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Old 01-18-2011, 05:17 PM   #1
coondogg
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Default AWD with open diffs = AAWD (Almost All Wheel Drive)

After getting stuck in the snow today, it brought to my attention an interesting question: Why equip Subies with a fancy dancy center differential to split power between the front and rear only to equip the carriers with open differentials?
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Last edited by coondogg; 01-18-2011 at 05:26 PM.
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Old 01-18-2011, 05:46 PM   #2
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same philosophy goes with why do most truck and SUV companies spend signifcant R&D into their AW/FourWD systems to include just a viscious and/or open diff...

the answer is that most of their target demograhic would not benefit from lockers or limited slip differentials. Including WRX/STi/2.5RS owners, who typically will not go mud-bogging, rock crawling, or snow mashing.
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Old 01-18-2011, 05:53 PM   #3
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in the wrx awd= 3wd but the sti does in fact have awd with limited slip diffs front center and rear
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Old 01-18-2011, 06:15 PM   #4
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A bunch of reasons, like handling and so on.

The biggest one, though, is that LSD's are expensive.

Also, none of the base cars have fancy center diffs. The autos have a transfer clutch, the manuals had/have (?) a crappy viscous center.
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Old 01-18-2011, 09:20 PM   #5
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All Wheels Disconnected

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show....php?t=2113953
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=325909
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=273473

Also, Nevets87 - newer WRXs have an open rear diff. Compensated by traction control, but only the STis have non-open front/rear diff's.
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Old 01-19-2011, 01:09 AM   #6
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I have pulled so many older Subarus out of bad situations. I think it's funny that people still believe Subaru's older AWD systems are useful. Why did I wait until 2010 before buying a new Subaru? Because I was waiting for Subaru's traction control to become standard equipment, tried, and tested.

Subaru AWD is nearly worthless without traction control or limited slip diffs. And most of them don't have limited slip diffs. To hear a Subie owner's disapointment on a forum is one thing. To see the look on their face when I pull them out with a Chevy ZR-2 that they thought was inferior to their Subaru, that's priceless.

Sorry to say, but before traction control, Subaru AWD was crap in bad weather or offroad conditions. It was created more for overall handling than for that stuff. And in that regard, it does very well. A Subaru feels so much better than any front wheel drive of the same time period in overall handling.

But traction control changed everything, and finally allows Subaru's AWD to work much better in rough situations. It's still not nearly as good traction-wise as my ZR-2 with locking diff and low range, but it will get you through most situations now.
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Old 01-19-2011, 06:46 AM   #7
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^^^ Talking out of his arse......
Go to www.ultimatesubaru.org and get a clue.


Jay
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Old 01-19-2011, 08:26 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluefoton View Post
All Wheels Disconnected
^ win!
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Old 01-19-2011, 09:15 AM   #9
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Tires and driving ability are more important than diffs in snow situation. I find that the only time Ive EVER been stuck in a subaru is in very deep heavy snow, it will get crammed up underneath and lift the wheels. All the talk about LSD and traction control is great, but not needed.
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Old 01-19-2011, 10:28 AM   #10
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I agree with JoshP on this. It's all about tires.

P.S.
You'll probably be turning off traction control when you get stuck in any vehicle equipped with it.
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Old 01-19-2011, 11:07 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coondogg View Post
After getting stuck in the snow today...
How did you do that? Subaru's AWD system isn't magic - if you take the car some place it shouldn't go, you can still get stuck. You may recall the national news story a few years back about a family getting stuck in the mountains, father went for help and died - they were driving a WRX wagon or OBS based on pictures I saw at the time.

I came close to getting stuck once, but managed to work my way free after a few minutes. I certainly wouldn't try to navigate really deep snow in the car, particular the sort of wet, heavy snow we typically get in southern New England and down the East Coast. But I've been through 6-8" without getting stuck.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LonelyHiker View Post
I have pulled so many older Subarus out of bad situations.
And I've seen plenty of 4WD/AWD SUVs and pick-ups wiped out on the side of the road or rolled onto their roof in the snow. What's your point?

Quote:
Originally Posted by LonelyHiker View Post
Subaru AWD is nearly worthless without traction control or limited slip diffs.
There are an awful lot of Subaru drivers who go out specifically to play in the snow and have no issues who would disagree with you on that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LonelyHiker View Post
To see the look on their face when I pull them out with a Chevy ZR-2 that they thought was inferior to their Subaru, that's priceless.
Obviously those people weren't made aware of the dominance that is the ZR2 package.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LonelyHiker View Post
Sorry to say, but before traction control, Subaru AWD was crap in bad weather or offroad conditions.
I'll agree that it's not so good for offroad conditions, but the ground clearance of Subarus in general makes it pretty clear they're not intended to be offroaders.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LonelyHiker View Post
It was created more for overall handling than for that stuff. And in that regard, it does very well. A Subaru feels so much better than any front wheel drive of the same time period in overall handling.
Uhhhhh.... no.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LonelyHiker View Post
It's still not nearly as good traction-wise as my ZR-2 with locking diff and low range...
Really? An AWD system designed for on-road use with no low range isn't as capable as your 4WD system with locking diffs and low range? Wow, who would've guessed that?!?!
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Old 01-19-2011, 11:14 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluefoton View Post
All Wheels Disconnected

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show....php?t=2113953
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=325909
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=273473

Also, Nevets87 - newer WRXs have an open rear diff. Compensated by traction control, but only the STis have non-open front/rear diff's.
No totally true, Saabaru 92x Aero's have the LSD front and rear AFAIK
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Old 01-19-2011, 11:40 AM   #13
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How did you do that?
Very easily. One front wheel without traction and one rear wheel without traction and you're going no where. That DOES NOT EQUAL AWD. The fact is: AWD can never be established with open differentials. Just seems a waste to even equip a vehicle with a center differential and the POTENTIAL of AWD.

Some have mentioned the COST of the LSD as the reason that it was obmitted in some of the models but lets be honest, how much do you think a car manufacture pays for those LSD? $400-600 range as the retail aftermarket prices demand? Gimmy a break, they are probably paying $150-200 range for a LSD (just a guess). Their cost for an open diff is $50-100 range (just a guess). The cost of installation is the same as an open diff. So, there might be a difference of $50 to $150 per carrier to install a LSD vs an open diff. Really? LSD should have been there in the first place...
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Old 01-19-2011, 11:57 AM   #14
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Old 01-19-2011, 12:22 PM   #15
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Is that video supposed to make your point about how bad subaru AWD is?
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Old 01-19-2011, 12:34 PM   #16
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nope, pathetic attempts at awd that also don't work...
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Old 01-19-2011, 12:41 PM   #17
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It seems that the video makes Subaru stand out against all the other competitors in the video. I really wish they did a vehicle with Acura's SH-AWD. The other competitors in the video all seemed to have "Fail Wheel-Drive"
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Old 01-19-2011, 12:46 PM   #18
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Well, two factors that stand out about the vid: it is that its old, also it is done to highlight the new style of Subaru's TRUE AWD.

My attempt isn't just to bash any specific manufacture but to completely call bullshiet to anyone's claim of AWD that really isn't...
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Old 01-19-2011, 12:53 PM   #19
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I mean I agree with what you're saying, but it depends on what your definition of bull**** is. Does AWD make a difference in the wet? Sure. Does it make a difference in the snow? Sure. Is it always going to save your ass? No. You prevent this by avoiding situations that are unnecessary.

It's not invincible, it's still something you have to think about when you're going into situations. Those trucks with lo-range and locking diffs can still get stuck.
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Old 01-19-2011, 01:03 PM   #20
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You want TRUE AWD?

Here's TRUE AWD



Locking diffs or whatever, it would be difficult to call any car having a TRUEST OF TRUE AWD. Like some sort of magical sword or something....

The fact is that you paid for the lowest trim for the Impreza model. If Subaru wants to include AWD and the Boxer (not sure how much more expensive boxer is in comparison to other engine types, but I assume more due to more material used) they're going to have to cut some stuff out in order to keep the prices affordable. Namely, stuff like LSDs and expensive DCCDs and such. You might also notice that the interior isn't as spiffy as other cars of the same price range.

So deal with it or get a Saabaru or an older STi.
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Old 01-19-2011, 01:49 PM   #21
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why don't you list what kind of tires you are running? I have gone through pretty bad winters with 6-12inches of snow in my wrx in blizzaks before and I have never been stuck once. I seen plenty of SUVs getting stuck though.
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Old 01-19-2011, 02:16 PM   #22
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Tires are irrelevant to a discussion of calling a vehicle AWD just cause it has a center differential...
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Old 01-19-2011, 02:18 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by formula91 View Post
The fact is that you paid for the lowest trim for the Impreza model. If Subaru wants to include AWD and the Boxer (not sure how much more expensive boxer is in comparison to other engine types, but I assume more due to more material used) they're going to have to cut some stuff out in order to keep the prices affordable. Namely, stuff like LSDs and expensive DCCDs and such.
Quote:
Some have mentioned the COST of the LSD as the reason that it was obmitted in some of the models but lets be honest, how much do you think a car manufacture pays for those LSD? $400-600 range as the retail aftermarket prices demand? Gimmy a break, they are probably paying $150-200 range for a LSD (just a guess). Their cost for an open diff is $50-100 range (just a guess). The cost of installation is the same as an open diff. So, there might be a difference of $50 to $150 per carrier to install a LSD vs an open diff. Really? LSD should have been there in the first place...
Has nothing to do with Subaru, this is general to all manufactures that claim AWD just cause of a center differential...

Quote:
Originally Posted by formula91 View Post
You want TRUE AWD?
No, I want a claim of AWD to really BE AWD...
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Old 01-19-2011, 02:38 PM   #24
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I'm literally laughing my azz off at the responses that have NO barring on the original post.
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Old 01-19-2011, 03:57 PM   #25
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In the end, if you had good snow tires you would not have gotten stuck there. Blame the car all you want pal, but snow tires are far from irrelevant in New England winters.
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