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Old 12-30-2010, 10:48 AM   #26
KillerBMotorsport
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Any chance an oil line was leaned on or pinched? I don't recall, but do the 04s have the inline filters? Could be clogged?
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Old 12-30-2010, 10:58 AM   #27
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yes 04's had filters but i removed them right before the first turbo went.
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Old 12-30-2010, 11:16 AM   #28
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Interesting. I guess I'd try verifyting flow & pressure next. There could always be some other kind of wierdo blockage you happen to be lucky enough to be experiencing.
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Old 12-30-2010, 11:37 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jetski247 View Post
i'll look into that, how important is the little vacuum line that runs from the turbo to what i would guess would be the boost controller and then runs back to the intake turbo inlet? not sure what it is, sorry for the dumbness on that.....lol but it was dry rotted and broken and has been for a little while.

the part that is broken was going from the boost controller to the turbo intake tube, not the turbo to the boost controller or whatever that is.
That 'little vacuum line' is what allows the ECU to control boost. You describe a 'dry rotted and broken' line which would mean... your turbo had NO boost control and overboosted everytime you went into boost. On its own, this line would account for your blown turbo.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jetski247 View Post
another question..........what banjo bolt should i run? the stocker has like a 1/32 hole and the aftermarket one has like a 5/32 size, and when my turbo went out, even with the tiny stock hole........it was enough to dump oil in the exhaust at an alarming rate, what do you guys think?

The banjo bolt on the left is the bolt that comes with a filter, the bolt on the right did not, nor ever did. In addition, the little hole in the wrong bolt restricted oil flow/volume to your turbo's bearings... one other reason, all by itself, why your turbo failed.

Contrary to apparently some beliefs, a journal bearing turbo requires a lot of oil volume to lubricate it's bearings. A ball bearing CHRA, conversely, requires a minimum of oil to work well... to much oil, in fact, will cause oil leak issues thus BB CHRA turbos normally have oil restrictors to limit the oil to the bearings.

It is disheartening to see a fellow Subie owner with such issues. But as you can readily see the lack of understanding of how things work, coupled with poor maintenance and a lack of data-logging can lead to disaster. Also, it happens time and time again when people rely on their understanding of other platforms the find it does not directly cross-reference to a Subaru.

FWIW, my advice is to bury yourself in acquiring a thorough understanding of how your Subaru works before you put any more time or money into your car. You may find it doesn't make sense, especially if your oiling system is now full of metal debris.
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Old 12-30-2010, 11:39 AM   #30
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whilst doing a compression check, the oil feed line DUMPS oil all over everything it prob dumped 1-2 quarts while doing the check. i blew through the banjo bolt to see if it was clogged but it was not................maybe all my piston rings came off and that is what did it.
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Old 12-30-2010, 11:40 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by jetski247 View Post
yes 04's had filters but i removed them right before the first turbo went.
See my previous post. If that oil filtered banjo bolt was replaced with that short one with the little hole... there is your FIRST turbo failure.
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Old 12-30-2010, 11:44 AM   #32
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seeya, your not reading the entire post,

no, the banjo bolt on the left did NOT come with a filter, it came with the new turbo. and when i say new turbo, i mean the new turbo still sitting in the box waiting to go on the car. i was asking which banjo bolt should i run, the aftemarket one on the left or the oem one on the right? no filter mention. i never changed oil flow from the factory besides removing the inline filters on TOP of the engine, not the turbo which would only INCREASE oil flow to the turbo but the oem banjo bolt still limits oil flow to the turbo.

does the boost controller use manifold vacuum to work? that was the section that was dry rotted, not the section going to the boost controller.

fwi, the banjo bolt on the right is the OEM bolt..............not a replacement,

Last edited by jetski247; 12-30-2010 at 11:53 AM.
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Old 12-30-2010, 11:52 AM   #33
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These are the kind of stories that get me worried. I have an 05 LGT and have just started to have some oil leaks that appear to be around the turbo area. I have also thrown both a P0011 and P0022 individually, but never at the same time. I have searched and read on these codes and am prepared for the worst but hoping for the best. The car runs fine but I am also babying it until this weekend until I an verify and fix the hopefully minimal problems (AVCS filters, oil change, etc). Good luck with your repairs and hopefully the third time is a charm.

Kyle
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Old 12-30-2010, 12:19 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jetski247 View Post
seeya, your not reading the entire post,

no, the banjo bolt on the left did NOT come with a filter, it came with the new turbo. and when i say new turbo, i mean the new turbo still sitting in the box waiting to go on the car. i was asking which banjo bolt should i run, the aftemarket one on the left or the oem one on the right? no filter mention. i never changed oil flow from the factory besides removing the inline filters on TOP of the engine, not the turbo which would only INCREASE oil flow to the turbo but the oem banjo bolt still limits oil flow to the turbo.

does the boost controller use manifold vacuum to work? that was the section that was dry rotted, not the section going to the boost controller.

fwi, the banjo bolt on the right is the OEM bolt..............not a replacement,
What I said stands. I've taken the bolts out and replaced filters. I've ordered bolts without filters. They both looked like the bolt on the left. I think you are mistaken. Also, the banjo bolt is not on the TOP of the engine, but the back of the engine in front of the turbo. Subaru never put that bolt on the right into a turbo oil line banjo bolt.

Further, if you knew how the boost control system worked you would understand why the line you describe as broken and cracked is responsible for uncontrolled boost. Until you do nothing I can say will get through. However, NO it does not use vacuum! The turbo boost is controlled by the wastegate actuator, this WGA has an internal spring that in and of itself provides boost. Beyond the WGA spring's minimal boost the boost control system applies varying degrees of BOOST, from the compressor outlet, to open the wastegate. WITHOUT THAT APPLICATION OF BOOST PRESSURE FROM THE COMPRESSOR YOUR TURBO WILL BOOST UNTIL IT BLOWS.

Stop arguing and listen.

Here is knowledge about boost control: http://www.cobbtuning.com/info/?ID=3482

Here is information about the banjo bolt: http://legacygt.com/forums/showthrea...val-61689.html

Last edited by SeeeeeYa; 12-30-2010 at 12:33 PM. Reason: links
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Old 12-30-2010, 12:33 PM   #35
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i don't think im mistaken about the banjo bolts.

the bolt on the left is a never installed brand new banjo bolt for the top oil feed line on my new 16g turbo......... which is still in the box and has never been on the car. when i replace my blown turbo with the 16g, i was asking which banjo bolt should i use, the left one that came with the turbo which is prob what i'll use since it came with it...........or the oem small single hole banjo bolt on the RIGHT that was installed on the original vf39.

for the record again, the banjo bolt pic, the bolt on the left is the new, never used bolt that came with the 16g...........the bolt on the right is the one i took off of my vf39 for the second time and neither of them have filters nor ever did.

now about the boost controller, i could be very wrong..............

ok, the turbo has a small line that runs from the turbo pressure side to the wga and is T'd to the boost controller right? then there is a line that runs from the boost controller to the turbo inlet pipe (which is under vacuum) and is why i asked if vacuum played a role in its function. the line that was broken was the line from the boost controller to the intake tube, so if vacuum has no effect of the boost controller, why is the line there? i'm asking because i don't know.

Last edited by jetski247; 12-30-2010 at 12:40 PM.
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Old 12-30-2010, 12:41 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jetski247 View Post
i don't think im mistaken about the banjo bolts.

the bolt on the left is a never installed brand new banjo bolt for the top oil feed line on my new 16g turbo......... which is still in the box and has never been on the car. when i replace my blown turbo with the 16g, i was asking which banjo bolt should i use, the left one that came with the turbo which is prob what i'll use since it came with it...........or the oem small single hole banjo bolt on the RIGHT that was installed on the original vf39.

for the record again, the banjo bolt pic, the bolt on the left is the new, never used bolt that came with the 16g...........the bolt on the right is the one i took off of my vf39 for the second time and neither of them have filters nor ever did.

now about the boost controller, i could be very wrong..............
Sigh....

That "aftermarket" bolt is a Subaru bolt. It DOES NOT GO INTO THE TURBO... it is a filterless banjo bolt that can be used to attach the turbo oil line banjo bolt on the REAR OF THE ENGINE, PASSANGER SIDE, IN FRONT OF THE TURBO. The filter eqpipped bolt has a bump on its top to differentiate it.

As this thread has progressed it is apparent you have mixed the turbo end banjo bolt with the OTHER end, where the filter resides, on the rear of the block.

It is obvious you need to read the links I provided. Seriously.

Last edited by SeeeeeYa; 12-30-2010 at 12:53 PM.
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Old 12-30-2010, 01:03 PM   #37
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no, no and no...................you edited those links in there after the fact

i'll post a pic to show you. i love how you tell me what bolts i have laying in front of me and where and how i put them in the wrong spot.

it is NOT a subaru bolt..........you can't mix the bolt up because the are different size and pitch.......................lol

ok, here is another pic for those of you that are confused.................the bolt on the left was removed from the rear of the block, the bolt in the middle is the aftermarket banjo bolt that goes in the top of the turbo, the bolt on the right is the original banjo bolt removed from the blown vf39. and for the record, the AFTERMARKET BANJO BOLT was never ran, the oem one was, THE BANJO BOLT ON THE BACK OF THE ENGINE HAD NO FILTER since i removed it before the turbo went out.

here is a pic to help clarify everything and you can not mix up the bolts because the one that threads into the block is larger than the one that goes in the turbo. i removed the one on the block and stuck the filter back in just to show you.






Last edited by jetski247; 12-30-2010 at 01:13 PM.
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Old 12-30-2010, 01:41 PM   #38
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When you post a thread with the title, "you won't believe this.....blown turbo pics....How? " and well-meaning people offer advice, you would think there might be something of value in what they say... especially in the face of the egregious misunderstandings you've presented, one of which all by itself would have answered your question. Instead, you argue.

http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/y...-to-water.html

I will be following your rebuild.
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Old 12-30-2010, 01:57 PM   #39
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seya, i just think you missunderstood me at first and the banjo bolt thing, i tried to tell you, then you persisted to tell me i was the one that had the misunderstanding and the reason my turbo went out was the mix matched banjo bolt so guess what, i had to show you what i was talking about.

and thank your for posting the link about the twg and boost controller, that answers my questions about that and could be a very good reason my turbo went out.

Last edited by jetski247; 12-30-2010 at 02:08 PM.
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Old 12-30-2010, 02:15 PM   #40
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I like your post overall due to the fact that it has carnage of mechanical parts and I have no idea what could cause this aside from oil starvation and thrust bearing failure then a stress fracture from the heat of the turbo core spinning with no lubrication. Then again thats a WAG.

GL with the rebuild! Engine ok? I didnt take the time to read all the posts in between your original one and this aside from the lame banjo bolt discussion that is in your favor anyways due to you owning the car and actually removing/installing said parts.

HTA68 in the future? Possibly BNR Supercars rebuilt turbo?
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Old 12-30-2010, 03:39 PM   #41
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i hope there is no engine damage but i did find shavings in the oil on the dip stick..... compression is dead even though, bore scope shows no signs of damage to the piston tops but you know as well as i do, as soon as i get the thing rolling...........boom..........and i'll be parting it out.

seeya may be on to something with the boost controller though. the little line broke going from the boost controller to the intake tube which may have over boosted in the past and just finally took a dump on my way to my parents for the holidays

if it did over boost, the question is, the stock turbo must not be able to take much abuse because there was very little full boost time on the turbo, but would explain the first blown turbo and then the next.

id love to bnr turbo rebuild but neither of my turbos are rebuldable that i know of due to the housing damage, maybe between the two they can?
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Old 12-30-2010, 04:24 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jetski247
not sure if the metal from the intake impeller is lodged in the intercooler or went through the engine, i don't know. i did stick a bore scope down each cylinder and saw nothing abnormal, just carbon.

did a compression check, all cylinders were even but my gauge only read 125psi per cylinder but its a cheap gauge. and i had all the spark plugs out when doing a compression check which is not how we do jet ski engines so i wouldn't think a car would be any different, an engine always spins over faster with other plugs installed.
I was always taught to do it with all of em out....
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Old 12-30-2010, 04:41 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WRX06TR
That's actually a pretty common vf39 failure. Same thing happened to my car around 60k.
common? my vf39 had 100k and a friend of mine has well over 100k on his vf39. this is the first of that damage i've seen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by McKenzie83

he was using the stock banjo...I strongly doubt it was oil starvation too though. I just wonder what his tune looks like and if he really stayed out of boost so much because his exhaust with an internal gate on a VF39 is a dangerous overboost nightmare...at least I would think.
the tune/ecu should protect the turbo from going out of control...but who knows what the threshold was set to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BLK_VR38
Also check your vacuum lines - mis-routed vacuum lines can cause excessive oil pressure....
that's the first time i've ever heard of this. can you elaborate?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jetski247
and thank your for posting the link about the twg and boost controller, that answers my questions about that and could be a very good reason my turbo went out.
are you using the oem bcs or a 3port?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jetski247
seeya may be on to something with the boost controller though. the little line broke going from the boost controller to the intake tube which may have over boosted in the past and just finally took a dump on my way to my parents for the holidays
if you're using a 3port and have the hoses routed in interrupt mode, it's not necessary to vent air back into the intake. just sayin...cause then the rotted hose running from the bcs back to the intake won't have caused this.
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Old 12-30-2010, 04:54 PM   #44
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nhat,
im using the stock boost controller. i put about 35k on the car with the tune with no issues.

what you are saying about the vacuum line from the bc makes sense to me even on the oem one but i didn't really know how it worked until seeeya posted the cobb link and i read up on it.


i did a lot of maintenance on the car and soon after, the first turbo blew, then the second with a total of around 5k miles with two blown turbos and the little vacuum line was the only thing i could find that was out of place.

now i need to read up on how to install this turbo using my stock bc and since my vacuum lines dont match up now since the turbo is different.

Last edited by jetski247; 12-30-2010 at 05:22 PM.
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Old 12-30-2010, 06:23 PM   #45
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Quote:
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common? my vf39 had 100k and a friend of mine has well over 100k on his vf39. this is the first of that damage i've seen.
I've seen a few of these failures on this forum before. Maybe its tune or poor maintenance, I'm not sure.

I picked up my STi with the blown turbo so I don't know the condition it was kept in that led to its destruction.
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Old 12-30-2010, 09:20 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jetski247 View Post
seya, i just think you missunderstood me at first and the banjo bolt thing, i tried to tell you, then you persisted to tell me i was the one that had the misunderstanding and the reason my turbo went out was the mix matched banjo bolt so guess what, i had to show you what i was talking about.

and thank your for posting the link about the twg and boost controller, that answers my questions about that and could be a very good reason my turbo went out.
ya know...I did mention overboosting/boost creep way back when in this thread. you were easily overboosting that turbo, boost control and waste gates are a tricky system even though they're a simple part of a turbo system. Can I ask why you'd leave dry-rotted vac line on an engine anyways?
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Old 12-30-2010, 09:26 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jetski247 View Post
i hope there is no engine damage but i did find shavings in the oil on the dip stick..... compression is dead even though, bore scope shows no signs of damage to the piston tops but you know as well as i do, as soon as i get the thing rolling...........boom..........and i'll be parting it out.

seeya may be on to something with the boost controller though. the little line broke going from the boost controller to the intake tube which may have over boosted in the past and just finally took a dump on my way to my parents for the holidays

if it did over boost, the question is, the stock turbo must not be able to take much abuse because there was very little full boost time on the turbo, but would explain the first blown turbo and then the next.

id love to bnr turbo rebuild but neither of my turbos are rebuldable that i know of due to the housing damage, maybe between the two they can?
a turbo with no leash on what PSI it's pushing could have spun at who knows how many rpm's...and with journal bearings that would definitely cause an issue. How aggressive is your tune? What kind of boost you run? I know that internal waste gate combined with a wide open exhaust system lends itself to boost creep in the first place.
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Old 12-30-2010, 10:11 PM   #48
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the tune is what i would call a moderate tune, 270whp with a ss header, 3" catless turboback and a cai.

i patched the dry rotted line with a double barb nipple the first time, not thinking it was that important.

i never saw my boost gauge read any higher than it normally did so i still don't know if it was boost creep, i wanna say at wot, the boost would max out then slowly drop. i think.....and let me say that again, think max boost would go as high as .14mpa but could have been .12 i really can't answer the boost question for sure.
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Old 12-30-2010, 10:19 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jetski247 View Post
the tune is what i would call a moderate tune, 270whp with a ss header, 3" catless turboback and a cai.

i patched the dry rotted line with a double barb nipple the first time, not thinking it was that important.

i never saw my boost gauge read any higher than it normally did so i still don't know if it was boost creep, i wanna say at wot, the boost would max out then slowly drop. i think.....and let me say that again, think max boost would go as high as .14mpa but could have been .12 i really can't answer the boost question for sure.
if i was still at ft hood i could help u more...
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Old 12-31-2010, 05:40 PM   #50
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Does your header/uppipe have flex pipe? Sometimes they flake apart.
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