Welcome to the North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club Sunday December 21, 2014
Home Forums WikiNASIOC Products Store Modifications Upgrade Garage
Click here to visit TireRack
Brakes & Suspension Forum sponsored by The Tire Rack

Losing traction? Need new tires?
Click here to visit the NASIOC Upgrade Garage...
Here you can view your subscribed threads, work with private messages and edit your profile and preferences Home Registration is free! Visit the NASIOC Store NASIOC Rules Search Find other members Frequently Asked Questions Calendar Archive NASIOC Upgrade Garage Logout
Go Back   NASIOC > NASIOC Technical > Brakes, Steering & Suspension

Welcome to NASIOC - The world's largest online community for Subaru enthusiasts!
Welcome to the NASIOC.com Subaru forum.

You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our community, free of charge, you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is free, fast and simple, so please join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 01-05-2011, 02:36 PM   #1
mesarec
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 259833
Join Date: Oct 2010
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: franklin, ma
Vehicle:
2011 WRX limited 4dr
WRB !!!!

Default Help with affordable brake upgrade to 2011 wrx

I'm looking to upgrade my brakes a bit on my '11 rex. I'm used to my 07 mazdaspeed3 brakes I had that were amazing. I'm looking to get some more bite without breaking the bank. Would just pads make a big difference? Or pads and brake lines? Help guide me.
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
mesarec is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2011, 02:47 PM   #2
chazly413
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 151079
Join Date: Jun 2007
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: College Park, MD
Vehicle:
2005 2.5RS RBP
motec system exhaust-RIP

Default

Pads. I would not spend money on lines, especially so early in a cars life. I feel that most of the feeling from lines are because you also have to flush your fluid at the same time when you install them. In a really old car, the upgrade makes more sense to me because the old lines could be starting to rot out or something. But not now.

I'm guessing you haven't had this car for very long so your fluid should be fine, but you could try a bleed first as this is the cheapest option.
chazly413 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2011, 03:04 PM   #3
mesarec
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 259833
Join Date: Oct 2010
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: franklin, ma
Vehicle:
2011 WRX limited 4dr
WRB !!!!

Default

Ok, hopefully pads make a good difference eventually. Any certain kind I should look at? I may get bigger brakes but that will be in the future after I attend to the suspension as well.
mesarec is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2011, 03:11 PM   #4
Power6
NASIOC Supporter
 
Member#: 72730
Join Date: Oct 2004
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: Wayland, MA
Vehicle:
2001 Lexus ES300,
2005 Outback XT

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mesarec View Post
I'm looking to upgrade my brakes a bit on my '11 rex. I'm used to my 07 mazdaspeed3 brakes I had that were amazing. I'm looking to get some more bite without breaking the bank. Would just pads make a big difference? Or pads and brake lines? Help guide me.
If it is just "bite" you are looking for look into some performance pads.

What will you be doing with the car, Auto-x, Track Days, ? You may not need to upgrade depending on what you want to do.
Power6 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2011, 03:26 PM   #5
mesarec
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 259833
Join Date: Oct 2010
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: franklin, ma
Vehicle:
2011 WRX limited 4dr
WRB !!!!

Default

Just DD. I'm just used to amazing brakes on my old speed3...These brakes feel like my civic..

And the spirited driving from time to time of course

Last edited by mesarec; 01-05-2011 at 03:52 PM.
mesarec is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2011, 03:55 PM   #6
OrbitalEllipses
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 178811
Join Date: Apr 2008
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: MoCo
Vehicle:
2013 Why don't you
just GFY?

Default

The Speed3 has massive brakes compared to the WRX.

A cheap pad that gets good reviews around here is the Stoptech Street Performance pad; KNS Brakes sells them and he's pretty much the brake guy IMO.
OrbitalEllipses is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2011, 04:22 PM   #7
Power6
NASIOC Supporter
 
Member#: 72730
Join Date: Oct 2004
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: Wayland, MA
Vehicle:
2001 Lexus ES300,
2005 Outback XT

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by OrbitalEllipses View Post
The Speed3 has massive brakes compared to the WRX.

A cheap pad that gets good reviews around here is the Stoptech Street Performance pad; KNS Brakes sells them and he's pretty much the brake guy IMO.
The MS3 brakes are in fact bigger, but what is that besides heat capacity? I have the LGT brakes on my WRX, and they are about the same or a bit bigger than the MS3 brakes, but I still stop the same. The extra mass adds heat capacity on the track, not a big deal for a DD.

OP I am guessing there is something else you liked about the brakes on your MS3 compare to the WRX, what was it?
Power6 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2011, 04:34 PM   #8
mesarec
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 259833
Join Date: Oct 2010
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: franklin, ma
Vehicle:
2011 WRX limited 4dr
WRB !!!!

Default

^^^^

I liked the very quick bite about them.barely touch them and you stop on a dime. These brakes I have to put the pedal down quite a bit to get any feel..Then it's like a struggle to make myself stop in time if I don't stomp it.. The speed3 was strong bite with a light touch..
mesarec is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2011, 04:37 PM   #9
2subiesinyard
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 139562
Join Date: Feb 2007
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: Voluntucky y'all !
Vehicle:
2015 Launch Edition
Pollen Green Pearl

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Power6 View Post
OP I am guessing there is something else you liked about the brakes on your MS3 compare to the WRX, what was it?
Probably pedal feel. F'ing dual core or whatever master cylinders boosters in our cars make for horrible pedal feel. I've had rentals that "felt" better because they had single assist boosters.
I hate when I put my foot on the pedal , and the brakes work, but the damn pedal sinks halfway to the floor. To keep a firm pedal , one needs to double pump the pedal to keeep it "up top".
2subiesinyard is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2011, 04:37 PM   #10
scooby24
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 56414
Join Date: Mar 2004
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Olathe, KS
Vehicle:
2004 Forester XT 5MT
PSM

Default

How many miles are on your car? Did you bed the pads? I have about 500 miles on my STI and I had to go out and manually bed my pads because the car wasn't biting. I was pushing on the pedal quite hard and it was just slowly come to a stop. After bedding the pads, it bites super hard now and brakes wonderfully.
scooby24 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2011, 04:37 PM   #11
2subiesinyard
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 139562
Join Date: Feb 2007
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: Voluntucky y'all !
Vehicle:
2015 Launch Edition
Pollen Green Pearl

Default

LOL....called it.
2subiesinyard is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2011, 04:39 PM   #12
rexassian
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 183717
Join Date: Jul 2008
Chapter/Region: TXIC
Location: ATX
Vehicle:
1999 2.5RS
BRP

Default

Sounds like you need to bleed the brakes first. Factory fill procedure isn't exactly known for having zero bubbles. Then, if you still don't like the feel, try the stoptech pads.

+1 to kns brakes ("WRX Brakes" username on here)
rexassian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2011, 04:51 PM   #13
Power6
NASIOC Supporter
 
Member#: 72730
Join Date: Oct 2004
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: Wayland, MA
Vehicle:
2001 Lexus ES300,
2005 Outback XT

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mesarec View Post
^^^^

I liked the very quick bite about them.barely touch them and you stop on a dime. These brakes I have to put the pedal down quite a bit to get any feel..Then it's like a struggle to make myself stop in time if I don't stomp it.. The speed3 was strong bite with a light touch..
Welcome to the Subie mush brake pedal. I am not in love with it either.

I think a set of performance pads would go a long way, they should have the friction characteristics you are looking for. Def want to bleed them as well, to make sure you have no squishiness in the pedal from air in the lines.

Do keep in mind the grabbiness of the brakes are not necessarily an indicator of overall performance, it more reflects a philosophy of how the manufacturer likes to tune their products. For example GM has been famous for sort of "showroom engineering" their throttle pedal response so the car takes off at the slightest touch. Makes it feel fast when you test drive it. The same way some think that a sensetive brake pedal means "good brakes." Not saying the WRX brakes are all that great, just some perspective to consider.
Power6 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2011, 05:03 PM   #14
chazly413
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 151079
Join Date: Jun 2007
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: College Park, MD
Vehicle:
2005 2.5RS RBP
motec system exhaust-RIP

Default

^ This is exactly how I feel.

So try the bleed, and then I forgot about a re-bedding possibility. Definitely try to bed the brakes in.
chazly413 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2011, 05:12 PM   #15
larkdemon
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 260917
Join Date: Oct 2010
Chapter/Region: SCIC
Location: High Desert, CA
Vehicle:
2011 WRX
Spark Silver

Default

You could check this thing out:

http://www.grimmspeed.com/catalog/pr...roducts_id=213


It's a link to a brake brace, strictly for improving feel but not brake quality.

They apparently sold out pretty quick, but the site mentions a group buy on nasioc.


*cough*
http://www.rallysportdirect.com/Grim...11-inc-WRX-STI
larkdemon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2011, 05:22 PM   #16
OrbitalEllipses
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 178811
Join Date: Apr 2008
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: MoCo
Vehicle:
2013 Why don't you
just GFY?

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2subiesinyard View Post
Probably pedal feel. F'ing dual core or whatever master cylinders boosters in our cars make for horrible pedal feel. I've had rentals that "felt" better because they had single assist boosters.
I hate when I put my foot on the pedal , and the brakes work, but the damn pedal sinks halfway to the floor. To keep a firm pedal , one needs to double pump the pedal to keeep it "up top".
It's the dual-stage brake booster. Swapping in a single stage booster is possible, and has been documented. Said to increase pedal firmness QUITE a bit.

http://www.northursalia.com/modifica...r/booster.html

IIRC, you can use the STI brake master cylinder (or a manual GD WRX one will work too). However, it's been a while since I did the research on the single-stage booster.
OrbitalEllipses is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2011, 05:24 PM   #17
mesarec
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 259833
Join Date: Oct 2010
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: franklin, ma
Vehicle:
2011 WRX limited 4dr
WRB !!!!

Default

Ok I'll try both. Thanks...what do you mean by "bedding" it though? How would I go about that. On paper the wrx actually stops 3 feet quicker than the speed3 in testing...go figure, lol
mesarec is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2011, 05:32 PM   #18
scooby24
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 56414
Join Date: Mar 2004
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Olathe, KS
Vehicle:
2004 Forester XT 5MT
PSM

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mesarec View Post
Ok I'll try both. Thanks...what do you mean by "bedding" it though? How would I go about that. On paper the wrx actually stops 3 feet quicker than the speed3 in testing...go figure, lol
Well, first, how many miles are you at? Your pads should eventually wear in. At 500 miles, my STI's pads had not yet, so I sped up the process by bedding them.

You find a nice secluded stretch of road, probably at night is best. You have to be away from traffic.

Get up to 50-60 mph and lightly use the brakes to come to almost a full stop to get them up to operating them.

Without stopping, get back up to 50-60 mph and do a hard stop (without locking up the tires or engaging ABS) to around 10-20 mph. DO NOT STOP.

Immediately get back up to 50-60 mph and repeat this process 7-10 times.

After 5 times my pads noticeably started getting grippier. I did a total of 8 stops.

After that, drive around for awhile without using the brakes to let them cool. During this whole time, the key is DO NOT STOP. By stopping, with the brakes hot, you will transfer brake material unevenly on the rotor when you came to a full stop, and you will have vibration (what some people call warped rotors, in error).

This is why you have to do it with little to no traffic. Can't take a chance of having to come to a stop while the brakes are still piping hot...oh and doing 7-10 stops in the middle of the road isn't looked favorably upon by the general population either.
scooby24 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2011, 05:33 PM   #19
Power6
NASIOC Supporter
 
Member#: 72730
Join Date: Oct 2004
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: Wayland, MA
Vehicle:
2001 Lexus ES300,
2005 Outback XT

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mesarec View Post
Ok I'll try both. Thanks...what do you mean by "bedding" it though? How would I go about that. On paper the wrx actually stops 3 feet quicker than the speed3 in testing...go figure, lol
Bedding is a process that you should go through with any new brake pad. You can Google that up and read all about it, but basically it should give you the best friction between the pad and rotor, which should give you some of that grab you are looking for. Even with your stock pads, you might not have the best bedding, when was the last time you bought a car and they had the mechanic take your new car out and do some stops to bed the brakes...so it is something you can try in your spare time.

I'll throw this out there now, since you will see it come up if you hang around here: Brakes don't stop the car, the tires do. Remember that. The bigger brakes of the MS3 are going to shine on a racetrack, where they will soak up more heat and let you drive faster. In a single stop, whether it is you or a magazine test, the car with the stickier tires will stop fastest. So the 3 feet difference likely reflects the tires that Subaru chose to put on the WRX having better braking traction.
Power6 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2011, 05:39 PM   #20
scooby24
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 56414
Join Date: Mar 2004
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Olathe, KS
Vehicle:
2004 Forester XT 5MT
PSM

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Power6 View Post
Bedding is a process that you should go through with any new brake pad. You can Google that up and read all about it, but basically it should give you the best friction between the pad and rotor, which should give you some of that grab you are looking for. Even with your stock pads, you might not have the best bedding, when was the last time you bought a car and they had the mechanic take your new car out and do some stops to bed the brakes...so it is something you can try in your spare time.

I'll throw this out there now, since you will see it come up if you hang around here: Brakes don't stop the car, the tires do. Remember that. The bigger brakes of the MS3 are going to shine on a racetrack, where they will soak up more heat and let you drive faster. In a single stop, whether it is you or a magazine test, the car with the stickier tires will stop fastest. So the 3 feet difference likely reflects the tires that Subaru chose to put on the WRX having better braking traction.
This is true but there is more that comes into play....how heavy is the car? How much weight is transferred to the front (spring rates)? how effective is the ABS system?

Most tests show that, despite having the same tires, the 2011 STI's have a longer stopping distance than the earlier GR's. My theory for this is the increased spring rates for 2011 not allowing as much weight to shift to the front of the car, as it doesn't nose dive as heavy.

Just an example.
scooby24 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2011, 06:13 PM   #21
Power6
NASIOC Supporter
 
Member#: 72730
Join Date: Oct 2004
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: Wayland, MA
Vehicle:
2001 Lexus ES300,
2005 Outback XT

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by scooby24 View Post
This is true but there is more that comes into play....how heavy is the car? How much weight is transferred to the front (spring rates)? how effective is the ABS system?

Most tests show that, despite having the same tires, the 2011 STI's have a longer stopping distance than the earlier GR's. My theory for this is the increased spring rates for 2011 not allowing as much weight to shift to the front of the car, as it doesn't nose dive as heavy.

Just an example.
Agreed, just trying to keep it simple here, don't want to overwhelm the OP. I would guess the old STI stopped faster because it was lighter and had some pretty aggressive tires compared to what they put on the STI now. Lets not get into spring rates, springs don't control weight transfer.

edit: my bad I thought you were referring to the GD STI stopping faster. Good question why the early GR stopped a bit quicker, maybe the early tests being hatch, and most new tests are trying out the fully optioned sedan make a difference. Maybe the tire compound isn't exactly the same over the years either.

edit2: I went over to edmunds and looked at 2011 WRX vs STI, the stopping distance was 114 vs. 112, pretty close, but we all know how much better the Brembos are, not really reflected in pure stopping distance.

Last edited by Power6; 01-05-2011 at 06:21 PM.
Power6 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2011, 06:32 PM   #22
scooby24
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 56414
Join Date: Mar 2004
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Olathe, KS
Vehicle:
2004 Forester XT 5MT
PSM

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Power6 View Post
Agreed, just trying to keep it simple here, don't want to overwhelm the OP. I would guess the old STI stopped faster because it was lighter and had some pretty aggressive tires compared to what they put on the STI now. Lets not get into spring rates, springs don't control weight transfer.

edit: my bad I thought you were referring to the GD STI stopping faster. Good question why the early GR stopped a bit quicker, maybe the early tests being hatch, and most new tests are trying out the fully optioned sedan make a difference. Maybe the tire compound isn't exactly the same over the years either.

edit2: I went over to edmunds and looked at 2011 WRX vs STI, the stopping distance was 114 vs. 112, pretty close, but we all know how much better the Brembos are, not really reflected in pure stopping distance.
I was hoping not to have to go off on this tangent, but since you brought it up, the semantics may dictate springs cannot change the amount of weight transfer, but they do change the way it's distributed.

Three quotes:

Quote:
Contrary to what you may be inclined to believe, the amount of weight transfer is not altered by springs, shocks, anti-roll bars, etc. Weight transfer is a result of inertia and momentum. These suspension components cannot change that. What these components can do is impact how much the suspension moves in response to the load change, and how quickly the load transfers to the tire contact patches.
Quote:
Roll couple distribution is the relative roll stiffness between the front and rear of the car, and the left and right of the car. In cornering, the front of the car may roll less than the rear of the car. This has impact on how the weight transfer is distributed.
Quote:
The roll center is the line through which the vehicle rolls. It is not necessarily parallel to the ground. Weight distribution, and roll coupling distribution can create a roll point at the front of the car which is lower to the ground that the roll point of the rear of the car. This creates a sloped line. The angle of this line has influence on how much weight is transferred, and where it goes.
A change in spring rates will change the roll line, and will influence how the weight is distributed. This distribution can change the braking performance as well as straight line acceleration. Two values that have decreased on the 2011 models.
scooby24 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2011, 06:50 PM   #23
Power6
NASIOC Supporter
 
Member#: 72730
Join Date: Oct 2004
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: Wayland, MA
Vehicle:
2001 Lexus ES300,
2005 Outback XT

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by scooby24 View Post
I was hoping not to have to go off on this tangent, but since you brought it up, the semantics may dictate springs cannot change the amount of weight transfer, but they do change the way it's distributed.
Sorry, I fell into the trap, no more to say on the subject so we don't mess up a good thread.

Interesting how these topic drifting discussions develop...

Smartguy 1: says "A", a general rule of thumb.

Smartguy 2: Well that is not always true, you have to consider factor "B"

Smartguy 1: But Factor "B" can't be considered without Factor "C"

Uncle Scotty: d000000d you need new brakez!!

Smartguy 3: Scotty is right but he didn't have to be so mean

LowMemberNumber1: He's answered all these questions 23999292 times...

Newb999: I know about brakes and stuff.

rinse, repeat etc...

Its all good, but makes it hard to convey general information without turning it into a debate. Not dissing you scooby24 I get caught up in these things myself.
Power6 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2011, 06:56 PM   #24
scooby24
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 56414
Join Date: Mar 2004
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Olathe, KS
Vehicle:
2004 Forester XT 5MT
PSM

Default

Agreed, get caught up in a few words and it ends up totally derailing.

OP, go bed your pads tonight and see if that makes a difference (provided you don't have like 2,000 miles on it already)
scooby24 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-06-2011, 10:20 AM   #25
2subiesinyard
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 139562
Join Date: Feb 2007
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: Voluntucky y'all !
Vehicle:
2015 Launch Edition
Pollen Green Pearl

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Power6 View Post
Smartguy 3: Scotty is right but he didn't have to be so mean

.
2subiesinyard is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Comparing 2011 STi Sedan to 2011 WRX Sedan DasWRX Factory 2.5L Turbo Powertrain (EJ Series Factory 2.5L Turbo) 4 12-21-2010 08:09 AM
My experiences with several "common" upgrades to 02 WRX glepko Newbies & FAQs 9 05-18-2009 10:57 AM
FS - MD: - H6 / DBA rear brake upgrade & 04 WRX rear brakes MD04WRX Suspension/Brakes/Handling 10 03-20-2009 04:46 PM
good brake upgrade for 06 wrx with 390 wheel godforbid67 Brakes, Steering & Suspension 7 07-09-2008 07:30 PM
Good affordable Brake upgrade? or not tonberryking Brakes, Steering & Suspension 5 10-11-2002 05:35 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 04:33 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Powered by Searchlight © 2014 Axivo Inc.
Copyright ©1999 - 2014, North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club, Inc.