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Old 01-31-2011, 12:09 PM   #1
SEMA Action Network
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Exclamation Important Legislative/Regulatory Information Facing Auto Hobbyists!

In an effort to spread the word about the SEMA Action Network (SAN) and our mission to defend the hobby from unfair laws and regulations, we are creating this thread to be a one-stop-shop for information. Please check back regularly to learn about issues not only in your area, but effecting enthusiasts across the U.S. and Canada.

Many have heard of SEMA but have not heard of SAN. We are the partnership between car clubs, individual enthusiasts, and the specialty parts industry that work together to impact legislation/regulation that effects the hobby, both good and bad. We work to defeat legislation that would prove detrimental to the hobby's various niches and strive to promote pro-active policies to ensure the preservation of the hobby.

SAN cannot do it alone, however. We need enthusiasts like you to spread the word about SAN and to encourage others to join. Becoming a member of SAN will arm you with the knowledge and means to stand up for the hobby on Capitol Hill and in state houses across the country. SAN members receive great informational tools like the monthly newsletter, “The Driving Force,” up-to-the-minute legislative updates, tips to voice your support for the auto hobby, special invitations and much more! Please be sure to visit www.semasan.com/san/join.aspx to enroll and remember to spread the word! Joining SAN is free, carries no obligations, commitments, or hassles.
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Last edited by SEMA Action Network; 01-31-2011 at 12:17 PM.
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Old 01-31-2011, 12:26 PM   #2
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I took a look. and really?

really?

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In another misguided attempt to reduce greenhouse gas emissions, legislation (A.B. 1318) has been reintroduced in the New York State Assembly to establish a progressive purchase surcharge for some new motor vehicles based on state calculations of carbon emissions. Depending on the vehicle purchased, this surcharge could require owners to pay up to $2,500 more for the vehicle. Funds collected under the program would be used in part to fund discounts for hybrids and electric cars. If this effort is successful, the effects on your ability to purchase the vehicle of your choice, not to mention vehicle safety, will be dramatic.
reasons you put for people to contact the legislature and push against this...

Quote:
# A.B 1318 will limit consumer choice in purchasing vehicles by making popular performance and luxury cars, as well as SUVs, light trucks and minivans, substantially more expensive to own.

# A.B. 1318 will potentially lead to more deaths on New York’s highways as higher taxes on larger, safer vehicles forces consumers into smaller cars with higher accident fatality rates.

# A.B. 1318 will not conserve energy. Greenhouse gas emissions depends on a host of other factors such as total miles traveled.

# A.B. 1318 will do little to improve air quality. Air quality has more to do with overall basic vehicle maintenance than it does with owning and operating any particular class of vehicle.
as a person who is a car enthusiast, reading crap like this makes me wonder what the real goal of this lobby is.

especially the underlined. I mean, duh, vehicle miles makes a difference from driver to driver, but if a single driver is going to travel 100 miles a day regardless what is the point?

Last edited by samagon; 01-31-2011 at 01:25 PM.
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Old 01-31-2011, 12:36 PM   #3
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I'm a member and get email updates from time to time. It is very interesting to hear some of the proposed legislation that other wise you wouldn't hear about. Plus you get to hear what passes and what doesn't.

Some the proposed legislature really makes you ask, why?
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Old 01-31-2011, 12:53 PM   #4
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I'm a member and get email updates from time to time. It is very interesting to hear some of the proposed legislation that other wise you wouldn't hear about. Plus you get to hear what passes and what doesn't.

Some the proposed legislature really makes you ask, why?
Thank you for being a member and for your activism on behalf of the hobby. Efforts like yours will help ensure the future of our hobby for generations to come. Please be sure to spread the word about us to your family, friends, and fellow enthusiasts!

Unfortunately, alot of the bad legislation is mis-informed legislation. That's where we come in. We work with the parties involved to strike out a compromise that works best for enthusiasts in-mind.
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Old 01-31-2011, 12:57 PM   #5
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samagon:

Are you sure you meant to say "what the real goal of this lobby is" or "what the real goal of this legislation is?" I can tell you that we are here for the hobby and the enthusiast. The economic state of affairs has forced states, like New York, to look for new revenue streams. We certainly don't believe that budget sheets should be balanced on the backs of enthusiasts. By implementing a further tax on these vehicles, Albany is going to limit consumer choice and drive purchasers to vehicles they don't want. It is ill-conceived and will do nothing to curb emissions or energy use.
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Old 01-31-2011, 01:31 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SEMA Action Network View Post
samagon:

Are you sure you meant to say "what the real goal of this lobby is" or "what the real goal of this legislation is?" I can tell you that we are here for the hobby and the enthusiast. The economic state of affairs has forced states, like New York, to look for new revenue streams. We certainly don't believe that budget sheets should be balanced on the backs of enthusiasts. By implementing a further tax on these vehicles, Albany is going to limit consumer choice and drive purchasers to vehicles they don't want. It is ill-conceived and will do nothing to curb emissions or energy use.
I get it, follow the $$.

I mean NY just passed legislation that says people can't use e-cigs for some really really stupid reasons, for anyone who has ever smoked a real cig, and then smoked an e-cig, it is pretty clear that an e-cig is healthier for a person, but if a person doesn't buy real smokes, they aren't paying that nice tax. we'd rather see people die and collect tax, than help them be healthier.

but, regarding the legislation I referenced, the reasons your group has cited for being against the legislation are extremely bad. safety? really? big cars are NOT safer than small ones, and trying to beat one piece of legislation by saying so, is very risky, as what happens when they introduce legislation that says, we need bigger vehicles, and then they use your own words against you?? That is a very bad thing.
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Old 01-31-2011, 01:55 PM   #7
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Without entities like the SAN, we'll all be piloting lame bubble pods
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Old 01-31-2011, 02:09 PM   #8
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I get it, follow the $$.

I mean NY just passed legislation that says people can't use e-cigs for some really really stupid reasons, for anyone who has ever smoked a real cig, and then smoked an e-cig, it is pretty clear that an e-cig is healthier for a person, but if a person doesn't buy real smokes, they aren't paying that nice tax. we'd rather see people die and collect tax, than help them be healthier.

but, regarding the legislation I referenced, the reasons your group has cited for being against the legislation are extremely bad. safety? really? big cars are NOT safer than small ones, and trying to beat one piece of legislation by saying so, is very risky, as what happens when they introduce legislation that says, we need bigger vehicles, and then they use your own words against you?? That is a very bad thing.
If you were t-boned at an intersection by a city bus, what would you rather be in? A Smart Car or a Hummer?
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Old 01-31-2011, 02:26 PM   #9
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i'd say smart car. smaller target to hit, which means i can probably get out of the way. Plus the hummer takes forever to move or slow, which would mean chances of getting hit by the bus are higher.
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Old 01-31-2011, 02:32 PM   #10
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Global warming has been happening for over 10,000 years now and has been mostly beneficial as opened new farm lands and living space.
The new spaces that were once covered by ice sheets are most of Europe, Sweden, London, Moscow, Beijing,Tokyo and close to home Chicago and great plains, Toronto and Yes even New York city was covered by an ice sheet, The real issue here is greed for C02 taxes based on false science.
meanwhile our politicians fly private jets that make more CO2 than a city will in a year.The most powerful greenhouse gas is water vapor followed by methane.
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Old 01-31-2011, 04:03 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by SEMA Action Network View Post
If you were t-boned at an intersection by a city bus, what would you rather be in? A Smart Car or a Hummer?
What about....would you rather get HIT by a Smart Car or a Hummer?

So the solution is clearly not "everyone buy Hummers."

Most enthusiasts drive "small" (not Smart) cars anyway. The SEMA Action Network should try to be more productive rather than looking silly with ridiculous, backwards, comments on something that is bound to happen eventually. Work with them, don't dig your heels in and get laughed at as the legislation passes you by.

Last edited by AndyRoo; 01-31-2011 at 04:29 PM. Reason: fine, deleted my snotty/snobby comment.
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Old 01-31-2011, 04:07 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyRoo View Post
What about....would you rather get HIT by a Smart Car or a Hummer?

So the solution is clearly not "everyone buy Hummers."

And don't comment on global warming unless you are a scientist.

Most enthusiasts drive "small" (not Smart) cars anyway. The SEMA Action Network should try to be more productive rather than looking silly with ridiculous, backwards, comments on something that is bound to happen eventually. Work with them, don't dig your heels in and get laughed at as the legislation passes you by.
Don't comment on collisions unless you're an engineer.
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Old 01-31-2011, 04:09 PM   #13
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touche.
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Old 01-31-2011, 04:14 PM   #14
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Telling people not to comment is problematic, and stifles discussion.

If someone doesn't have credentials, you are free to interpret their commentary as such.

but telling people not to say anything can be turned around on you, too.

There is plenty of hyperbole to go around.

And the government has a history of being heavy-handed, and not particularly aware of, or concerned with unintended consequences, which is why the constitution was written to limit the government, not to limit the people.

If given a quick choice, I will always give the benefit of the doubt to the party OTHER than the government. The government has screwed up far too often, with very little consequence to them... and a lot of consequences for us, monetarily, and with the limitation of our freedom by way of regulation that has nothing to do with prosecuting criminal behavior or protecting people from crime.
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Old 01-31-2011, 04:25 PM   #15
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I agree with you for the most part, but climate science is complicated and easily twisted (yes potentially by both sides).

As for this topic, I tend to err on the side that does not make comments like:
"# A.B. 1318 will not conserve energy. Greenhouse gas emissions depends on a host of other factors such as total miles traveled. "

Last edited by AndyRoo; 01-31-2011 at 05:09 PM.
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Old 01-31-2011, 04:27 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by AndyRoo View Post
What about....would you rather get HIT by a Smart Car or a Hummer?

So the solution is clearly not "everyone buy Hummers."

And don't comment on global warming unless you are a scientist.

Most enthusiasts drive "small" (not Smart) cars anyway. The SEMA Action Network should try to be more productive rather than looking silly with ridiculous, backwards, comments on something that is bound to happen eventually. Work with them, don't dig your heels in and get laughed at as the legislation passes you by.
Gotta agree with this guy.

Quote:
# A.B. 1318 will potentially lead to more deaths on New York’s highways as higher taxes on larger, safer vehicles forces consumers into smaller cars with higher accident fatality rates.
Fear-mongering makes it sound like a desperate cause. Focus on the facts and let people make their own decisions.
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Old 01-31-2011, 04:31 PM   #17
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there isn't really much of a decision for people to make. Unless SAN can pay off the right people the legislators will do what ever they think is best for their chances at re-election/maintaining control.
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Old 01-31-2011, 04:54 PM   #18
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We don't pay off anyone. We work with all lawmakers, regardless of party, to make sure enthusiast concerns are addressed.
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Old 01-31-2011, 04:56 PM   #19
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Eh, you gotta pay to play. The following link, for example, shows a bill that seems like it lets antique car owners skirt taxes that the average joe gets to pay in WV. Why should collector car owners get preferential treatment? http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show....php?t=2119864

If I get to pay over $200/year in personal property taxes for something that is actually used to get me to and from work, you can do the same for your garage queen. When I had 3 cars (all newer than 2005), I paid property taxes on all of them. You can too. How many owners of collector cars can't afford to pay taxes on their toys like the rest of us pay for our normal cars?
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Old 01-31-2011, 05:10 PM   #20
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I will say that I support some things that SEMA does, most notably opposing E15, but this ain't one of them.
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Old 01-31-2011, 05:13 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SEMA Action Network View Post
We don't pay off anyone. We work with all lawmakers, regardless of party, to make sure enthusiast concerns are addressed.
I find it hard to believe that the US Congress isn't bought and sold on a day to day basis. I'm all for what you're doing, thanks for looking out for us.
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Old 01-31-2011, 05:52 PM   #22
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@Quentinberg,

Because normal cars are not toys, and toys are not normal cars.

Chances are there are mileage and age restrictions on the cars that qualify for tax exemptions.

If hobby cars were taxed at the same rate, nobody would incur that cost, just for fun. Why should the government choose what hobbies people should have by onerous taxation, or other regulation?

And frankly, property taxes are far too onerous as it is. Government is not supposed to be people's parent, nor taking ever more of people's money to control people's choices or behaviors.

You gotta pay, simply because the rule makers say so. It is legalized extortion, because the government makes the rules to say what extortion is or isn't, even if the effects are the same. There is so much graft or outright waste in most government programs, that the mob wishes it could collect and spend money the way the government does.

"A government is only a group of people, most notably, ungoverned."
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Old 01-31-2011, 06:05 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by HipToBeSquare View Post
@Quentinberg,

Because normal cars are not toys, and toys are not normal cars.

Chances are there are mileage and age restrictions on the cars that qualify for tax exemptions.

If hobby cars were taxed at the same rate, nobody would incur that cost, just for fun. Why should the government choose what hobbies people should have by onerous taxation, or other regulation?

And frankly, property taxes are far too onerous as it is. Government is not supposed to be people's parent, nor taking ever more of people's money to control people's choices or behaviors.

You gotta pay, simply because the rule makers say so. It is legalized extortion, because the government makes the rules to say what extortion is or isn't, even if the effects are the same. There is so much graft or outright waste in most government programs, that the mob wishes it could collect and spend money the way the government does.

"A government is only a group of people, most notably, ungoverned."
Why shouldn't taxes on cars be the same methodology across the board? I didn't say that property taxes were right or wrong. I think that if you have a car, regardless of age or mileage driven, it is treated like every other non-commercial/industrial car on the road to be registered for on-road use. If you choose to have a hobby car, it is still a car.
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Old 01-31-2011, 06:46 PM   #24
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Should your house be taxed at the same rate as if you had a commercial property, or owned rental real estate for other people to live in? Your house as your primary residence usually gets a homestead exemption, because you are not making money on it, but using it to house yourself. It is a different use.

Because not all cars are used for the same purposes, nor with the same frequency. A hobby car usually sees a small fraction of the road use that a regular commuter and daily use car does. Just it's existence as a car doesn't impact the state. it's usage on public infrastructure affects that infrastructure, more than it's existence as a car does.

Should someone have to register a museum exhibit that happens to be a car? Even if it is not road-prepared at all? It is still a car, even if it NEVER sees the road anymore.

Should the state charge you the same as they charge for a commercial vehicle, that is used as a capital asset?

You don't make money with the use of your car directly, even if that car gets you to the location where you do make money.

A hobby car that sees much less mileage per year, and is much more likely to be an antique vehicle, rather than a brand new vehicle, is not used the same way as a commuter, either.

the only way those vehicles should be taxed the same, is if none of them are taxed based on annual ownership or usage, (fuel tax is a useage tax, as well... if you tax both the use of the vehicle, and the use of the fuel in the vehicle, is that not double taxation on the same activity?)

The only appropriate flat-levied tax would be if people are instead taxed at the point of consumption as a percentage of the purchase price, not annually assessed taxes for simply owning something. Then you pay taxes on what you spend, not on what you own, or what you earn, or what you save.

THAT would be a fair "pay to play" aspect. If you want a toy car... you pay x% on the purchase price, like everything else. After that... it is your property, and the state has no further stake, and can't tax the same value again and again.

If you buy something and restore it... you pay sales tax at the point of sale for the car, and whatever supplies and services you use. If you do it mostly yourself, you save some tax money for being industrious and skilled. That is an economic incentive.

If you buy a brand new car for reliability and warranty, and everything else convenient... you pay the sales tax, which should take care of the costs for the state to register the vehicle. maintaining that record in a database or a file cabinet at the county seat is a miniscule cost per unit, no way should it cost hundreds of dollars every year.

The state wants that money because they can take it, and nobody has made a big deal about it with the people they elect to make the rules.
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Old 01-31-2011, 07:06 PM   #25
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How does a rental property or commercial property have anything to do with this? Those generate income (generally). And again, you go on a 200 word rant about the whole idea of personal property taxes instead of my question of why one vehicle, because it is older, should be handled any differently than another that serves the same purpose as a 2006 Miata that is only driven on nice weekends. WV has no mileage requirement for antique tags unless you get a restricted antique tag that only allows weekends and holidays.

http://www.transportation.wv.gov/dmv...gistration.pdf
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