Welcome to the North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club Sunday December 21, 2014
Home Forums WikiNASIOC Products Store Modifications Upgrade Garage
NASIOC
Here you can view your subscribed threads, work with private messages and edit your profile and preferences Home Registration is free! Visit the NASIOC Store NASIOC Rules Search Find other members Frequently Asked Questions Calendar Archive NASIOC Upgrade Garage Logout
Go Back   NASIOC > NASIOC General > Proven Power Bragging

Welcome to NASIOC - The world's largest online community for Subaru enthusiasts!
Welcome to the NASIOC.com Subaru forum.

You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our community, free of charge, you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is free, fast and simple, so please join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 01-09-2011, 06:33 PM   #126
juanmedina
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 133146
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: SC
Vehicle:
07 FPgreen 7.37@95
WRX VF39+E85 12.0, 121mph

Default

wow Ron I want.... Sweet spool, is just like my green. I wonder what is the power potential maxout on E85? Post the plots

Phatbotti Tuning TKR FTW
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
juanmedina is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-09-2011, 09:40 PM   #127
LittleBlueGT
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 96204
Join Date: Sep 2005
Chapter/Region: W. Canada
Location: Winnipeg
Vehicle:
2013 STI GR
White

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phatron View Post
Heres a teaser......gtx3076....05 STi


Thanks for posting, what temps, and elevation?
LittleBlueGT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-09-2011, 10:00 PM   #128
Phatron
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 36033
Join Date: Apr 2003
Chapter/Region: SCIC
Location: Tuning Lab
Vehicle:
CEO PhatBottiTuning
2006 STi GTX3582 + Meth

Default

40* @ 3000 ft
Phatron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-10-2011, 03:22 AM   #129
NSFW
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 140444
Join Date: Feb 2007
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Near Seattle, WA
Vehicle:
05 Stage Free LGT
ATP 3076, 6MT, AVO FMIC

Default

That looks surprisingly similar to what I get from my ATP 3076 at around 50F and sea level. Phatron, do you have any idea how much faster that would spool at sea level?

You have to ignore half the lines in my graph because Excel connected the end of each pull to the start of the next pull and I'm too lazy to fix that...



And I have an MBC keeping things under about 22.5psi, but the 20psi comparisons are interesting...

2nd gear hits 20psi at about 4400 (slightly slower)
3rd gear hits 20psi at about 3800 (same)
4th gear hits 20psi at about 3500 (slightly quicker)

But, again, Phatron's tests were at least 2500 feet higher.
NSFW is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-10-2011, 10:26 AM   #130
Phatron
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 36033
Join Date: Apr 2003
Chapter/Region: SCIC
Location: Tuning Lab
Vehicle:
CEO PhatBottiTuning
2006 STi GTX3582 + Meth

Default

i dont wanna muck up perrins thread. i will have more data and start my own soon.

the car is back at sea level.....so we will see. it is cooler up here so i dont expect to see a difference.

also, this gtx has the tial v-band turbine housing, ebcs+hallman, and a very nice header, exhaust, intake and bov setip.
Phatron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-10-2011, 03:06 PM   #131
PERRINJeff
NASIOC Manufacturer
 
Member#: 74110
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: PERRIN Performance
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jkopinga View Post
^^^ Jeff, you took the words right out of my mouth
I also found that due to the turbo being so far away a Constant Pressure turbo (aka Single Scroll) seems to work better than a Pulsed Pressure Turbo (aka Twin Scroll). When mounting the turbo in front of the engine with EVO like runner length manifolds I tend to see much better results from Twin Scrolls. Would be interesting to really have some proper Single Scroll vs. Twin Scroll comparative data.

Jasper Kopinga
CS Racing
Taiwan.
Don't we all wish we could mount the turbos on the front of the engine!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phatron View Post
i dont wanna muck up perrins thread.
I did a bunch of 2000 RPM 1st through 3rd runs and the respool time between shifts compared to the GT3076R are the same. I haven't posted anything up as i was trying to figure out the easiest way to compare them all. But here is a screen shot:



Basically i started in 1st gear at 2000RPM then floored it and shifted to 2nd then to 3rd. One way i thought to compare is the exact time it took for 100% throttle to achieve.
During this normal run as well as a backed up run 5min later:
-1st gear achieved 1.5bar at 5000rpm starting at 2190RPM, 2.25 seconds after 100% TPS, shifted at 6400rpm
-2nd gear achieved 1.5bar at 4800rpm starting at 4396RPM, .65 seconds after 100% TPS, shifted at 6400rpm
-3rd gear achieved 1.5bar at 4900rpm starting at 4695RPM, .50 seconds after 100% TPS, lifted at 5680rpm

On these runs you can see the boost is not very stable. This is because it went from the dyno to the road and from 25C temps to 8C temps. This also led me to discover that the Cosworth ECU has an AAT vs. WGDC correction map that is hidden and set to zeros. So you will have to forget the wavy boost.

Then for fun i did it with ALS on:



-1st gear achieved 1.5bar at 4800rpm starting at 2464RPM, .85 seconds after 100% TPS, shifted at 6300rpm
-2nd gear achieved 1.5bar at 4620rpm starting at 4300RPM, .45 seconds after 100% TPS, shifted at 5500rpm
-3rd gear achieved 1.5bar at 4270rpm starting at 3900RPM, .45 seconds after 100% TPS, lifted at 4400rpm

With ALS on its much faster between shifts, but i didn't really do it to the same degree as the first runs. I did this a few times but for some reason i kept shifting early. I will attempt to do this again to get some more data.

I don't have very good comparisons on the GT3076R on the road as the temps were warmer and i wasn't purposely trying to shift hard so they appear worse than the GTX ones above.

My impressions after driving the car for a week is that there is ZERO difference in how the car feels. What i mean is the response is the same in all conditions, and while it made 20more WHP, its hard to tell the difference between freaking fast and freaking fast!

Either way I think the proof that the GTX3076R works, is there. It just comes down to is it worth the added cost. I have about 5 guys ordering kits with these turbos right now, so i am excited see the results!

BTW, i am going to sell the current GTX3076R off my car that was used in this testing. I am thinking $500 off a whole kit using other new parts, or sell the turbo by it self for $1400. If anyone is interested in either let me know!
PERRINJeff is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-10-2011, 03:09 PM   #132
PERRINJeff
NASIOC Manufacturer
 
Member#: 74110
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: PERRIN Performance
Default

I will do some 2nd gear, and 3rd gear roll ons also before i take it off. Just to have that data to compare to Phatrons. I meant to put that in the above post.
PERRINJeff is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-11-2011, 04:56 PM   #133
LittleBlueGT
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 96204
Join Date: Sep 2005
Chapter/Region: W. Canada
Location: Winnipeg
Vehicle:
2013 STI GR
White

Default

Thanks Jeff. I have a lot of respect for vendors that show real road results, where it actually matters.

Then we don't need to guess at what it does vs XX dyno and YY dyno.

Nice work.!!!
LittleBlueGT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-11-2011, 05:10 PM   #134
Phatron
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 36033
Join Date: Apr 2003
Chapter/Region: SCIC
Location: Tuning Lab
Vehicle:
CEO PhatBottiTuning
2006 STi GTX3582 + Meth

Default

jeff,

curious on your meth mixture is it 100%?

and how hard r u pushing the timing? was it aggressive for you shop car....or is it the same as how you'd have a customers car running?
Phatron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-11-2011, 10:02 PM   #135
PERRINJeff
NASIOC Manufacturer
 
Member#: 74110
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: PERRIN Performance
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by LittleBlueGT
Thanks Jeff. I have a lot of respect for vendors that show real road results, where it actually matters.

Then we don't need to guess at what it does vs XX dyno and YY dyno.

Nice work.!!!
I don't normally put up street results because when relating things to power it's always a huge debate. But in this case it works great to show response. But next time I will just do Dyno runs that are shorter periods of time with little to no launch time. Like 8 seconds or 6 seconds. That would perfectly represent 2nd and 3rd gear runs. And make it repeatable.
PERRINJeff is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-11-2011, 10:34 PM   #136
Phatron
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 36033
Join Date: Apr 2003
Chapter/Region: SCIC
Location: Tuning Lab
Vehicle:
CEO PhatBottiTuning
2006 STi GTX3582 + Meth

Default

this is interesting.....gtx3076 vs 1.5scroll rotated 3076

Phatron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-11-2011, 10:48 PM   #137
PERRINJeff
NASIOC Manufacturer
 
Member#: 74110
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: PERRIN Performance
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phatron
jeff,

curious on your meth mixture is it 100%?

and how hard r u pushing the timing? was it aggressive for you shop car....or is it the same as how you'd have a customers car running?
50/50 mixture of meth is what I always use. Mainly as it represents what most customers will use.

I can add about about 2 degrees everywhere or maybe more. When I add one degree it adds 5ish hp. Adding two degrees of timing it adds about 8ish. At that point gains heavily diminish and engine noise gets louder (by logs not my ear).

Would I give this tune (470whp worth of boost) to a customer? For sure a customer that is meth savvy. For sure a crazy customer that understands this isn't for his grocery getter. In all cases only with a built engines (pistons and rods on 08+). The 420who tune for sure is safe and for sure something I would hand to a customer.
PERRINJeff is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2011, 12:47 AM   #138
JKLNHYD
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 255772
Join Date: Aug 2010
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phatron View Post
this is interesting.....gtx3076 vs 1.5scroll rotated 3076
very interesting indeed but what is a 1.5 scroll? full race header with an adapter?
Quote:
Originally Posted by PERRINJeff View Post
Don't we all wish we could mount the turbos on the front of the engine!



I did a bunch of 2000 RPM 1st through 3rd runs and the respool time between shifts compared to the GT3076R are the same. I haven't posted anything up as i was trying to figure out the easiest way to compare them all. But here is a screen shot:


Basically i started in 1st gear at 2000RPM then floored it and shifted to 2nd then to 3rd. One way i thought to compare is the exact time it took for 100% throttle to achieve.
During this normal run as well as a backed up run 5min later:
-1st gear achieved 1.5bar at 5000rpm starting at 2190RPM, 2.25 seconds after 100% TPS, shifted at 6400rpm
-2nd gear achieved 1.5bar at 4800rpm starting at 4396RPM, .65 seconds after 100% TPS, shifted at 6400rpm
-3rd gear achieved 1.5bar at 4900rpm starting at 4695RPM, .50 seconds after 100% TPS, lifted at 5680rpm

On these runs you can see the boost is not very stable. This is because it went from the dyno to the road and from 25C temps to 8C temps. This also led me to discover that the Cosworth ECU has an AAT vs. WGDC correction map that is hidden and set to zeros. So you will have to forget the wavy boost.

Then for fun i did it with ALS on:


-1st gear achieved 1.5bar at 4800rpm starting at 2464RPM, .85 seconds after 100% TPS, shifted at 6300rpm
-2nd gear achieved 1.5bar at 4620rpm starting at 4300RPM, .45 seconds after 100% TPS, shifted at 5500rpm
-3rd gear achieved 1.5bar at 4270rpm starting at 3900RPM, .45 seconds after 100% TPS, lifted at 4400rpm
so if im reading this correctly, the two data sets are from the dyno and then from the road?
JKLNHYD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2011, 01:12 AM   #139
reid-o
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 103631
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Mililani, Hawaii
Vehicle:
2004 STI
Black

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JKLNHYD View Post
very interesting indeed but what is a 1.5 scroll? full race header with an adapter?


so if im reading this correctly, the two data sets are from the dyno and then from the road?

It's basically a 4-2-1 header with the last merge right near the turbo flange and not before the up pipe to try and preserve the pulsing, but it's mostly only available for stock location turbos.
It would be cool to see a rotated version of this however, but you'd end up having to buy the header and up pipe as a unit. Most of the guys with rotated setups run aftermarket headers anyway.
reid-o is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2011, 01:15 AM   #140
Clark Turner
NASIOC Vendor
 
Member#: 178047
Join Date: Apr 2008
Chapter/Region: SWIC
Location: AZ
Vehicle:
02 WRX STI Spec C
Black

Default

For a few years now, 1.5 scroll means a twin scroll up pipe, Twin scroll turbo, But using only one wastegate. APS has a setup like this, Some kits out there are like this. Its twin scroll until the gate opens, Then everything mixes.

C
Clark Turner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2011, 01:19 AM   #141
JKLNHYD
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 255772
Join Date: Aug 2010
Default

if that chart is labeled correctly thats horrible spool for a twin scroll
JKLNHYD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2011, 01:24 AM   #142
Phatron
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 36033
Join Date: Apr 2003
Chapter/Region: SCIC
Location: Tuning Lab
Vehicle:
CEO PhatBottiTuning
2006 STi GTX3582 + Meth

Default

Its a 4-2-1 how Reid-o described....on a rotated 3076

Hallman mbc.
Phatron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2011, 01:42 AM   #143
reid-o
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 103631
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Mililani, Hawaii
Vehicle:
2004 STI
Black

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phatron View Post
Its a 4-2-1 how Reid-o described....on a rotated 3076

Hallman mbc.
Wow Ron, what kit is that that has that design?
I always assumed the reason there were no 1.5 rotated setups, or not very many, were that its' so close to a twinscroll that it doesnt make sense to not go all the way.
I recall that the stock location APS headers of that design made a bit more power than 4-2-1 designs before the up pipe, ala perrin. I was going to get the APS long ago but luckily I waited long enough to see the faulty materials.
reid-o is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2011, 01:51 AM   #144
Phatron
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 36033
Join Date: Apr 2003
Chapter/Region: SCIC
Location: Tuning Lab
Vehicle:
CEO PhatBottiTuning
2006 STi GTX3582 + Meth

Default

it was made by Covert Performance who now works at EQ Tuning.....basically a one off kit....well i think he's made 4-5 of them....
Phatron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2011, 02:08 AM   #145
JKLNHYD
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 255772
Join Date: Aug 2010
Default

that data looks awful from that kit.
JKLNHYD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2011, 04:41 AM   #146
NSFW
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 140444
Join Date: Feb 2007
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Near Seattle, WA
Vehicle:
05 Stage Free LGT
ATP 3076, 6MT, AVO FMIC

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clark Turner View Post
For a few years now, 1.5 scroll means a twin scroll up pipe, Twin scroll turbo, But using only one wastegate. APS has a setup like this, Some kits out there are like this. Its twin scroll until the gate opens, Then everything mixes.

C
You're thinking of something else; what you described does exist, but I've never seen it called "1.5 scroll." I think it was Full-Race who coined the term, for this kind of setup:

http://www.full-race.com/catalog/pop...e.php?pID=1942
http://www.full-race.com/catalog/pro...oducts_id=1942

TS header, 2-into-1 up-pipe, single scroll turbo. That up-pipe design has been around longer than Full-Race's stuff, but as far as I know they're the ones who started calling it "1.5 scroll."
NSFW is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2011, 09:04 AM   #147
wil06STI
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 153228
Join Date: Jul 2007
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: Springfield,MA
Vehicle:
02 WRX Fully Built
Sedona Red

Default

I run a 1.5 scroll APS header and uppipe in my car with a DOM 3 (stock location GT30R) and i see 20psi in 4th before 3400rpm. I will dig up some logs and post some graphs. I can't go out and do a pull with 12" of snow.




Wil

Last edited by wil06STI; 01-12-2011 at 02:18 PM.
wil06STI is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2011, 01:50 PM   #148
Nu-bie
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 205176
Join Date: Mar 2009
Chapter/Region: RMIC
Location: 3OH!3
Vehicle:
2001 Impreza RS
Dirty Black

Default

Jeff,

One thing i would like to mention, i dont know if you had already ben told the same, but i had talked to a garrett engineer and according to him the gains with GTX get smaller with a smaller turbo. What im trying to say is that it may be worth while to test the 35's.
Again the smaller the turbo the smaller the gains, this is why according to him they didnt release a GTX28 cause the gains were not worth it.
Also this seems to be true acording to the diesel guys. When the large frame GTX came out last year, a performance diesel shop tested the GT4202 vs. the GTX4202 and amazingly the GTX made a little over 100 horse more. Even putting a GT4202 Vs the smaller GTX4294, the GTX made about 15 horse more. Maybe something to look into?
Nu-bie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2011, 02:27 PM   #149
AQ Motorsports
Former Vendor
 
Member#: 60836
Join Date: Apr 2004
Chapter/Region: SCIC
Location: Torrance, CA
Vehicle:
2006 Mod Class STI
TIMEATTACK!!

Default

Great testing. I'd love to get my hands on a GTX35R for the time attack car.
AQ Motorsports is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2011, 05:10 PM   #150
PERRINJeff
NASIOC Manufacturer
 
Member#: 74110
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: PERRIN Performance
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JKLNHYD View Post
so if im reading this correctly, the two data sets are from the dyno and then from the road?
The two datasets you are looking at are both road, tests. One is normal, the other is with ALS on (Anti-Lag-System)which makes it spook quicker, alot quicker!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nu-bie View Post
Jeff,

One thing i would like to mention, i dont know if you had already ben told the same, but i had talked to a garrett engineer and according to him the gains with GTX get smaller with a smaller turbo. What im trying to say is that it may be worth while to test the 35's.
Again the smaller the turbo the smaller the gains, this is why according to him they didnt release a GTX28 cause the gains were not worth it.
Also this seems to be true acording to the diesel guys. When the large frame GTX came out last year, a performance diesel shop tested the GT4202 vs. the GTX4202 and amazingly the GTX made a little over 100 horse more. Even putting a GT4202 Vs the smaller GTX4294, the GTX made about 15 horse more. Maybe something to look into?
GTX3582R testing will happen for sure! I would agree the turbos (turbines really) are small enough that the added flow/efficiency from the GTX wheels doing gain quite as much. With the GT35R turbine wheel and housings, there is more potential for air flow(more HP) so the gains could be really good! BUt we will see!
PERRINJeff is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Got some new toys for the car. Pics inside... shady North West Impreza Club Forum -- NWIC 11 03-23-2009 10:25 PM
My new 107hp toy.. short Video inside RC0310 Member's Car Gallery 23 03-30-2007 12:56 AM
My new toy,WOOT *pic inside*. joe r North West Impreza Club Forum -- NWIC 23 10-16-2006 11:06 PM
Imprezaf's new toy! (pssst STi inside!) ZoomnWRX Tri-State Area Forum 29 06-26-2003 10:05 AM
Did you guys see my new toy? I know Goosey has... JGard Off-Topic 21 09-29-2002 11:30 AM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 08:00 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Powered by Searchlight © 2014 Axivo Inc.
Copyright ©1999 - 2014, North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club, Inc.