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Old 07-07-2002, 12:52 PM   #1
rak328
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Default dynoed 301 whp w/ Apex S-AFC

I got my car tuned on a dynapack yesterday and put down 301 hp and 222 ft/lb. My mods are:

PE1818
Blitz FMIC
Blitz bov
Blitz SUS intake
STi injectors
AC Delco rapid fire 5 plugs
Walboro 255l fp
Blitz SBC-ID an Power Meter
TXS downpipe
TXS catless midpipe
no muffler
Apex S-AFC

I ran 20 psi on 93 octane with a 11.8:1 a/f ratio. I am still using the stock timing curve for now and seems to be alright. I probably could have got a few more hp but it was 90+ degrees yesterday and the car was getting way too hot. I still have the Vishnu pulley to install and will be installing a fpr to see if I can get a little more torque. I also have the Scoobysport muffler on the way so that should maybe add a little more torque also. I will scan the dynosheets this week when I get access to a scanner.
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Old 07-07-2002, 03:26 PM   #2
Need4Boost
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Thumbs up

Congrats on the 301whp!

Shouldn't you be putting down more torque with your current setup?
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Old 07-07-2002, 03:36 PM   #3
STEALTH-WRX
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yeah where is the torque
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Old 07-07-2002, 07:06 PM   #4
tmarcel
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Ryan - what's up? Indeed 222/ft lb sounds kinda off with your 301 whp. Was that a typo??

I really wanna come down to ATL and dyno my car to see what's going on with it. How much is it for an hour? I ran two back-to-back 12.9's at the track not long ago @ 14.5 psi and stock fuel system. I'm curious what it's doing HP wise!

Anyhow, congrats on the 301/whp!

Todd
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Old 07-07-2002, 07:59 PM   #5
rak328
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I wish I could say its a typo but its not. I need to scan the dynosheets so you can see. How can I figure out if those #s are correct? I made 301.5 hp @ 6662rpm and 221.8 ft/lb @ 6257 rpm.
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Old 07-07-2002, 08:08 PM   #6
Conduit
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This is all to the wheels, correct?
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Old 07-07-2002, 08:31 PM   #7
rak328
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Quote:
Originally posted by Conduit
This is all to the wheels, correct?
yes, to the wheels on a dynapack.
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Old 07-07-2002, 09:33 PM   #8
STEALTH-WRX
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maybe the dynapack doesn't give enough resistance so there is no as much load on the engine. then there would not be as much exhaust pressure and mot making the torque. but then he would have low hp too. who knows, maybe the machine was off on the torque. i just thought hp and torque were hand in hand.
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Old 07-08-2002, 10:42 AM   #9
Death_Adder
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Yep, that's definately off. The formula for hp follows:
hp=torque * rpm / 5252

With a peak torque of 221.8 ft-lbs, even if we assume a perfectly flat torque curve all the way to redline, you'd have the following hp numbers:
221.8 * 6662 / 5252 = 281 hp
221.8 * 7000 / 5252 = 295 hp

So, that's only 281 hp @ your claimed rpm given the peak torque. Even at redline and assuming peak torque, that's still only 295 hp. I'm not saying which is right or wrong, but they definately don't match up.
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Old 07-08-2002, 11:49 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally posted by Death_Adder
Yep, that's definately off. The formula for hp follows:
hp=torque * rpm / 5252

Keep in mind that that formula is not for forced induction. And is also not at the wheels.
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Old 07-08-2002, 12:24 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally posted by rak328


yes, to the wheels on a dynapack.
I'm curious as to how many pulls were made on the dynapack? How did the others compare? Regardless of the hp or torque, were the others also that far apart in HP to torque difference?
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Old 07-08-2002, 12:55 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally posted by SW00P_G


Keep in mind that that formula is not for forced induction. And is also not at the wheels.
That is for N/A, forced induction, alcohol, whatever. It doesn't matter what the fuel or air is. It also doesn't matter if it is wheel or crank. The formula is correct and something is off with this run.
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Old 07-08-2002, 01:14 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally posted by rak328
I wish I could say its a typo but its not. I need to scan the dynosheets so you can see. How can I figure out if those #s are correct? I made 301.5 hp @ 6662rpm and 221.8 ft/lb @ 6257 rpm.
I've never seen a WRX where the hp and torque peaks were so close. Usually, the torque would be falling off somewhere south of 5500rpm while the horsepower is still rising. The only case torque and hp peaks so close together is if the cams where modified to push the torque peak way up to 6257rpm. In this case, you would be nowhere near your hp peak for at least another 1000rpm.
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Old 07-08-2002, 01:28 PM   #14
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Maybe this is all off the mark, but a buddy of mine runs a dynapack at an Audi shop here in Denver.

I've seen some pretty sick hp numbers with WAY off torque numbers come from his dyno as well. His explanation was that there is no SAE correction factor for torque numbers, but the HP numbers always get corrected. They dynapack will lay down raw torque numbers on the graph with SAE corrected power numbers and the graph just plain looks silly. Depending on altitude, the gap between the two may be more exaggerated.

I saw a pretty nutty DSM that traps 115 in the 1/4 lay down 425whp and 250ft-lb torque on that exact dyno as a reference.
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Old 07-08-2002, 06:36 PM   #15
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LMFAO!!!!

You guy's are so funny -

please continue...
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Old 07-08-2002, 07:52 PM   #16
Bigmike
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Quote:
Originally posted by Drugstar
LMFAO!!!!

You guy's are so funny -

please continue...
Thanks for the constructive "whatever you call your post". Anyhow...

Some questions of my own:
1. Was torque higher than 222 at any other point?
2. Was the dyno tested with a reference car (it would be great to test with a stock WRX first)? It seems to me that this might tell you some more about your results, especially if another car pulled such a difference in HP and Torque.

-=Bigmike
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Old 07-09-2002, 01:32 AM   #17
BADWRX
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Well, I ran 258 to all wheels, and only 223 ft lbs of torque. I believe that since he is only pulling fuel to tune, he is fighting the stock ecu's retarted timing...thus giving those low torque numbers. More boost + less fuel to lean her out I believe has much less of an effect on power/tq then advancing the timing and keeping an eye on the fuel. I think that in this case, the stock ecu is your enemy.

I am not trying to be a know it all, this is what my research has lead me to believe. Not a definative answer...but a very good and researched educated guess.

I also feel that the HP tq conversions are crap... Just my $.02 and not scientific.

Good power with just using fuel and boost to tune...amazing!!! I have very similar mods...and am looking into the S AFC for a temp fix...

Andy
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Old 07-09-2002, 02:55 AM   #18
Bigmike
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It might be the stock ECU's retarded timing but then again, how is this explained:
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...highlight=safc

running on the stock ECU. Seems awfully fast for a car that would be having timing issues.

I really am beginning to wonder if there isn't something else going on when WRX's are run on Dyno's. For example, at the BAIC dyno day at ATP, many of the cars (1/2 of those tested?) were pinging at high rpm's. So far, I've seen the following reasons (suggestions by others including Shiv) behind this:
1. No direct air was supplied to the top mount ic's.
2. it was damn hot in that ATP garage.

Also want to point out that normally on small displacement engines it is much easier to increase HP than torque. Basically, your (andy - BADWRX) spread of 258 HP to 228 ft/lbs doesn't seem that wacky to me.

I'm kinda all over the place in this post...really want I'm driving at is a desire to stick with the stock ECU and tune the engine using external controllers like Boost Controllers and AFC's. Why? Because even though I have a laptop (provided by work), I have the following issues:
1. Don't want to carry the laptop in the car for tuning.
2. Way too many parameters to mess with when using a laptop in my opinion.
3. I like the safety that the stock ECU provides by pulling timing etc.. when things are going wrong.
4. I simply don't trust replacement computers...I understand what an boost controller is doing at all times...I can understand what AFC is doing at all times.
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Old 07-09-2002, 08:38 AM   #19
rak328
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I can tell you guys right now that there is no way in hell I am putting down 301 hp anymore. Maybe on the dyno but not on the road. The car is having timing probs with the boost turned up. I am ordering a delta dash this week so I can datalog everything and see what its is doing. I did some testing against my friend's wrx who has a similar setup except for BPM exhaust, MRT TMIC, and he is using the unichip and our cars were pretty much dead even til 3rd gear and he would walk me. My car is pulling timing like crazy there and it feels like a parachute is attached to my car.

Another issue I am having is that after I do a WOT run the car just dies and stalls while cruising back down to a stop. Something is wrong.

I wish the Apex ITC worked on our cars or something else rather than the unichip or a standalone to play with the ignition timing. I also finally got a CEL yesterday so I am going to get the code pulled today and not boost til I figure out what is wrong. I still think I am running pig rich and my EGT's are 800-820c at WOT and 700c max when cruising.

I am also working on getting the dyno sheets up as soon as I get access to a scanner.
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Old 07-09-2002, 11:09 AM   #20
BADWRX
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What are your A/F ratios? I feel you on the timing. Our stock ecu pulls way to much of it.

How were you able to run 20 lbs of boost? When we get around 17.5 plus, we hit the fuel cut like a $hit brickhouse! One car nearly jumped off of the dyno.

Do you have a fuel cut defencer?

Shoot man, as long as your A/F's are good...keep on pouring on the boost...that is how you beat the stock ecu and it's timing bull**** if you do not have pems...but watch those ratios, and listen for those pings!

You have the advantage of being able to add and remove fuel too. that is an added plus.

Good luck, and keep us posted!

Andy
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Old 07-09-2002, 11:25 AM   #21
rak328
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BADWRX - yes, i have the HKS FCD set at 11 so my fuel cuts out at 22 psi. My a/f is still rich. I'll scan my a/f from my dyno run when I get the chance. If i remember correctly, the leanest I get is 13.2:1 at 4500 rpm, its in the 12s til 6k, and in the 11s til redline.

I am still wondering why my car is pulling timing in 3rd gear. I'm afraid to change the afc settings w/o the use of a dyno or delta dash. I am also having probs with my car stuttering at steady throttle around 2.5-3.5k rpm. I think I am running too rich. I am convinced to get the afc to work with our ecu so I'll keep you posted.
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Old 07-09-2002, 12:43 PM   #22
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I am using a Apexi pen type TT and let me tell you. It reads the voltage off of the rear 1v(Narrow band) O2 sensor, and calculates a a/f ratio from that. It is SPOT ON with the dyno chart!

A delta dash would be a great tunning tool. I am considering getting one myself.

My car pulls so much damn timing that I can't even get off of the line without bogging...even from a redline launch! I noticed that if I reset the ECU, it runs alot stronger off of the start, but mellows out over time. Directly the opposite of what it did with stock injectors. On the stockers, if I reset the ECU, it was a dog, and then picked up over time.

I feel that the SAFC is a viable tunning tool, but you have to understand that that it is not static. It has to be constantly tuned because the stock ECU is so dynamic. That is where the DD is going to help you. Tune for the times baby...good luck!

Where are you going to get the DD from? I can't seem to find a retailer.

Thanks,

Andy
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Old 07-09-2002, 01:08 PM   #23
rak328
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I am going to order the dd from
http://www.rallyperformance.com.

I agree that the dd will help with tuning the afc, probably even more than the dyno since the ecu will change a few days after that. I just want to get it tuned and leave it alone but it looks like I am going to have to constantly change parameters to get the car to always run safely and strong.

I have a harness for my power meter and sbc-id that also reads a/f off stock o2 sensor. I just got it and need to hook it up tonight to see if its accurate.

Later,

Ryan
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Old 07-09-2002, 03:04 PM   #24
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Hmmm...Don't see the DD listed at Rally Performance or at Turbo XS which are supposed to be the US distributors. Do you guys have a direct link to a page that has it for sale in the US?

Thanks,

-=Bigmike
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Old 07-09-2002, 03:29 PM   #25
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