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Old 12-21-2010, 07:29 PM   #1
Blue_Rex
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Default What do think of the Torque Solutions Drive Shaft Carrier Bearing Support Bushings?

I don't see alot of information about these on the net, and I am looking to remove some driveline slop. I replaced pretty much every other bushing already.
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Old 12-21-2010, 08:05 PM   #2
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I've got the Beatrush version of these, noticed no difference what-so-ever.
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Old 12-21-2010, 08:24 PM   #3
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Pretty useless. You can do the same thing with some washers.

Don't waste your cash.
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Old 12-22-2010, 12:19 AM   #4
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I bought them for $30 from upscale automotive, shipped. For the first two weeks installed, it was definitely noticeable that it made the clutch engagement smoother but at the cost of NVH. After those first two to three weeks, the clutch engagement seemed to have returned to its pre-install state. I guess the driveline settled in and found the next weakpoint to target, which I haven't found and don't think there is a solution for it. I started a thread like last week in regards to 'driveline slop always returns.'

After having these bushings on for about 3 months, I don't recommend them simply because their small benefit will diminish over time.
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Old 12-22-2010, 11:43 AM   #5
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Their benefit cannot diminish over time (perception diminishes over time - as well as placebo).. They are solid aluminum...

I'm running them.. They aren't something you are going to notice. The carrier itself is mounted in a giant rubber bushing that is extremely soft. For $30 they are worth it if you are just going down the line tightening up the drivetrain mounts (And vastly superior to running washers as the bushings key into the carrier mount so it cannot move)..
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Old 12-22-2010, 12:04 PM   #6
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Their benefit will diminish over time. Your driveline will find the next weakest point and if this is the last bushing, then the slop will be of the drivetrain in which you can't really fix.
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Old 12-22-2010, 04:16 PM   #7
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.... Your "driveline" isn't self aware.. It won't find anything. And it certainly wouldn't take some time for it to show up.. Unless a bushing tears somewhere - it's not magically going to change hardness.

So lets see - you swap in some parts - feel a difference - feeling goes away over time and you are again unsatisfied (leaving your understanding about there actually being a real problem out of the equation).

What is more likely?

You install an aluminum bushing - after a couple weeks it gets soft? Or you drivetrain, while doing its thing for a week or two, suddenly realizes that it has another bushing it could be gaining slop from and randomly decides to start using that instead?

Or your perception of the problem, cause, and solution was flawed. Placebo. Which could take a week or two...

Bushings don't take a week or two for the drivetrain to "find" them.....
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Old 12-22-2010, 04:28 PM   #8
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So if I replace these...is there anything else that would be a weak point? I've already done group n engine and trans mounts (and crossmember bushings), Torque Solutions pitch stopper, subframe bushings, differential lockdown...I'll have to look underneath and see what else there could possibly be.
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Old 12-22-2010, 04:30 PM   #9
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What is your goal?
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Old 12-22-2010, 04:32 PM   #10
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Heh...replace more parts on my car? Stabilize the drivetrain as much as possible, and eliminate any slop that can possibly be worked out. I actually found them looking for a way to minimize wheelhop, which I've had once since I put in the new rear sway bar.

Last edited by Blue_Rex; 12-22-2010 at 04:38 PM.
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Old 12-22-2010, 04:39 PM   #11
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The "slop" is there for creature comforts.. If you aren't planning on doing any serious track racing or making extreme amount's of HP you really don't need to lock any of it down..

About the only positive benefits you will feel will be easier shifting and less weight transfer around corners (you wont feel that unless you are running some kind of serious suspension setup).

And the tradeoffs will be : Car will be a rattle trap as a LOT more vibration from the engine is transmitted to the chassis.. Basically NVH will be way way up (noise vibration harshness) - subjective measurement of how bad a car sounds from the cabin.. Your tranmission and rear diff will pass in a lot of grinding and grumbling noises that will sound like they want to die (even though the don't).. Etc etc.. Basically terrible ride quality..

So unless you are planning a 500whp time attack car you might wanna take it easy..

I'm running a group N trans mount, Torque solutions pitchstop and carrier bushings, and that's it.. And this is on an 11 second daily driver. Even with just these the car is pretty harsh on NVH..

*edit - excuse me, also the trans crossmember bushings .. Cant remember where they came from, but I'm running them too..

Last edited by BenGSX; 12-22-2010 at 04:44 PM.
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Old 12-22-2010, 05:11 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BenGSX View Post
The "slop" is there for creature comforts.. If you aren't planning on doing any serious track racing or making extreme amount's of HP you really don't need to lock any of it down..

About the only positive benefits you will feel will be easier shifting and less weight transfer around corners (you wont feel that unless you are running some kind of serious suspension setup).

And the tradeoffs will be : Car will be a rattle trap as a LOT more vibration from the engine is transmitted to the chassis.. Basically NVH will be way way up (noise vibration harshness) - subjective measurement of how bad a car sounds from the cabin.. Your tranmission and rear diff will pass in a lot of grinding and grumbling noises that will sound like they want to die (even though the don't).. Etc etc.. Basically terrible ride quality..

So unless you are planning a 500whp time attack car you might wanna take it easy..

I'm running a group N trans mount, Torque solutions pitchstop and carrier bushings, and that's it.. And this is on an 11 second daily driver. Even with just these the car is pretty harsh on NVH..

*edit - excuse me, also the trans crossmember bushings .. Cant remember where they came from, but I'm running them too..
Thanks; at least I know how much noise it will add. I might do it anyway. My wife will hate it.

Why would it shift easier? And is there any other benefit for the daily driver that maybe drives on the extreme side of daily?
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Old 12-22-2010, 05:17 PM   #13
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It seems I should've been more clear from the start as my words are being dissected.

to be honest, can't argue to the placebo effect. But, within the limits of what's available to me, I test out every part I install. I pick a few driving maneuvers that I think the mod will affect and I do them before and after installing the mod. With that said, I know that the only improvement I felt was smoother clutch engagement whether it would be easy driving or redline shifts at WOT. The only negative was an increase in NVH especially on the highway (it's close to exhaust droning). And yes, this improvement did go away after a week or two but the NVH never went away. I should add I drove less than 50 miles in that timeframe.

I never said the bushings get soft (that's actually kind of stupid) and I meant the driveline settled in with these bushings so thus the diminished improvement of smoother clutch engagement. I must apologize for sounding like the drivetrain will seek and destroy it's next weakest point.

And again, I don't recommend these bushings, placebo effect or not. However, if NVH isn't an issue for you and you easily have $30 to try out a mod, then why not? Definitely post up a review though, both pros and cons.
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Old 12-22-2010, 06:06 PM   #14
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30 bucks for these is insane.
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Old 12-22-2010, 07:53 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue_Rex View Post
Thanks; at least I know how much noise it will add. I might do it anyway. My wife will hate it.

Why would it shift easier? And is there any other benefit for the daily driver that maybe drives on the extreme side of daily?
It will shift easier because the transmission will move around less.. It's not so much that the transmission itself will work any better - just that you will get less movement in the shifter making it easier to accurately shift.. - And I am not talking about the carrier bushings - just the trans mount and trans subframe mounts..

Other than that - no.. Especially on a newer car. You hear a lot of folks rant and rave about how certain parts made their car handle so much better - or got rid of rear end clunks - etc.. But take it with a grain of salt.. Who knows what kind of mileage / abuse the factory bushings had on them.




As for the obvious troll. $30? Really? You find that to be an offensive pricetag for 4 precision CNC lathed and anodized pieces of aluminum? I wont even get into what kind of everyday objects are priced higher with even less cost involved..

If you think a stack of washers will do the same thing then you should look again because you only have friction locating the carrier in 2 directions now.. I think driving to the store to by a stack of appropriate sized washers would actually cost more than just ordering these.. (Unless your time is worthless).

And to the other gentleman - Again - my point is that drivetrains wont "settle out" - thats a cop out term for not being able to technically describe what is happening.. It isn't magic.. If you bolt the drivetrain together with X number of bits that do Y - and these bits do not change in their performance given use - nothing in the drivetrain is going to change unless a bolt loosens up or falls out somewhere.. And the cycle you have been describing eliminates any change in urethane hardness as you said it also occurred when you installed aluminum bushings.. Any improvement you felt was probably more of a function of the way you were driving with "new parts" - or simply psychosomatic.
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Old 12-22-2010, 11:48 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BenGSX View Post

As for the obvious troll. $30? Really? You find that to be an offensive pricetag for 4 precision CNC lathed and anodized pieces of aluminum? I wont even get into what kind of everyday objects are priced higher with even less cost involved..
No trolling here. These are expensive. Expensive for what you are getting and expensive for the benefit you get (basically nothing). In fact I'd probably upgrade every bushing on the the car including the radiator support cushions before I dropped $35 on these.

You've obviously been under you car. Do you not recall that the bushings hold a metal ring, which contains a much larger bushing, to your chassis? That larger bushing allows that driveshaft to move well over 3/8" in any direction radially and much more than that axially. So at what point is eliminating a bushing with less than 1-2mm of slop? WHAT DOES THIS DO? The driveshaft can still slap around in every imaginable direction. Literally, every axis still has extreme motion. You have prevented nothing.

And don't pull the "4 precision CNC lathed and anodized pieces of aluminum" line with me. I am paid to manufacture stuff for a living. 40-60 hours a week I am exposed to the wonderful world of manufacturing. A large part of my job is to have various designs quoted by many manufacturing houses involving a multitude of manufacturing processes. It is my job to evaluate our suppliers' processes and understand where costs come from. These cost nothing to make. They are a simple turned part. They are likely done is 2-3 passes as a high feed rate; translation: cheap and fast. And aluminum and anodizing are cheap too. I'd be shocked if there is $5 into a set of these. Maybe $10 if you figure they do extremely low volumes at local mom & pop machine houses. And if I had to have them made in any significant quantity, they would be <2.00 a set. No joke. No exaggeration. And probably from a US supplier. "Precision CNC" as opposed to those totally non-precise computer-numerical control machines! I've got news for you, it's ALL CNC machining these days and accuracy is many times greater than even a couple of decades ago.

And bringing up the fact that other things in life are also overpriced is a red herring. I agree, but this is not what we are discussing. We are discussing these spacers.

But this is all a moot point because they are useless and if you really wanted to do this you could recreate it with stack of washers/spacers available at any ACE hardware for $5.

I love the website description:
Quote:
Torque Solution Drive Shaft Center Support Bushings will replace the OEM Rubber mounts with billet aluminum pieces. Doing so will allow for reduced wheel hop, improved acceleration and better E.T's. The mounts keeps the drive shaft Carrier bearing from moving under hard acceleration, stopping and turning giving you optimal performance 100% of the time.

•Eliminates wheel hop / traction loss
•Improved 60fts / e.t's
•Made out of lightweight 6061-T6 billet aluminum
•Street and track torture tested
•Black anodized
•Life Time Warranty
•Made in USA
"Billet" - must be quality!

Take a good look at these parts:

Here is the driveshaft carrier bearing and the rubber isolated hoop that suspends it:


Here is what is being replaced. Notice how small that bushing is. If I put a screw drive in it and try to flex it, it barely moves.


Now with just my single hand, look how much the rubber doughnut (for lack of a better term) flexes. I mean seriously, look at that; I pushed the tab down over 1.5 inches! So what makes us think eliminating those little tiny bushings on the hoop will prevent the driveshaft from doing whatever the heck it wants to do when I accelerate or brake or launch or whatever?



If you really want to eliminate slop in the drivesahft, you have two solutions: A solid center carrier bearing assembly with no huge rubber isolator like shown below or install a single piece driveshaft.

Sorry, no trolling here, just not drinking the $35 snake oil.

Last edited by kpluiten; 12-22-2010 at 11:55 PM.
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Old 12-23-2010, 02:55 AM   #17
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Couple quick points.

I mentioned above that the carrier was mounted in a giant rubber bushing and that there would always be some slop there. - if you are really concerned about it an old trick is to pop a hole in the doughnut near the top and pump it full of urethane.

As for precision CNC.. Yes - these days with 99.9999% of consumer junk coming from China - there is still a difference.. These bushings wont even slide together unless they are absolutely perfectly alligned - and they fit the tab on the carrier mount perfectly.

And for cost.. Considering I was thinking about producing a very similar part I know exactly what these cost to produce (on my equipment at least).. And its even lower than you estimated.. But Manufacturing cost != retail price. 30 bucks is a pretty reasonable price for a set of aluminum bushings machined to the exact spec for your application.. At least in my opinion.. That is market determined.. You just have a backdoor glimpse into what things cost..

Side note.. I have that exact same creeper, engine stand, and gas can stacked near each other in my garage too.. heh.

Last edited by BenGSX; 12-23-2010 at 12:32 PM.
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Old 12-23-2010, 04:15 AM   #18
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Actually, these bushings do make a difference in helping the car shift smoother (no joke). I have them on both my Subie's. It is worth the relatively low cost to buy them. It's not a world changer, but does provide an improvement (maybe 5%+).
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Old 12-23-2010, 07:17 AM   #19
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very slight, subtle improvement if any. If anything I feel an aftermarket pitch stopper(vs groupn and stock) has more gains.

no point in doing this mod if you are still on stock tranny and engine mounts for sure, only worth it if you running out of things to replace in the driveline...like literally the last mod to do other than the actual driveshaft itself.

do engine+ tranny mounts, rear diff mount bushings, front crossmember bushings, rear subframe locking bolts......before you should even do this mod.
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Old 12-23-2010, 04:10 PM   #20
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That's funny...I hadn't really thought about how small those things are. After scouring the net it is obvious that there isn't even a group n version of those bushings. Thanks everyone for the input. Not sure which way I'll go, but if I buy them I will definitely do a write-up.
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Old 12-23-2010, 04:16 PM   #21
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There's already a review thread for this...

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...ghlight=torque
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Old 12-23-2010, 06:11 PM   #22
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I should have looked at that one on the computer. I read it on my Blackberry, but now I see the pictures and it makes more sense. What I hated the most about that thread was the mixed info like the bozo that said there was no increase in NVH.
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Old 12-23-2010, 06:35 PM   #23
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in my experience, there is definitely more NVH. It is close to exhaust droning.
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Old 12-23-2010, 07:33 PM   #24
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NVH is minor with this part. However NVH is quite high with the Group N tranny and motor mount, as well as the pitch stop.
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Old 12-23-2010, 08:10 PM   #25
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Quote:
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NVH is minor with this part. However NVH is quite high with the Group N tranny and motor mount, as well as the pitch stop.
So...since I have those I probably won't notice?
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