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Old 02-05-2011, 11:03 AM   #51
BadTrainDriver
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OP,
There is not an engine oil made that is good for a stock engine and a race engine.
It's not possible...ain't never gonna happen.

Read the Oil Faq's.

Everything you need to know(and probably a lot of stuff you won't understand) is in there.

Most importantly, check your level often.

BTD.
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Old 02-05-2011, 11:11 AM   #52
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This is the reason I hate oil threads, close it an read stickies. Everyone has their own opinion and they suck, mayb <5% of the ppl preaching about oil have actually sent it away to be tested or really really know what they are talking about, some oil burns, some oil thins, mobil1 is bad for thinning out quickly and that is a fact, oil that burns has nothing to do with the oil but the condition of your motor and how hard you drive it, oils are so similar but the only other oil i personally hate is royal purple, Ive had no negative experience with rotella, castrol, pennzoil, amsoil, motul or valvoline, as of last 5 oil changes I have been usuing rotella 5w30 before that pennzoil platinum and amsoil on track days and or redline before and after track runs. This question shouldnt be asked on the forums, there are way too many write ups on the same subject with the same answers, same disaggreements and same of miss-information.
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Old 02-05-2011, 11:20 AM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kentrik View Post
The first number is viscosity at startup temperature, the second is viscosity at operating temperature.....right?

Technically, then, any 0W will be the best for startup protection so long as whatever it is doesn't lose viscosity after 1-2k of operating.
The problem is, [in general] the farther apart the two numbers are, the quicker they will shear together. So if you're trying to choose between a 0W40 and a 10W40, you would want to go with the 10W40 unless you absolutely need the 0W rating, because the 10W40 will "hold together" longer.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kentrik View Post
So the 0 is useless unless I am living in Northern Idaho? :P

I can't think of a time at which the engine is every really at "0*F", as it were. That is basically freezing, and at any given time of the year, I think for the most part my engine when sitting cool and not having been turned on is probably around 50-70*F, depending on the season.
Where do you live where the engine never drops below 50F? Just the other day I started up my car when the engine was -13F. Even when I was in San Antonio I would regularly start the motor at 20-30F.
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Old 02-05-2011, 11:25 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by SHIFTER55 View Post
So whats the best oil in a 2011 STI for hard spirited street driving and occasional track day?
Depends entirely on the weather where you live. If you'll be doing this spirited street and occasional track driving in temperatures between -10F and 50F, you would probably want a 0W40 or the like. If you'll be doing it between 40F and 100F you would probably want a 15W50 or the like. Just don't try to start that 15W50 when the engine is -10F, because it won't be able to protect the motor at those temperatures.
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Old 02-05-2011, 02:58 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by the suicidal eggroll View Post
The problem is, [in general] the farther apart the two numbers are, the quicker they will shear together. So if you're trying to choose between a 0W40 and a 10W40, you would want to go with the 10W40 unless you absolutely need the 0W rating, because the 10W40 will "hold together" longer.
That may have been true several years ago, but you really cannot make those generalizations any longer. It really depends on the quality of the base stocks used, and the oil formulation. For example, the original green GC was proven not to have any Viscosity Index Improvers. Many Red Line grades (eg 5W-30) do not have any either. edit: Just noticed that you said "in general". Nice disclaimer.

Many oils do well on the street and and the track. For an API certified oil, Mobil1 0W-40, Pennzoil Ultra 5W-40, Motul X-cess 5W-40, GC, Rotella T6 would do well on the track. Examples of good non-certified oils would be any Red Line and Motul 300V.

-Dennis
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Old 02-05-2011, 05:18 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by 2Fast4U1DAY View Post
The first isnt "start up temp". The first number is viscosity at 0 degrees F.
Actually, no. It's not. All oils have substantially higher viscosities at low temperatures. There are no oils that have lower viscosity at low temperatures.

It helps to understand the types of oil and how they are assigned a "weight" (which is a correct, if colloquial, term since the SAE ratings are not actually viscosities but unitless catagories representing viscosity). Straight oils, or single grade oils are designated with the SAE XX rating. These are oils that follow the theoretical premise that viscosity varies essentially linearly with temperature. For example, a SAE 30 oil will have a viscosity between 9.3 and 12.5 centiStokes (cSt) at 100* C (210* F). At half that temperature, the viscosity will be double. Look at the chart below. SAE 30 is roughly equivalent to ISO 100:



At 100* C, (about 210* F) the oil has a viscosity of about 12 cSt. However, at 0* C (32* F) it has a viscosity of about 1200 cSt - so thick it will barely even flow. This is why straight grades should never be used in car engines that are subject to cold starts.

A multi-grade or multi-weight oil has viscosity modifiers added to it that cause it's viscosity to vary differently than a straight oil.It will act like a lower SAE oil at lower temperatures and a higher SAE oil at high temperatures. The first number (the one followed by the "W") represents that SAE class that the oil behaves like at cold temperatures (the exact temperature varies). Look at the chart again. The ISO 15 line corresponds roughly to an SAE 5 oil. The viscosity at 0* C is about 95 cSt. So, a 5W-XX oil does not have a viscosity of 5 at low temperatures. Its actual viscosity is much higher - about 95 cSt in this case. The number means it behaves like a SAE 5 oil at low temperatures. The second number means that it behaves like that SAE class at 100* C.
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Old 02-05-2011, 06:12 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spokeshave

Actually, no. It's not. All oils have substantially higher viscosities at low temperatures. There are no oils that have lower viscosity at low temperatures.

It helps to understand the types of oil and how they are assigned a "weight" (which is a correct, if colloquial, term since the SAE ratings are not actually viscosities but unitless catagories representing viscosity). Straight oils, or single grade oils are designated with the SAE XX rating. These are oils that follow the theoretical premise that viscosity varies essentially linearly with temperature. For example, a SAE 30 oil will have a viscosity between 9.3 and 12.5 centiStokes (cSt) at 100* C (210* F). At half that temperature, the viscosity will be double. Look at the chart below. SAE 30 is roughly equivalent to ISO 100:

At 100* C, (about 210* F) the oil has a viscosity of about 12 cSt. However, at 0* C (32* F) it has a viscosity of about 1200 cSt - so thick it will barely even flow. This is why straight grades should never be used in car engines that are subject to cold starts.

A multi-grade or multi-weight oil has viscosity modifiers added to it that cause it's viscosity to vary differently than a straight oil.It will act like a lower SAE oil at lower temperatures and a higher SAE oil at high temperatures. The first number (the one followed by the "W") represents that SAE class that the oil behaves like at cold temperatures (the exact temperature varies). Look at the chart again. The ISO 15 line corresponds roughly to an SAE 5 oil. The viscosity at 0* C is about 95 cSt. So, a 5W-XX oil does not have a viscosity of 5 at low temperatures. Its actual viscosity is much higher - about 95 cSt in this case. The number means it behaves like a SAE 5 oil at low temperatures. The second number means that it behaves like that SAE class at 100* C.
So i was partially right lol. I swear I learn more about this controversial subject daily... I took that whole spiel (sp?) right out of my notes from a few classes ago lol. Guess i need to adjust them a hair. But im pretty sure about the temps... I took them right out of my textbook.
P.S on my iPhone that chart looks like ish. Its very difficult to make out anything.
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Old 02-05-2011, 06:19 PM   #58
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go to walmart, buy shell rotella t6 5w-40, and never have to worry about making these threads again.

if you have a real race engine, which i doubt you do, then ask your builder which oil he recommends... assuming he is a reputable builder.

Last edited by vinxH; 02-05-2011 at 06:27 PM.
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Old 02-05-2011, 07:45 PM   #59
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Ive had many cars that recommended Mobil 1 or Castrol. What soo great about Rotell T6 Syn. Never heard of this oil until i got a subaru.
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Old 02-05-2011, 07:52 PM   #60
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it holds up well in our engine. doesn't burn off or shear down as easily, and not to mention it's only like $18-19 for a gallon.

it's nothing special, it does its job and it does it well for our engines, that's all.
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Old 02-05-2011, 08:38 PM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SHIFTER55 View Post
Ive had many cars that recommended Mobil 1 or Castrol. What soo great about Rotell T6 Syn. Never heard of this oil until i got a subaru.
People like Rotella T-6 for several reasons. First, it is a relatively inexpensive high quality synthetic. It is primarily a diesel oil, and as a result, it has excellent shear resistance and detergent properties. Most diesel oils do not meet - or at least state that they meet - specifications for gasoline cars. RT6 meets API SM specifications. So it is about the only good diesel oil that is also rated for gasoline passenger car engines. Additionally, since it is a diesel oil, it is not under pressure to provide an "efficiency" selling point so it tends to have a viscosity that is higher in its grade than other oils. Also, from the UOAs that I have seen, RT6 has much higher levels of ZDDP (zinc dialkyldithiophosphate) than other passenger car oils (but still within the limits of API SM). ZDDP is a very effective anti-wear compound that has essentially been phased out of most oils for two reasons - the phosphorus eats catalytic converters, and the main engine component it used to protect, flat tappets, have largely been phased out of passenger car engines.

However, turbocharged cars like higher levels of ZDDP. Because of the much higher cylinder pressures, it is more likely that there will be metal-to-metal contact in the bearings, particularly if the oil shears out of grade (like Mobil 1 5W-30 is prone to do). ZDDP will help prevent this. Additionally, turbocharger bearings also benefit from the anti-wear properties of ZDDP.

So, in summary, Rotella T-6 is popular because:

1) It is inexpensive
2) It is very high quality
3) It has excellent shear stability
4) It has exellent anti-wear qualities

Last edited by spokeshave; 02-05-2011 at 11:09 PM.
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Old 02-05-2011, 09:34 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by spokeshave View Post
.. particularly if the oil shears out of grade (like Mobil 1 is prone to do). ...
You mean "regular" Mobil1 xW-30, and most, Energy Conserving xW-30's. Comparing RT6 to xW-30 is an apples to oranges comparison. RT6 should be compared to M1 Turbo Diesel 5W-40. And as I mentioned before, not all Mobil1's shear out of grade yet people seem to just say shears out of grade like Mobil1.

-Dennis

Last edited by bluesubie; 02-05-2011 at 09:42 PM.
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Old 02-05-2011, 11:07 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by bluesubie View Post
You mean "regular" Mobil1 xW-30, and most, Energy Conserving xW-30's. Comparing RT6 to xW-30 is an apples to oranges comparison. RT6 should be compared to M1 Turbo Diesel 5W-40. And as I mentioned before, not all Mobil1's shear out of grade yet people seem to just say shears out of grade like Mobil1.

-Dennis
Yes, I meant "regular" Mobil 1, and I wasn't really comparing it to RT6. I only referred to Mobil 1 parenthetically. I know that not all Mobil 1 oils shear out of grade quickly, but the 5W-30 does, and it is by far the most commonly used Mobil 1 since that is the recommended weight for these cars under most conditions. I edited my original post to be more specific.
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Old 02-06-2011, 12:25 AM   #64
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Well done Spokeshave. Whats your take on Redline? Iam a big fan of the 5w30.

Last edited by SHIFTER55; 02-06-2011 at 12:49 AM.
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Old 02-06-2011, 08:21 AM   #65
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I've never used Redline, so I haven't really researched it. It is supposed to be a good oil though.
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Old 02-06-2011, 12:38 PM   #66
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Like Motul 300V, Red Line is really in a league of its on. Made from ester base stocks, has some PAO's blended in to counteract the shortcomings of esters (like seal compatibility), has lots of moly and zinc, and has a very high High Temp High Shear. 300V and Red Line both have enough detergents to go for 5-7,500 mile intervals (guided by uoa), but neither are actually API certified if that is a concern.

-Dennis
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Old 02-06-2011, 01:03 PM   #67
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Redline does meet API SM - the latest API specification. Best I can tell, Motul does not, though it apparently does meet API SL, which is an obsolete specification. This may or may not be important depending on whether you want the warranty for your emissions components, particularly cats (if you still have cats), to remain in effect. They are both supposed to be very high quality oils - as the price reflects.

Some people have speculated that these oils, due to their primary purpose as racing oils, may not have as many dispersant and detergent additives to be useful for long OCIs for street cars. I haven't seen enough UOAs for either to draw that conclusion, though.
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Old 02-06-2011, 01:30 PM   #68
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Well as we all know there no 1 science when it comes down to oil issues but i thought it out. 7 out 10 members are RT6 syn. fans. Soo ive decided to go either Catrol edge 5w30 or the RT6.5w40. 200 mls to decide. Curious do, who makes the 5w30 syn. oil for Subaru which is standard in all STI 2011.
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Old 02-07-2011, 01:20 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by spokeshave View Post
Redline does meet API SM - the latest API specification. Best I can tell, Motul does not, though it apparently does meet API SL, which is an obsolete specification. This may or may not be important depending on whether you want the warranty for your emissions components, particularly cats (if you still have cats), to remain in effect. They are both supposed to be very high quality oils - as the price reflects.

Some people have speculated that these oils, due to their primary purpose as racing oils, may not have as many dispersant and detergent additives to be useful for long OCIs for street cars. I haven't seen enough UOAs for either to draw that conclusion, though.
Red Line's site is a little confusing and I don't know why they mention they meet any API specs. If you look at the levels of zinc and phosphorus in their oils, you can see that they exceed the API SM limits. Although many Motul oils meet API SL specs, the 300V does not.

Both oils do contain enough detergent/dispersants for the OCI that I indicated above. You can look at a virgin oil analysis or contact Red Line and Motul.
Red Line 5W-30 VOA.
Motul 300V VOA .

-Dennis

Last edited by bluesubie; 02-07-2011 at 09:08 PM. Reason: added links
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Old 04-18-2011, 10:52 AM   #70
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I used to use Brad Penn 10w-30(the green oil, old Kendall motor oil) in my Z31 because it had high levels of ZDDP and quieted the flat tappets in my engine.

I wonder if anyone is using it in their Subie? Hopefully someone without cats as the oil tends to rapidly degenerate them

Also wondering about any of the Eneos oils, particularlyl the 0w-50 and the 5w-40.
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Old 04-18-2011, 06:02 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by Legacy01
I used to use Brad Penn 10w-30(the green oil, old Kendall motor oil) in my Z31 because it had high levels of ZDDP and quieted the flat tappets in my engine.

I wonder if anyone is using it in their Subie? Hopefully someone without cats as the oil tends to rapidly degenerate them

Also wondering about any of the Eneos oils, particularlyl the 0w-50 and the 5w-40.
I think very few subie owner's run BP. Maybe some folks in the Built Motor forum. I wouldn't sweat the ZDDP unless you're burning a lot oil. Tons of people are running Rotella and you don't see threads about cat failures.

Eneos recently reformulated their oils to meet the new API SN specs. I think a few folks run it, but there isn't much data on it. The 0W-50 probably has a lot of viscosity Improvers and may shear to a 40 grade, although I think it uses some ester base stocks. I wouldn't run a 50 grade unless you have a built motor with tolerances that allow it.

-Dennis
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Old 04-19-2011, 12:54 PM   #72
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I'll just stick to what I've been using the last few changes, which is the Rotella T6 5w-40, as it seems to be VERY popular and supported by hard data. The only thing I've noticed with it seems to be about a 2-3 mpg drop overall, but that's hardly a real concern, as gas prices here are now $4.07/gal for 93 octane I'm not one to really switch from something that is proven to work well.
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Old 04-20-2011, 07:54 PM   #73
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You should try out valvoline synthetic. I've used that and it works great. Change every 3-4 thousand miles and you'll be in good shape bud.
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Old 04-21-2011, 06:11 AM   #74
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There is a write up from FP about a bunch of oils they tested to the new spec qualifications and Rotella T6 was one of the worst.
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Old 04-21-2011, 06:15 AM   #75
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There is no better oil for a Subaru than amsoil 0w30.

Also check out this site for more info on oil. Www.bobistheoilguy.com
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