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Old 05-15-2013, 04:37 PM   #401
reid-o
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spdracerut View Post

It has to do with blade speed ratio (i.e. wheel size matching) and inertia. Have a read:
http://www.motoiq.com/magazine_artic...p-details.aspx
Yeah I read through that before.
Still the 3576 is insanely overpriced for what it is. At roughly 1800 without turbine housing it may be hard to justify without an exceptional improvement in spool. One can get a 3582 with housing for much cheaper. With housing it comes out to nearly 2.2k. Still I'd like to see how well it performs, but I don't know why Garrett priced if so high.

The 30 series gtx on the other hand is a tad more reasonable.
2.2k makes the efr 7670 a better buy IMO.

I'm a tad irritated because I really wanted the 3576 when I first heard a out it till I saw the price. It seemed like a good fit for the 257
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Old 05-15-2013, 05:07 PM   #402
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I just looked at prices at atpturbo. Looks like the GTX3576 is priced inline with the GTX3582, which is logical as they are the same frame size.

As for being overpriced, well, the price will reflect what the market is willing to bear right?
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Old 05-15-2013, 05:58 PM   #403
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Originally Posted by spdracerut View Post
I just looked at prices at atpturbo. Looks like the GTX3576 is priced inline with the GTX3582, which is logical as they are the same frame size.

As for being overpriced, well, the price will reflect what the market is willing to bear right?
I would think it would be priced based on output or flow rate.
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Old 05-15-2013, 06:13 PM   #404
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^^or the actual parts or labor that goes into the part for sale
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Old 05-15-2013, 08:55 PM   #405
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Originally Posted by reid-o View Post
I would think it would be priced based on output or flow rate.
So a Ferrari 458 should have a lower price than a Vette ZR1

Let's say you make a really nice thingamagig and someone else makes a dohicky that basically does the same thing for half the cost. But people are willing to paying you your doubled price because it's a higher quality piece. Are you going to drop your price in half just because it does the same thing as the dohicky which cost half as much when people are willing to pay you your full asking price? Or forget about any sort of performance metric. If people are willing to pay you a price for something, why would you lower the price?

Like I said, things are generally priced at a point the market is willing to pay for it.
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Old 05-16-2013, 01:28 AM   #406
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spdracerut View Post
So a Ferrari 458 should have a lower price than a Vette ZR1

Let's say you make a really nice thingamagig and someone else makes a dohicky that basically does the same thing for half the cost. But people are willing to paying you your doubled price because it's a higher quality piece. Are you going to drop your price in half just because it does the same thing as the dohicky which cost half as much when people are willing to pay you your full asking price? Or forget about any sort of performance metric. If people are willing to pay you a price for something, why would you lower the price?

Like I said, things are generally priced at a point the market is willing to pay for it.
Since you used a question mark, I responded with what I thought I thought would be a logical pricing strategy. I suppose I didn't understand your punctuation. Yes I agree with you that it doesn't make sense to sell a product lower than market value, and it's in their best interest to make the highest profit possible by meeting market demand (or creating it). Your example (because it uses so much hyperbole) doesn't quite make sense to me, but I get the message from your tone. I think you're referring to commodity fetishism, but I could be wrong. Either way, it sounds like you're trying to correct me, so I stand corrected.
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Old 05-16-2013, 02:11 AM   #407
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What turbo are you currently running Reid? I don't think you would be dissapointed with the 7670 but then again I'm a bit biased.
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Old 05-16-2013, 02:25 AM   #408
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What turbo are you currently running Reid? I don't think you would be dissapointed with the 7670 but then again I'm a bit biased.
I'm on the gtx3071(tried the 82 and 63). I was on a standard 3582 (.82) previously. The results of the twinscroll 7670s are compelling, yours included. It's definitely on my to do list. I really considered the 3576, but the borg feature, performance/price point are too hard to overlook (at least for that turbo).
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Old 05-16-2013, 01:53 PM   #409
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Hehe.. nah, not trying to correct you, just stating the basic economics behind it. For sure, $1800 is not chump change, but if you can charge $1800 for something and people are buying it at that price while matching your supply capacity, then it's all good.

As for the pricing on the EFR, I personally think they chose their price point to break into the market. When you're trying to break into a market that already has established players, one way to do it is to be cheaper than the competition to gain market share. Sure, you take a hit on your margins, but the gamble is that you gain market share and you can elevate your prices later. I think that's basically what Hyundai did. 15 years ago, they were the new kid on the block and to gain market share, they had cheap prices along with the unheardof at the time 10 year warranty. It's what Toyota has done with its hybrid lineup. They have been losing money on every Prius they sold until recently (I think they are breaking even now), but the only way to get people to buy them was to make them affordable. So they lose money, but gain market share. And now they are the gorilla in the room when it comes to hybrids and pretty much own the market.

What A/R did you end up with on the GTX3071?
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Old 05-16-2013, 03:30 PM   #410
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spdracerut View Post
Hehe.. nah, not trying to correct you, just stating the basic economics behind it. For sure, $1800 is not chump change, but if you can charge $1800 for something and people are buying it at that price while matching your supply capacity, then it's all good.

As for the pricing on the EFR, I personally think they chose their price point to break into the market. When you're trying to break into a market that already has established players, one way to do it is to be cheaper than the competition to gain market share. Sure, you take a hit on your margins, but the gamble is that you gain market share and you can elevate your prices later. I think that's basically what Hyundai did. 15 years ago, they were the new kid on the block and to gain market share, they had cheap prices along with the unheardof at the time 10 year warranty. It's what Toyota has done with its hybrid lineup. They have been losing money on every Prius they sold until recently (I think they are breaking even now), but the only way to get people to buy them was to make them affordable. So they lose money, but gain market share. And now they are the gorilla in the room when it comes to hybrids and pretty much own the market.

What A/R did you end up with on the GTX3071?
I have both the 63 and 82, coming from a standard 3582 (82).
I think that the wheel combinations are application specific, as most Subys don't perform great with small turbine or small A/R as perhaps an EVO might.

I started with the 63 housing thinking that the smaller compressor larger turbine combo would be great for the street and the higher shaft speeds, and it really is a fun setup. I moved to the 82 to see how far I could push it. I'm really liking the small high flow compressor to larger turbine combo. The next step would have been the 3576, but since I sold my 3582 housing, I'd have to fork up cash for the new rotating assembly and turbine housing. I've sort of dismissed the gtx3076 in my own personal selection. It doesn't meet my performance expectation, but I feel it definitely meets my economic expectation. Its price is about 400 dollars cheaper than the next step up in frame size which is the 3576.

Quality control aside, your point would have been stronger comparing the HTA3582 to the 3576 in terms of pricing, as I think they are comparably priced and both seem to have similar performance goals/intent.

I agree that Borg Warner likely lowered pricing to break into the market. I guess we'll see if they change the market values or if they eventually yield to them. I don't feel that the whole EFR line is a bargain though. I only think that about the 7670 series at least for now based on the limited performance data out there.
BTW I just noticed this on the ATP website:
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Old 06-25-2013, 12:54 AM   #411
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Hey Jeff,
I am really really interested in knowing how the gtx3076r .82ar will do on a 2.0l STi as opposed to the 2.5l.
I have a Ver6 STi RA and I have an opportunity to buy a Stock location gtx3076r .82ar for a very decent price. I will have all the supporting mods, ie; built bottom end, built heads, link G4 ECU, walbro, ID1000cc, Water/Methanol, ect ect...
Do you think I will be okay with this turbo? I dont want to miss out on this deal if it is.
You can email me at weldonmiguel@gmail.com
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Old 06-25-2013, 01:12 AM   #412
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"Will I be ok with this turbo" is an impossible question to answer. Every person has a different feeling on lag and power. Your best bet is to find a local with the same/similar setup and get a ride.

Just look at a 2.5L plot and add 500rpm of spool and take of 30hp.
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Old 08-24-2014, 02:19 PM   #413
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I have the Perrin Rotated GTX3076R (0.82AR) ~ wondering can I swap in the GTX3576R? [will it be an easy swap mating to up-pipe/downpipe or more than just a turbo swap] thanks
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Old 08-25-2014, 03:32 PM   #414
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Originally Posted by keyser_soze View Post
I have the Perrin Rotated GTX3076R (0.82AR) ~ wondering can I swap in the GTX3576R? [will it be an easy swap mating to up-pipe/downpipe or more than just a turbo swap] thanks
I had this turbo (3576) on the perrin kit. Don't waste your time. This turbo will just increase lag.
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Old 01-06-2015, 08:33 AM   #415
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That seems different then the results most seem to be having with the GTX3576R. Did you go back to the GTX3076R? What fuel and boost are you running?


Jeff, I know back in the day you never tested the GTX3071R. Did you ever end up doing one? It seems the gtx3071 has a better compressor to turbine wheel ratio, much like the GTX3576R. Or is the mismatched GTX3076R still the way to go with the 30R wheel?
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Old 01-06-2015, 10:00 AM   #416
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GT3076R 3500 onset 500whp
GTX3076 4000 onset 550whp
GTX3576R 4200 onset 635whp
GTX3582R 4700 onset 682whp

All on E85. All maxed out 30 to 35 psi runs. All using the .82 ( I do not like the .63 on a 2.5 at all. All on built EJ257 engine using Stage 2 cams and ported heads. This should give you a rough idea of what to expect at maximums using the Perrin Kit and a motor of this type. Different setups will produce different results.


The star is the GTX3576 turbo. It has only slight increase in onset over the GTX3076R with almost 100whp more power. This turbo also makes the best power on Pump fuel at lower 18 to 20 psi pressures where I have made 500whp on 91. The GTX35R takes a 50whp hit on 91 octane fuel but will make another 50whp at E85 at high boost.

C
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Old 01-06-2015, 12:22 PM   #417
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Thank you Clark. Do you still not like the GXT3071R as you never liked the standard GT3071R with a 2.5? I understand the Standard GT3071r flows about 47lbs/min which is about what a TD06SL2 or TD06H-20G flows. Would the GTX3071R which flows 56lbs/min be a decent pair with the 2.5? Or do you still feel your better off with a 8cm TD06-20g unless you want to step it up to a GT3076r which flows 52lbs/min?

I have a GTX3071r I was thinking about building a kit for my forester dd. Or to just run a 20g I have. will be running on 93pump and E85 Built 2.5 with light headwork. Plenty of fuel supply... Man problemsproblemsproblems. haha

Thank you guys for the input.
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Old 01-06-2015, 12:39 PM   #418
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clark Turner View Post
GT3076R 3500 onset 500whp
GTX3076 4000 onset 550whp
GTX3576R 4200 onset 635whp
GTX3582R 4700 onset 682whp

All on E85. All maxed out 30 to 35 psi runs. All using the .82 ( I do not like the .63 on a 2.5 at all. All on built EJ257 engine using Stage 2 cams and ported heads. This should give you a rough idea of what to expect at maximums using the Perrin Kit and a motor of this type. Different setups will produce different results.


The star is the GTX3576 turbo. It has only slight increase in onset over the GTX3076R with almost 100whp more power. This turbo also makes the best power on Pump fuel at lower 18 to 20 psi pressures where I have made 500whp on 91. The GTX35R takes a 50whp hit on 91 octane fuel but will make another 50whp at E85 at high boost.

C
Thanks for the good info
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Old 01-06-2015, 02:00 PM   #419
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The GTX3071 is a decent turbo for a 2.5 with a stock motor or maybe pistons and a TMIC. It has good response. However, I tend to like a larger turbo and more top end. So my choice is going to be a larger turbo.
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Old 01-06-2015, 02:07 PM   #420
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Thank you for the input Clark. Where would you say they fall spool wise compared to the others listed? I wish I could have gotten a GTX3576R for close to the deal I got the GTX3076R for. That's for the wrx though...
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