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Old 01-06-2011, 01:39 PM   #101
LittleBlueGT
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phatron View Post
Jeff,

I dont wanna convolute your data by talking "different dynos" but im gonna

Is it a safe assumption that the gt numbers would be ~370-380 on a mustang and the gtx would be ~400-410 whp.
What Mustang, EFI, COBB or some of the other high reading ones?
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Old 01-06-2011, 01:42 PM   #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LittleBlueGT View Post
What Mustang, EFI, COBB or some of the other high reading ones?
Im surprised you havent asked for 1-4 boost plots yet
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Old 01-06-2011, 02:37 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by Phatron View Post
Im surprised you havent asked for 1-4 boost plots yet
Oh yea, Perrin:


I would love to see some street logs, not just in 4th gear, but also from lower gears, like this:

3076 w/ .63a/r turbine housing (Sponaugle's car, which BTW has a Perrin rotated kit on it):


Also load per gear (seeing that boost doesn't equally equate to whp across different turbos)............equally equate

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Old 01-06-2011, 02:54 PM   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phatron View Post
Im surprised you havent asked for 1-4 boost plots yet
I'd like to see boost versus time personally. Particularly if we are going to compare the GT to GTX...oh if only you could pull turbo RPM. I've become to spoiled getting ALL the data at work.
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Old 01-06-2011, 03:06 PM   #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Homemade WRX View Post
I'd like to see boost versus time personally. Particularly if we are going to compare the GT to GTX...oh if only you could pull turbo RPM. I've become to spoiled getting ALL the data at work.
Well, you can get turbo speed if you install a speed sensor kit. http://www.atpturbo.com/mm5/merchant...egory_Code=BCS
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Old 01-06-2011, 03:40 PM   #106
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Jeff,

Interesting results. Thanks for sharing.

Thanks,
Phil Grabow
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Old 01-06-2011, 03:52 PM   #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spdracerut View Post
Well, you can get turbo speed if you install a speed sensor kit. http://www.atpturbo.com/mm5/merchant...egory_Code=BCS
yeah, I know that but I also know that Jeff didn't jig and machine each turbo to use one pickup

Every turbo we run at work has the data come across a CAN line. So I'm just so use to hopping to that when we are running a prototype turbo.
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Old 01-06-2011, 04:41 PM   #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spdracerut View Post
One difference between the 3071/3076/3582 will be transient response which you won't see on a dyno. So even of the GTX3071 only makes the same power as the regular GT3076, it should have better transient response on/off boost due to being lighter. So this shows up in driveability, not on the dyno. Though, looking at the compressor map of the GTX3071 vs. the GT3076, it looks like the GTX3071 has better efficiency at the high mass flow rates up until they both choke out.

The Cosworth ECU and data tool box looks badass........
Yup that is what i was saying about the GT30 to Gt35. But if the GTX3071 has the same turbine, the weight of the rotating assembly is not much different. With my super precision finger twisting method, i can say that the difference is there, but nothing like the GT35 or GTX35R. I will plot the GT3071 with .82, against the GTX3076 w/.82 i have and put that up to compare.

I know, i should just bolt it on, and go for it.

Yes the Cosworth ECpro tool box is bitch'n and that pic shows just a small % of what i can look at. Then being able to log at 1-1000hz is crazy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phatron View Post
Jeff,

I dont wanna convolute your data by talking "different dynos" but im gonna

Is it a safe assumption that the gt numbers would be ~370-380 on a mustang and the gtx would be ~400-410 whp.
Not a problem! My dyno reads +10WHP from other Mustangs (Surgelines dyno as an example). I have a car i just dynoed, then they did, and it was almost exactly the same HP reading. But i know, there are some that read super low (CBRD's as an example). All i can say is an 08 STI makes the normal 235WHP on our dyno, and a stock WRX makes about 175-ish.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phatron View Post
Im surprised you havent asked for 1-4 boost plots yet
1-4 boost plots coming up! But they wont be back to back compared to the GT turbo. I know i have some good 2nd and 3rd gear steet pulls on the GT turbo, and i will replicate them as best i can.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Homemade WRX View Post
I'd like to see boost versus time personally. Particularly if we are going to compare the GT to GTX...oh if only you could pull turbo RPM. I've become to spoiled getting ALL the data at work.
Boost versus time is not a problem from the dyno runs, but since my dyno runs are set for a fixed time, it will show exactly like the graph i posted. Meaning i am seeing about 100rpm different which is about .25seconds. But on the road this kind of plot would be useful for sure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Homemade WRX View Post
yeah, I know that but I also know that Jeff didn't jig and machine each turbo to use one pickup

Every turbo we run at work has the data come across a CAN line. So I'm just so use to hopping to that when we are running a prototype turbo.
How do you know! Ok, you are right, my plan it to do this and hook it up to my ECU, but its not an easy task for sure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LittleBlueGT View Post
Oh yea, Perrin:
I would love to see some street logs, not just in 4th gear, but also from lower gears, like this:
3076 w/ .63a/r turbine housing (Sponaugle's car, which BTW has a Perrin rotated kit on it):
Also load per gear (seeing that boost doesn't equally equate to whp across different turbos)............equally equate
Who is Sponaugle?
Anyway, the ECPro doesn't log load like the AP, but i can read MAF, and make it calculate it out(one of the really cool things the software does) but i do not have the MAF scaling setup to replicate a 3" MAF housing. So it will not match AccessPORT load. But from the dyno, we can see that for this turbo at a particular RPM, and boost, that it makes XXX HP. So that should work.
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Old 01-06-2011, 04:59 PM   #109
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Why are you still running MAF with with an ECU like the Cosworth on board Jeff?
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Old 01-06-2011, 05:02 PM   #110
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Tuner Jeff Sponaugle from Cobb/Surgeline
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Old 01-06-2011, 05:11 PM   #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kellygnsd View Post
Why are you still running MAF with with an ECU like the Cosworth on board Jeff?
No its speed density, so it uses a MAP sensor for load, but the OEM MAF is in place for air temp readings. It does have a MAF scaling setup, so it can output MAF. Which means i can calculate engine load(same as AP uses) but the numbers are not going to be relative.

LittleBlugGT asked for logs showing load per gear, as shown in that graph, and i was responding that i can but load numbers will be off but relative between different turbos.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phatron View Post
Tuner Jeff Sponaugle from Cobb/Surgeline
That was a joke, sorry, i should have put a smiley at the end
Those who know Jeff would have gotten the joke
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Old 01-06-2011, 05:16 PM   #112
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yeah i thought u guys used to work together.....i was confused
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Old 01-06-2011, 06:13 PM   #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PERRINJeff View Post
No its speed density, so it uses a MAP sensor for load, but the OEM MAF is in place for air temp readings. It does have a MAF scaling setup, so it can output MAF. Which means i can calculate engine load(same as AP uses) but the numbers are not going to be relative.

LittleBlugGT asked for logs showing load per gear, as shown in that graph, and i was responding that i can but load numbers will be off but relative between different turbos.


That was a joke, sorry, i should have put a smiley at the end
Those who know Jeff would have gotten the joke
Are you using the IAT on the MAF for speed density temp corrections or do you have a dedicated IAT in the manifold?
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Old 01-06-2011, 07:10 PM   #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PERRINJeff View Post
Who is Sponaugle?
Anyway, the ECPro doesn't log load like the AP, but i can read MAF, and make it calculate it out(one of the really cool things the software does) but i do not have the MAF scaling setup to replicate a 3" MAF housing. So it will not match AccessPORT load. But from the dyno, we can see that for this turbo at a particular RPM, and boost, that it makes XXX HP. So that should work.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PERRINJeff View Post
That was a joke, sorry, i should have put a smiley at the end
Those who know Jeff would have gotten the joke
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phatron View Post
yeah i thought u guys used to work together.....i was confused
Yes.. I know I have been away from Nasioc for the last 6 months! I do of course still have my 02 H6, plus the 08 STI... Actually I am just about to do an engine rebuild as I have 40k miles on my current build, and I think I will switch up to a 35R GTX turbo.

Sorry for being so negligent in responding to PMs. I have about 50 more to answer this weekend.

Cheers!

Jeff Sponaugle
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Old 01-06-2011, 09:21 PM   #115
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I thought i was going to get creative and grab my WRX dyno plot with GT3071 w/.82 housing and over lay it to either GT or GTX 3076R and then we can see how it spools better! After pulling up the plots i found the EXACT same spool! This made me wonder why this is as the part number i thought i installed was this one:
http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbob..._700382_20.htm

I swear i got this and swapped the compressor housing, but sure enough, i found a pic showing the part number, and it was this turbo:
http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbob...30/GT3071R.htm

Now this is a different car, different year, and there are variables to it, but i can say that the GT3071(with same turbine wheel as the 3076) spools the same, but makes less power at the same boost level (dyno showed about 15WHP less at 6500 to redline)

From this i think we may be able to agree that the GTX3071R vs a GTX3076R is going to also spool the same. I am not telling people to NOT buy the GTX3071, but i am saying that if you are wanting to stay right at 400WHP and never go above it, it might be a good option, other than that, buy a GTX3076R.

Man i was all excited to post up how the GT3071R with 56.5mm turbine spooled alot faster.....
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Old 01-06-2011, 09:28 PM   #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sponaugle View Post
Yes.. I know I have been away from Nasioc for the last 6 months! I do of course still have my 02 H6, plus the 08 STI... Actually I am just about to do an engine rebuild as I have 40k miles on my current build, and I think I will switch up to a 35R GTX turbo.

Sorry for being so negligent in responding to PMs. I have about 50 more to answer this weekend.

Cheers!

Jeff Sponaugle
Hes alive!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by kellygnsd View Post
Are you using the IAT on the MAF for speed density temp corrections or do you have a dedicated IAT in the manifold?
You got it! I have tried it both in the intake and the boost tube, but what is weird, is that i get more consistent AFR's when its in the intake. Dyno runs are good tests as its 60-65 in the shop and i take it outside and its 30-35 right now. So you would think that the boost tube was better, but what would really be better is to have both. The Cosworth ECU has the ability to log ACT and AAT, but i an ACT sensor needs to be installed. I think this is would be perfect. Its possible that the having the MAF in the boost tube isn't as good because its not fast acting enough. But the way its setup it works very very well.
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Old 01-06-2011, 09:39 PM   #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PERRINJeff View Post
I have never hear of EFR, what is that.........
Hi Jeff!

I assume you are joking but just in case I was referring to the Borg Warner EFR turbos which are new and will be the biggest competitor of the Garrett GTX series I believe. Since they feature larger and lighter turbine wheels IN GENERAL than the Garretts I believe they might be better. Just waiting for you to do a nice report on them

Cheers,

Jasper.
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Old 01-07-2011, 11:26 AM   #118
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Someone asked about seeing the .63ar power compared to the .82ar power.

Here is a graph of my car with the .63ar pushed with 1.7bar of boost compared to one of the .82ar runs. Keep in mind these WERE done on the same day back to back a few weeks back, i am only saying that as the power level may not match the other .82ar GT3076R graphs i posted up.

Using this same data and the fact the GTX3076R spools the same as the GT, you can guess that the response of a GTX3076R with .63ar is going to match this.

Then add to the fact we were seeing 15-20WHP gains on the GTX turbo over the GT, you could probably guess that a GTX3076R with a .63 will make similar power to a GT3076r with .82.

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Old 01-07-2011, 11:31 AM   #119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PERRINJeff View Post
Retail prices are more expensive for sure, roughly $400 more. ITs not that much more for something that "should" spool the same and make more power. I mean that is what everyone want, same response more power, or same power with more response.

Remember, we are not pushing these yet, just showing some up close pics, and after testing is done you will have to decide if its worth the difference.
Looking at the dyno results compared to the $400 additional price cost, I think that sounds about right. Good job Perrin, now make one of these twinscroll (preferably the GTX35) and I will be buying one for sure.

Last edited by Spike_916; 01-07-2011 at 11:53 AM.
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Old 01-07-2011, 01:31 PM   #120
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Twin scroll for me is a tough one.

We don't have plans for this anytime soon as it really adds to the cost of a turbo kit. We are able to get you a turbo kit for $3000-ish(street price) and adding twinscroll to a car then means the customer is forced to buy an extra WG, header, more expensive upppipe and downpipe which could easily make the kit $5000. That is a big difference!

The tough part for me is have not seen actual proven gains from having twinscroll versus a single scroll. I have seen some good results but its never the same AR's or same turbos, or headers or any number of other tuning factors. Until someone actually proves it works, its just one of those things that sounds cool to have. I feel that Subarus don't benefit from things like this because of how far away the turbo is from the engine. By the time the exhaust pulse reaches the turbo its been deadened, and slowed down and cooled down, compared to a say an EVO where the the pulses are powerful, hot, and instantly applied to the turbine wheel.

But hey, i could be proven wrong! I do have a header i started to make twinscroll, maybe i will get around to that one day and we can put this all to bed!
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Old 01-08-2011, 05:16 AM   #121
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^^^ Jeff, you took the words right out of my mouth
I also found that due to the turbo being so far away a Constant Pressure turbo (aka Single Scroll) seems to work better than a Pulsed Pressure Turbo (aka Twin Scroll). When mounting the turbo in front of the engine with EVO like runner length manifolds I tend to see much better results from Twin Scrolls. Would be interesting to really have some proper Single Scroll vs. Twin Scroll comparative data.

Jasper Kopinga
CS Racing
Taiwan.
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Old 01-08-2011, 01:59 PM   #122
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I'd also love to see a proper single-vs-twin comparison on an Impreza or a pre-2010 LGT.

I've seen one so far (from TDC in NH, years ago), and the difference was small enough to be measurement error.
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Old 01-09-2011, 06:36 AM   #123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LittleBlueGT View Post
I would love to see some street logs, not just in 4th gear, but also from lower gears, like this:
Heres a teaser......gtx3076....05 STi

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Old 01-09-2011, 01:25 PM   #124
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Come on Ron, bring on the data. 3:36 a.m. tuning session?
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Old 01-09-2011, 04:31 PM   #125
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looks like that will make good power Ron.
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