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Old 02-01-2011, 03:21 PM   #1
Italiano
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Default GM plans to build a less expensive Volt

http://money.cnn.com/2011/01/26/auto...n_bin&hpt=Sbin






Quote:
The next-generation Volt will almost certainly cost less, GM spokesman Rob Peterson said. And the same changes that make it cheaper should make it better, too.

Quote:
"The ideal price point for un-subsidized large-volume sales would probably be no more than $30,000," said John O'Dell, editor of the Web site GreenCarAdvisor.com
*Better battery tech

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Old 02-01-2011, 03:51 PM   #2
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So who in their right mind would buy one now?
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Old 02-01-2011, 04:20 PM   #3
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Because, like the current Volt it will take 7 years from first announcement to release.


Also, the Volt is a prety decent looking car, but damn is it over hyped.
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Old 02-01-2011, 04:44 PM   #4
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i don't think it's over hyped. they're the only ones to finally come out with a hybrid system that makes sense. ever since honda and toyota came out with their hybrids i've always been asking why the hell they made it a parallel hybrid instead of a series design! i understand parallel for other purposes like towing or power or something, but they were aiming square at fuel economy. now what i don't understand is why no one uses a diesel for their hybrid design. if it's just because of public perception that diesels aren't clean, so therefore using one in a hybrid would be oxymoronic - that's ludicrous! all this hybrid stuff is such propaganda, it's ridiculous. sorry for ranting. ...umm ... and i think i just proved your point that it is, in fact, over hyped. heh!
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Old 02-01-2011, 05:16 PM   #5
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I want a hybrid I can run off biomass....
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Old 02-01-2011, 05:18 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lil'redwagon View Post
now what i don't understand is why no one uses a diesel for their hybrid design.
Cost mostly. In Europe, where diesel is a lot cheaper than gas, both Peugot and Mercedes have hybrid diesel models out
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Old 02-01-2011, 05:33 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lil'redwagon View Post
i don't think it's over hyped. they're the only ones to finally come out with a hybrid system that makes sense. ever since honda and toyota came out with their hybrids i've always been asking why the hell they made it a parallel hybrid instead of a series design! i understand parallel for other purposes like towing or power or something, but they were aiming square at fuel economy.
The Volt's charge-sustaining fuel economy is in the mid-30s, and its electricity usage while in charge-depleting mode is high (400-500 Wh/mile is what I've been reading). The Prius logs an even 50 mpg in its equivalent-to-charge-sustaining standard operation.

Which company again made the correct engineering decision?
Quote:
Originally Posted by lil'redwagon View Post
now what i don't understand is why no one uses a diesel for their hybrid design. if it's just because of public perception that diesels aren't clean, so therefore using one in a hybrid would be oxymoronic - that's ludicrous! all this hybrid stuff is such propaganda, it's ridiculous. sorry for ranting. ...umm ... and i think i just proved your point that it is, in fact, over hyped. heh!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Wevrick View Post
Cost mostly. In Europe, where diesel is a lot cheaper than gas, both Peugot and Mercedes have hybrid diesel models out
This. Cost is the reason. VW's XL1 concept is a diesel hybrid, and, as mentioned, there is a Peugeot out in the wild. I didn't know about the Merc: the last I heard there would be a li-poly gas-electric hybrid and a diesel, separately.

Last edited by shikataganai; 02-01-2011 at 05:55 PM.
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Old 02-01-2011, 05:42 PM   #8
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So, GM built a car that on the open market is worth $30,000. In fact they sell it to end consumers at aproximate market value of $30,000. Yet, we allow them to collect a "free" $10,000 of our tax dollars just to make it?

Ok, sarcasm, but that's pretty close, huh?

We are sheep, apparently.
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Old 02-01-2011, 06:21 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Wevrick View Post
So who in their right mind would buy one now?
That idealistic dude who struck it rich with his Google ESPP...or George Clooney.
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Old 02-01-2011, 07:07 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RallyColtTurbo View Post
So, GM built a car that on the open market is worth $30,000. In fact they sell it to end consumers at aproximate market value of $30,000. Yet, we allow them to collect a "free" $10,000 of our tax dollars just to make it?

Ok, sarcasm, but that's pretty close, huh?

We are sheep, apparently.
Some people seemingly are.

Tax incentives, government ownership of car companies, and the marketing of technically short-range cars as social fads, rather than technical advantages...

I am fairly convinced that people buy electric-drive cars for the image they portray, not necessarily any technical aspect.

That is why Prius sells so much better than most hybrids. Prius has a "look" that is recognizeable as a hybrid, where other cars look just like their gas burning counterparts, and don't show off, but do cost more in price and support after the sale.

I don't have a problem with electric motors. In some ways they are actually better.

Electric storage on board, and off-site transmission are nowhere near what liquid petrochemical fuel is, in terms of transit efficiency, or energy density per pound of weight. A lotus Elise full of fuel, the fuel tank full of gasoline weighs about 90lbs. A Tesla Roadster's battery assembly weighs 900lbs of strip-mined lithium in those batteries, that takes hours to charge, not minutes to refuel.

The Volt is a Cruze otherwise... yet the volt is almost twice the price, before the taxpayers incur the debt to subsidize them to the tune of 10-Gs. Where exactly are they going to cut the price? less battery and therefore even less range? What else can they cut and still have any electric drivetrain at all, or a functional car otherwise?

The infrastructure problems that come up on the laws of chemistry and physics are the issue, not the theory of an electric motor driving a wheel.
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Old 02-01-2011, 07:10 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HipToBeSquare View Post
I am fairly convinced that people buy electric-drive cars for the image they portray, not necessarily any technical aspect.

That is why Prius sells so much better than most hybrids. Prius has a "look" that is recognizeable as a hybrid, where other cars look just like their gas burning counterparts, and don't show off, but do cost more in price and support after the sale.
Reconcile your opinion with the observed sales of Prius 1st gen (poor, looked like an Echo), 2nd gen (good, looked unique), 3rd gen (good, looked unique) AND Insight 1st gen (poor, looked unique), and 2nd gen (poor, looked like a Prius copy).

It's not entirely the looks--people aren't that stupid. A Kamm back, curved roof profile and a pointed snout do not make for guaranteed good sales as the 2nd-gen Insight proves in spades.
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Old 02-01-2011, 07:22 PM   #12
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Honda Insight doesn't have the PR recognition of the Prius, and Honda's hybrids have not had the acclaim of the Prius, and have been panned for their drive quality, as well.

Most image-driven people with a green agenda wouldn't know what a Kamm-back is, but they know the prius's shape says "hybrid" to them, and to anyone else who happens to be looking.

That seems to be a huge impetus to spend the additional money on a Hybrid car, compared to a less complex, less expensive gasoline economy car, like the Corolla, or Honda Fit, which is a honda product that has been selling better than the Insight.
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Old 02-01-2011, 07:24 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shikataganai View Post
. I didn't know about the Merc:
Article mostly on the Peugeot:

http://news.cnet.com/8301-11128_3-20015822-54.html

and the Merc:

http://www.topspeed.com/cars/mercede...d-ar85872.html
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Old 02-01-2011, 08:02 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shikataganai View Post
The Volt's charge-sustaining fuel economy is in the mid-30s, and its electricity usage while in charge-depleting mode is high (400-500 Wh/mile is what I've been reading). The Prius logs an even 50 mpg in its equivalent-to-charge-sustaining standard operation.

Which company again made the correct engineering decision?
Most people who buy the Volt will use much less gas than they would with a Prius. Most Volt buyers won't use any gas at all during their daily commute.

So, neither choice is "correct." Each is better for different purposes.
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Old 02-01-2011, 09:04 PM   #15
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… and because of the inefficiencies/compromises in the Volt's design (Exhibits A-Z: 3800+ lb curb weight) they'll save a negligible amount of money over the gas that a Prius driver would use. Electricity isn't free.

If one is going to use electricity then use it well, as with one of the dedicated BEVs such as the Leaf, IMO. (If the Focus EV and other still-vaporware cars materialize and turn out well I'll become cheerleaders for them, too .)
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Old 02-01-2011, 10:20 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HipToBeSquare View Post
less complex... gasoline economy car
Can we PLEASE nix that particular line? GM invented it when they didn't have any hybrids to sell.


There is some software and some electronics stacked on top of the transaxle, yes, but mechanically the drive system in a Prius (or the Volt which is very similar) is VASTLY simpler than either a 4-speed automatic transmission or a 5-speed manual.



It's a CVT with electronically adjustable ratios and no belts or cones to wear out.
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Old 02-01-2011, 10:54 PM   #17
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A car with a mechanical fuel-driven drivetrain is simpler than having additional hardware for hybrid drive, no matter what mechanical mixing device there might be.

Power-application batteries, electric motor, controllers, on-board charging equipment, and high DC Voltage lines are not needed in a Chevy Cruze or Toyota Corolla.

They are added equipment and added cost in the Chevy Volt or Toyota Prius.

The point stands, a traditional mechanical ICE driven car is simpler than a hybrid car, as a system.
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Old 02-01-2011, 11:54 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lil'redwagon View Post
i don't think it's over hyped. they're the only ones to finally come out with a hybrid system that makes sense. ever since honda and toyota came out with their hybrids i've always been asking why the hell they made it a parallel hybrid instead of a series design! i understand parallel for other purposes like towing or power or something, but they were aiming square at fuel economy. now what i don't understand is why no one uses a diesel for their hybrid design. if it's just because of public perception that diesels aren't clean, so therefore using one in a hybrid would be oxymoronic - that's ludicrous! all this hybrid stuff is such propaganda, it's ridiculous. sorry for ranting. ...umm ... and i think i just proved your point that it is, in fact, over hyped. heh!
You really need to go back and read up on what Chevrolet actually delivered in the Volt. It's not a parallel hybrid... it's a plug-in series hybrid. It's not tuned for maximum efficiency. It doesn't have direct injection or a Miller-Cycle design or any of the important fuel saving technologies that cheaper cars (like the Prius) are available with. The engine has been tuned to be flexible since it drives the wheels directly under certain conditions, as opposed to being tuned to generate efficiently at low RPMs. GM did not deliver a revolution like they promised.
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Old 02-02-2011, 12:38 AM   #19
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yeah, i know it's a series design. that's about the extent of what i support about it. but it actually drives the wheels under certain conditions? that's kind of pointless. and yes, i know it doesn't use any of the fuel saving tech. that's why i was asking about the diesel-series-hybrid. but i thought the ecotech engines were all di, no? another missed opportunity. i guess my rant wasn't very clear, but it sounds like we're saying the same thing. and again, sorry for my rant. it just really gets me when people are all high on themselves for driving a hybrid, when all they're doing is buying into marketing. i guess it doesn't help that i was living in los angeles when the prius first came out. are the batteries at least recyclable yet?

i agree, they didn't deliver a revolution. but it was gm talking. coming from them, they actually came through with a car... and it's a series hybrid (sometimes)! that's more than i was expecting. hybrids in general are not a revolution as they are marketed. and they're not green either. as mentioned, they're not efficient systems. so my point is that hybrids - all hybrids - are over hyped. not just the volt. but on an over hyped playing field, at least it's a series design. i didn't know about the european diesels you guys posted. it doesn't surprise me, they have much more fuel efficient cars out there. but that opens up a whole other can of worms. the, "they won't send it to america" can.
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Old 02-02-2011, 01:38 AM   #20
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Jesus GM build it before somehow releasing another model that does not exist!
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Old 02-02-2011, 02:06 AM   #21
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I must admit that I am quiet intrigued by the Volt.....but I'd be much more intrigued by a TDi, I think.

I like the idea of being able to drive a car that only needed to be refueled, at a pump, occasionally.....and both would likely render that a once a month or so proposition.
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Old 02-02-2011, 07:59 AM   #22
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What I find most interesting is how so many people said it would never go beyond the auto shows. Then it started showing up in egineers driveways. Then people said it would never be built. Then GM started rolling them off a limited production line. Then people said that it would never see mass production. Last time I checked, GM is going to build 10,000-40,000 and every single one is accounted for. The Volt is impressive just in the fact it has broken out of the standard molds of gas and current hybrid offerings. It is a turning point in engineering a more efficient car. I am disappointed in the transmission design, but I'm confident the engineers at GM already have the next generation tranny ready to go. As for those purchasing this car, who cares why they do it as long as they do it. I have a computer in my basement that has the 1gig hardrive that cost over 3 grand 15 years ago. No idea about anything else in it anymore, but it was blazing fast!
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Old 02-02-2011, 08:49 AM   #23
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Do not forget the government has signed up to buy 14000 volts. So lets not hail it as a success. In general, hybrid sales are not setting the world on fire. I think volt/prius hybrids are just a stop gap. I think a full hydrogen car and refueling is the way to go. NO shortage of hydrogen anywhere
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Old 02-02-2011, 09:52 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lil'redwagon View Post
are [Prius] batteries at least recyclable yet?

hybrids in general are not a revolution as they are marketed. and they're not green either. as mentioned, they're not efficient systems.
1. Toyota.com: "We assume responsibility for recycling all of our hybrid batteries."

2. I commend any car that can get over 35 mpg combined. Hell, even 30 mpg combined is pretty good. The Fit that I drive gets about 22-23 mpg in the stop and go city traffic here during the dead of winter--our Prius nearly doubles that.

3. With regard to total-system "greenness" look here if you're truly curious: http://toshiclark.xanga.com/70043862...nmental-sense/
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