close to stock suspensions.

The nice system Essex is developing (which will probably fit easily under most 17" track wheels) is for dedicated, full-on track cars that typically receive more maintenance at much shorter service intervals.

Chris
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Old 12-08-2010, 11:06 PM   #22
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I like the idea, and I understand that it's a well engineered rotor that's going to provide something of an increase in cooling efficiency over the stock 326x30 sti rotors. However, most Subarus running around the track are well over 3000lb and have well over 300whp, and I'm just not convinced this kit will have enough heat capacity especially being marketed towards "track only" cars.

We're at around 3200 with JC in the car and even our mongo Stoptechs weren't completely happy until we improved the ducting and went with CL pads. And we only do 2-3 hotlaps at a time. MSRP on the 380x35 discs we use is 290 btw.
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Old 12-13-2010, 10:28 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harman Motive, Inc. View Post
I like the idea, and I understand that it's a well engineered rotor that's going to provide something of an increase in cooling efficiency over the stock 326x30 sti rotors. However, most Subarus running around the track are well over 3000lb and have well over 300whp, and I'm just not convinced this kit will have enough heat capacity especially being marketed towards "track only" cars.

We're at around 3200 with JC in the car and even our mongo Stoptechs weren't completely happy until we improved the ducting and went with CL pads. And we only do 2-3 hotlaps at a time. MSRP on the 380x35 discs we use is 290 btw.
You raise a good question.

We had a much closer look at it at PRI and talked w/ Gary Hardbar who devised a similar kit for C5 Corvettes. They put 15 or so kits in service starting late this track season and thus far have not sold spare rotors.

Additionally, one other benefit that we may be able to manage is the ability to use a cheap(er) stock rotors for street use saving the race pads and rotors for track days. This avoids the pretty common issue of bedding street and track pads repeatedly on the same rotors.

As far as the rotors cooling efficiency - we will see as it is going to happen. We are applying the same basic strategy as NASCAR - we can't (don't want to in this case) use a bigger diameter rotor due to wheel restrictions so we make it thicker with more vanes and use thicker pads and YES adding as much air as possible. Some form of ducting will help any brakes significantly and we are sure ours are no different. We do want to test without ducts first to see the limit.

It's not really intended for a 500 HP Time attack car with huge wheels/slicks/downforce and 19" wheels. There is not really a market there anyway as pretty much any car like that is sponsored or run by a shop.

We'll continue to add details - thanks for the feedback. We're really looking forward to putting it to the test as soon as possible.

-Ken
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Old 12-13-2010, 12:59 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by subielife View Post
very interested in this. I have an 08 STI that is a track car only. I run 17" track wheels and i would love a new front brake setup that will work with 17" wheels. I go thru rotors and pads more than i would like.
Check with Mann Engineering. They have a lot of experience with 17" wheels and running brakes hard at the track. They have tried just about every solution available.

Chris
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Old 12-13-2010, 05:18 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WRXBrakes View Post
OT - but do you get overboost at high load w/ the VF-39? Every car we run does in cold weather. oops - catted DP - probably not I guess.
Actually I did get quite a bit of overboosting for a while on the track and road. But I kept working with Cobb (they're local to me) and got re-maps made, and finally a second dyno tune, and they were able to eliminate whatever issue I was having. The target tune was for 19 psi, but I was hitting 22 and 23!

Now though, even in the cold so far (cold for TX that is), haven't had any issues spiking over the target boost for the tune.

On the brakes issue though... I'm getting faster all the time, and the pads are just too damned thin... I want this solution!

PM coming your way.
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