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Old 02-01-2011, 12:47 AM   #176
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spdracerut View Post
So GTX3076 w/0.82 vs. GTX3582 w/0.63. I would think the GTX35 would still have less exhaust backpressure even with the smaller A/R. I guess this is shown in the slower spoolup.
I would agree the larger wheel does have less back pressure at lower turbine flow rates (which is why it spools slower). BUt at higher flow rates, its holding it back.

Quote:
Originally Posted by spdracerut View Post
It looks like 1.9 bar again. Are you only taking it up to 7k rpms? I'm guessing that 1.9 bar and 7k rpms is still 'within' the map of the GTX3076. So any gains by the GTX3582 will be in the reduced backpressure and few points of better compressor efficiency at that flow point.

To see even more gains, I'd guess that you would have to either increase the boost or increase the rev limit where the GTX3076 would then be pushed beyond its limits.

So I guess the question becomes, was the power gain worth the slower spool up for this HP range? Just a lot of guessing on my part until you post the rest
Yup 7100 is my limit on stock heads, i just don't want to do it. With head and cams i could got higher, but i am representing what normal turbo kit customers do. Plus i think cams and head are overrated until you are really trying for 600WHP. I have seen tons of great results on stock heads and cams.

In the end I think that most customers are raising the limit a little, maybe 7500, but realistically 7000 is where most people stop. A proper built motor can go safely to 8K but even then i have seen tons of little issues pop up like oil pumps fail, bearings, and any number of things. The Subaru motor is not meant to rev so i don't like to rev it high. Damn short rod, and un-freidnly over square built motor.

You asked are the gains worth it..............
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Old 02-01-2011, 12:47 AM   #177
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I posted this on the front page as well so you don't have to dig.

Back on the dyno again finally. I was pretty excited to see what kind of power this GTX3582R was going to make. I installed it with the .63AR housing as this has been becoming the more popular choice lately. My initial impressions on the street were that it's a little laggier, but still pretty snappy. Also I found that on the street it "felt" like it made more power. So when I put it on the dyno my plans were to do it a little different and start with GTX3582R w/.63 first then go to the GT3582R w/.63. Then do the same boost levels, AFR levels, timing and same 7000 redline.

To recap, car has the exact same parts as before, all our normal parts, plus our Meth injection kit, Cosworth ECU, and stock TGV housings. Goal is to run 1.2bar, 1.5bar, 1.7bar, and 1.9bar all at .79-ish lambda.

First run at 1.2 bar was exactly the same power, exactly the same everything except laggier. At these boost levels it was consistently 400RPM laggier. Here is a graph of some runs. This shows the 1.5bar levels of the GTX3076R and the GTX3582R. you can see that on a typical run its 500RPM slower, but when quick runs are done the split is more like 350RPM.



Moving on to 1.5 bar then 1.7 bar I found the exact same thing! Only difference was i added a bit more fuel (no power change). I was really wondering when this larger more efficient compressor wheel was going to start coming into play. I felt cheated a bit so I started tuning the 1.7 bar range. I added some timing, leaned it out, and basically the changes were not worth anything, maybe 5WHP. I put the changes back and hoped that 1.9 bar would show some real gains.

So one last ditch effort, I ran it at at 1.9 bar and guess what! NOTHING!! It made the exact same power as the GTX3076R in all instances and since it was laggier, it made less peak TQ.



You can see here the raw data runs and how they were making the same power. At these boost levels i also did some tuning and found that timing was much more on the edge. Adding a degree or half neted in a large change to engine noise. Still no knock, but again, the 5HP wasn't really worth it to make it that much on the edge. I did see evidence that the compressor was more efficient as i was needing to add more fuel, but not tons.



Here is a nother few runs, showing the GTX3076R at 1.5bar of boost and the GTX3582R at 1.5bar of boost. Its easy to see what turbo is going to be the next popular turbo from this.

The question is why? I am sure there is a bit of power to be gained with the TGV's being deleted (Proving this soon as well), and potentially there is some power to be gained with bigger cams, but realistically it's the turbine housing. In the past with GT turbos, we never really found the flow limit of the turbine housings. In this case we did. Now looking at the Turbine housing flow charts we can see why we hit this limit.




You can see how a 30R.82 flows about 23lbs/min under those conditions and as the turbine pressure raises it hit a wall. Basically adding more exhaust pressure will not do anything for the ultimate flow of the engine. On the 35R turbine map the .63AR housing hits a similar wall at 23lbs/min. This is why at the same boost levels as the 30R the engine wasn't flowing more air making more HP. But if we step up to the .82 there is an instant 5lbw/min of air flow gained from the turbine wheel. 5lbs/min is 50 engine HP worth of airflow so this should net close to 50 more Wheel HP. But of course at the expense of lag. In past tests .82 GT3582R would spool around 4500 RPM and with the GTX i think it will be the same.

In the past we would say that when pushed the GT30R w/.63 made about, 400WHP, then .82 added 50WHP to that number, then a GT35R w/.63 added another 50 ish and then the .82 added even more. But with the case of the GTX3076R it really does fit a broader range of HP without sacrificing spool. The GTX3076R w/.82 AR now covers 2 turbos In the end your choice of turbos are going to be GTX3076R w/.63, or GTX3076r w/.82, or GTX3582r w/82.

From this I can 100% conclude that the GTX3582R with a .63 housing is NOT the turbo to buy. A much better choice is the GTX3076R with .82 housing. Its cheaper and spools quicker. From this I can also conclude that a GT3582R with .63 housing is also not a good choice as the GTX3076R is better, but it does cost a bit more. The only thing left on the table is GTX3582R with .82 ar exhaust housing test. If there was one on the shelf i might have stolen it for this test, but i think its going to have to wait a week. Sorry!

If people are still wondering are the GTX turbos worse in any way performance wise. I am pretty confident in saying not at all. The only issue they have is they cost more. But overall when looking at a complete turbo kit or a complete car build, its not that much overall.
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Old 02-01-2011, 01:11 AM   #178
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Just curious to see what these will do in twin scroll.
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Old 02-01-2011, 01:13 AM   #179
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i am disappoint.

*** tries to change 0.63 order to 0.82 ***
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Old 02-01-2011, 01:22 AM   #180
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i am disappoint.

*** tries to change 0.63 order to 0.82 ***
Me too. But if you bought the GT3582 with .63 to get you close to 500WHP, its right there. If you really wanted to break 500WHP .82 is needed anyway.

If not just get the GTX3076R with .82 housing. That is the winner for now.
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Old 02-01-2011, 02:23 AM   #181
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Awesome Jeff thanks for that, totally justified my purchase of the GTX3076R with Tial 0.82 housing today !!! On a built motor, cams and head work.. yeppiee.. !
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Old 02-01-2011, 02:30 AM   #182
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Originally Posted by PERRINJeff View Post
You can see how a 30R.82 flows about 23lbs/min under those conditions and as the turbine pressure raises it hit a wall. Basically adding more exhaust pressure will not do anything for the ultimate flow of the engine. On the 35R turbine map the .63AR housing hits a similar wall at 23lbs/min. This is why at the same boost levels as the 30R the engine wasn't flowing more air making more HP. But if we step up to the .82 there is an instant 5lbw/min of air flow gained from the turbine wheel. 5lbs/min is 50 engine HP worth of airflow so this should net close to 50 more Wheel HP. But of course at the expense of lag. In past tests .82 GT3582R would spool around 4500 RPM and with the GTX i think it will be the same.
I don't see how you can draw those conclusions from the turbine maps... The turbine itself cannot choke the overall exhaust flow - if it did, we'd be stuck at 230 hp from the .63 AR housing. The exhaust flow that can't exit via the turbine just goes out the wastegate, so the engine can still pump out all the exhaust it wants - as much as the compressor can provide, anyway.

5 lb/min from the compressor would net 50 hp, but that doesn't mean that an extra 5 lb/min through the turbine would net 50 hp. To translate from turbine to compressor we'd need to know how much extra shaft power that 5 lb/min produces, and then what additional region of the compressor map becomes accessible with that extra power driving the compressor.

Anyway, it seems to me that Garrett's turbine maps really only tell us when the wastegates have to open. Am I missing here?
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Old 02-01-2011, 02:47 AM   #183
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So in summary, anything less than 500whp, the GTX3076 is the choice.
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Old 02-01-2011, 02:51 AM   #184
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If youre bypassing the turbine through the wg then you're not doing anymore work on the turbine and thus not flowing more air.....

I believe it's the exact opposite of what you're saying......I believe it's the max the wheel+housing will flow With the wg shut

This guy seems smart....lots of math if you wanna try it out

http://www.dieseltruckresource.com/d....html?t=168543
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Old 02-01-2011, 03:04 AM   #185
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NSFW View Post
I don't see how you can draw those conclusions from the turbine maps... The turbine itself cannot choke the overall exhaust flow - if it did, we'd be stuck at 230 hp from the .63 AR housing. The exhaust flow that can't exit via the turbine just goes out the wastegate, so the engine can still pump out all the exhaust it wants - as much as the compressor can provide, anyway.

5 lb/min from the compressor would net 50 hp, but that doesn't mean that an extra 5 lb/min through the turbine would net 50 hp. To translate from turbine to compressor we'd need to know how much extra shaft power that 5 lb/min produces, and then what additional region of the compressor map becomes accessible with that extra power driving the compressor.

Anyway, it seems to me that Garrett's turbine maps really only tell us when the wastegates have to open. Am I missing here?
It is true that you need to know how much shaft hp is required. I think Jeff is using some rules of thumb here.

But once the turbine is maxed out, the turbo is maxed out. Sure the comp can flow more air, but it won't, at least not w/o more turbine pressure spinning it.

In fact everything Jeff said made perfect sense to me. Sure he did not fill in all the blanks about the science behind it.

If only Garrett had a matchbot like BW does...........................
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Old 02-01-2011, 03:27 AM   #186
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they are releasing one pretty soon....

they are actually holding a poll on facebook right now to vote on the name....
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Old 02-01-2011, 04:04 AM   #187
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But once the turbine is maxed out, the turbo is maxed out. Sure the comp can flow more air, but it won't, at least not w/o more turbine pressure spinning it.

In fact everything Jeff said made perfect sense to me. Sure he did not fill in all the blanks about the science behind it.
I don't follow your reasoning there. If you look at the turbine maps at Garrett's site, they all choke at around half what the corresponding compressors can flow. GT3076 turbines choke at around 21-27 lb/min, for example, and yet the compressors flow around 50 lb/min consistently.

Jeff's conclusions are totally reasonable - they match the experimental evidence. But I don't see how they follow from the information in the turbine maps. I just don't see enough information in the turbine maps to make any useful predictions. They clearly indicate when the wastegate has to open, but that's all I see in them.

If you know that the turbine chokes at, for example, 25 lb/min, how does that tell you what region of the compressor map you can operate in?
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Old 02-01-2011, 04:07 AM   #188
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Jeff, you're right on. There is no point using a larger compressor when the turbine can't cash the extra flow. Normally here we always tend to use .82 housings on a GT30R as well as the GT35R and might even put a 1.06 on the 35R to get it maxed out.

This was exactly my culprit when I saw Garrett using higher flowing compressor with basically similar turbines. I like the GTX series turbos don't get me wrong. Perhaps as you mention the GTX3076R is the best choice there with .82 housing or even the 1.06 housing when running real high boost.

Garrett should indeed have a Matchbot like Borg Warner does. Would make for more interesting comparisons. At the moment I'm still keeping the money in the pocket unless I see some proper EFR tests and decide whether to go GT(X) or EFR.

A Real BIG THUMBS UP for you Jeff. I really appreciate all the R&D and data you do and share it with everybody Keep it going!!

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Old 02-01-2011, 04:09 AM   #189
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They clearly indicate when the wastegate has to open, but that's all I see in them.
i dont understand your reasoning here?

When you are maxing out a turbo the wg doesnt open.....

A wg is basically there to allow the turbo to operate at LOW boost pressure, not high boost pressure.

When I turn my dom4xtr up to 32 psi the ext wg doesnt open.....
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Old 02-01-2011, 04:34 AM   #190
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If youre bypassing the turbine through the wg then you're not doing anymore work on the turbine and thus not flowing more air.....

I believe it's the exact opposite of what you're saying......I believe it's the max the wheel+housing will flow With the wg shut

This guy seems smart....lots of math if you wanna try it out

http://www.dieseltruckresource.com/d....html?t=168543
Not flowing more air... more than what? Garrett's turbochargers are mostly built with compressors that can flow about twice what the turbine housings flow, and that doesn't seem to stop from the compressors from flowing about twice what the turbines can flow.

Yes, the turbine maps do show the max they'll flow with the WG shut. That just means that for the motor to flow more - to flow what the compressors are rated for - the wastegate has to open.

Total exhaust flow = total intake flow = turbine flow + wastegate flow.

I'm familiar with the thread you linked to. It doesn't shed much light on this. All the numbers and math are lovely, but the whole computation starts with picking an arbitrary point on a curve: "...let's select a reference point of 1.5PR, since this roughly corresponds to the threshold of the operating range of the turbo."

So after all that math, he's precisely computed another number that "roughly corresponds to the operating range of the turbo." After waving a bunch of numbers around he's what everyone already knows - a turbine housing with a larger AR will spool up later.
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Old 02-01-2011, 04:37 AM   #191
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If you know that the turbine chokes at, for example, 25 lb/min, how does that tell you what region of the compressor map you can operate in?
As a very rough rule of thumb you can say that about 50% of the compressor flow is going through the turbine at reasonable boost pressures.

That's also the main reason that they choose the turbine to flow around 21 to 27 lb/s depending on the application to max out the compressor. If you want quicker spool and are not going to max. out the compressor anyway because you are running low boost you choose the .63 A/R. When you run more boost you can flow more from the compressor but also need a larger A/R turbine housing to make sure you are able to get it through the turbine. Hope this makes sense.

After I started playing with the Matchbot it just starts making even more sense as here you can see all the values including turbine flow. Perhaps you should try different compressor/turbine combinations at different boost and see what you get.

Cheers,

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Old 02-01-2011, 04:49 AM   #192
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A wg is basically there to allow the turbo to operate at LOW boost pressure, not high boost pressure.
I'm well aware of how a wastegate can be used to keep boost down. What I'm getting at is that it can also let the engine pump out more exhaust than the turbine housing alone can flow.

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When I turn my dom4xtr up to 32 psi the ext wg doesnt open.....
All the way to redline?

Perhaps I am missing something after all. I don't see how 100% of the compressor flow gets through a turbine housing that's choked at 50% of that flow rate.... Going back to the Garrett map that Jeff posted:



The .82 exhaust housing chokes at about 23 lb/min. That's reached at about 2:1 pressure ratio, and no amount of additional pressure will get more exhaust through it. Yet the compressor flows over 50 lb/min, so where does the other 27+ lb/min get out, if not via the wastegate? For your 4XTR the numbers are probably 28 lb/min through the turbine and 60 lb/min through the compressor. Same difference.

So now I'm really stumped.

(And according to diesel guy, the ratio of compressor flow to exhaust flow is actually quite a bit worse than that, due to the heat in the exhaust.)

(Sorry for the threadjack, Jeff!)
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Old 02-01-2011, 04:58 AM   #193
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Not flowing more air... more than what?

Yes, the turbine maps do show the max they'll flow with the WG shut. That just means that for the motor to flow more - to flow what the compressors are rated for - the wastegate has to open.
By "not flowing more air" i meant not making more boost....

If the turbine is flowing all it can.....and then you open the WG.....then the turbine wont be flowing max anymore.....and the boost will drop

Take a gt35 that flows 68 lbm.......and you are maxing it out.....there isnt 24 lbm going through the turbine and 44lbm going through the wg...it just doesnt work like that.

If you're maxing out a gt35......there isnt anything flowing through the wg.

I asked all those same questions before.......and got told i was stupid cause i didnt know how to read a turbine map (guess who?)....i think the lbm just gets broken up into heat, energy, pressure, etc.....IE lbm in /=/ lbm out

Its basically like jasper said....its about half out what goes in.....

There isnt 68 lbm going through the turbine and the wg

You ever notice the big Garrett and borgs dont come with wg's? Many turbo diesels are run balls out at all times.....no wastegate....

Last edited by Phatron; 02-01-2011 at 05:09 AM.
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Old 02-01-2011, 05:50 AM   #194
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got told i was stupid cause i didnt know how to read a turbine map (guess who?)....i think the lbm just gets broken up into heat, energy, pressure, etc.....IE lbm in /=/ lbm out
I'm guessing you got told off by a certain member here who wants everyone to believe the tuning is mysterious and beyond comprehension by mere mortals... And he tends to make bogus claims, but never attempt to back up those claims? Are we thinking of the same guy?

Conservation of mass says lb/min in = lb/min out. Turbine maps are in "corrected" lb/min but if diesel guy is correct that actually makes the disparity worse, not better.

Diesels also don't have throttle bodies so I'm not sure they're useful for comparison here. (Well, many don't have throttle bodies... maybe not all. I wouldn't know; not my department.)

Also - if you run 32psi, your EWG does not open, ever, not even at redline? Did I read that correctly?
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Old 02-01-2011, 10:29 AM   #195
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Ron,

If the waste gate doesn't open doesn that mean that you have a spring that's too stiff that can cause too much back pressure on your turbine wheel specially in stock location setups due to the exhaust housing limitations. I have an external gate and that thing open with my DOM 3 every time even when i run 30 psi. Are you sure you dont have a boost leak that can be masking things?

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Old 02-01-2011, 11:31 AM   #196
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It opens fine at 20psi.....maybe I'm just deaf in my old age.
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Old 02-01-2011, 11:41 AM   #197
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It opens fine at 20psi.....maybe I'm just deaf in my old age.
I doubt you can't hear it even at your old age LMAO!!! EWG is so loud. An ewg opens as son as you exceed the spring rating as far as i know so if it opens at 20 psi it has to scream at 32 psi. My friends car with the PTE 6262 and the 44mm gate opens everytime even at 35 psi so i can't think of an explanation other than you are def.

Jeff,

Can you hear your gate open at all the different boost levels you been experimenting with on the GTX series.

Wil
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Old 02-01-2011, 12:12 PM   #198
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My gate doesnt crack at 30psi
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Old 02-01-2011, 12:23 PM   #199
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I doubt you can't hear it even at your old age LMAO!!! EWG is so loud. An ewg opens as son as you exceed the spring rating as far as i know so if it opens at 20 psi it has to scream at 32 psi.
but you have it backwards.....the gate opens MORE at LESS boost....and LESS at MORE boost......and is thus louder at less boost.

The less boost you run...the more exhaust you are "waste"ing.....so the more exhaust goes through the "waste"gate. The more you increase the boost...the more you shut the wastegate and utilize more of the exhaust through the turbine.

At high boost you are NOT "waste"ing exhaust gas......or at least wasting way less.

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My gate doesnt crack at 30psi
you have a pt62 right?
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Old 02-01-2011, 12:52 PM   #200
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but you have it backwards.....the gate opens MORE at LESS boost....and LESS at MORE boost......and is thus louder at less boost.

The less boost you run...the more exhaust you are "waste"ing.....so the more exhaust goes through the "waste"gate. The more you increase the boost...the more you shut the wastegate and utilize more of the exhaust through the turbine.

At high boost you are NOT "waste"ing exhaust gas......or at least wasting way less.



you have a pt62 right?
Correct my friend.
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