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Old 02-04-2011, 04:02 AM   #1
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Default Barack at Penn State/ 1 Million EV By 2015



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President Barack Obama, during a visit to Penn State today, laid out more of his broad plan for the nation to switch to clean energy, a move that would, among other things, place heavy emphasis on putting at least 1 million battery cars on the road by 2015.

But a blue-ribbon panel, put together by Indiana University, warns that the administration won’t be able to meet its goal of shifting motorists into hybrids and battery-electric vehicles that quickly

“The production intentions of automakers are currently insufficient to meet the 2015 goal,” argued the report, “and even the current plans for production volume may not be met.”

Pres. Obama has made energy a cornerstone of his policies, and has authorized billions of dollars in grants and low-interest loans to promote energy efficiency and a shift away from imported oil. Much of that money has gone to the auto industry, where it is supporting efforts to set up lithium-ion production facilities, develop even more advanced batteries, and help manufacturers put on the road vehicles that can use the new technologies.

Among the beneficiaries of that funding are Nissan, which recently launched the new Leaf battery-electric vehicle, or BEV, and General Motors, which brought its Chevrolet Volt plug-in hybrid to market at about the same time.

Both models have been winning extensive kudos, Volt most recently being named North American Car of the Year by a panel of 49 U.S. and Canadian journalists. But the two vehicles are facing a slow ramp-up, with total combined sales of less than 1,000 since they first reached showrooms in December. And Nissan confirmed, last month, that the launch of the Leaf will go slowly until at least the middle of the year, part of its effort to ensure it can properly manage the production of the new technology.

But eventually, the Japanese maker is hoping to turn the Leaf – and other battery-based products to follow – into a mainstream business, with global capacity of 250,000 a year by 2014. GM has already begun searching for ways to expand output, CEO Dan Akerson recently expressing the goal of boosting Volt production from a planned 10,000 this year to as much as 25,000.

Other makers are quickly entering the market. Ford launched production of its new Transit Connect Electric at the end of 2010, and will launch the new Focus Electric within a year, to be followed by several plug-in hybrids, including the new C-Max Energi.

That has led some proponents, such as the National Resource Defense Council, to see the 1 million target as, if anything, conservative.
But the 13-member Indiana University panel warned there are simply too many obstacles in the way. John Graham, dean of the IU School of Public and Environmental Affairs, said they include limited industry capacity, as well as questionable public demand for plug-ins and battery-electric vehicles, or BEVs.

The panel’s conclusions mirror other recent reports projecting a slow ramp-up for battery cars, the Driving Green study, from J.D. Power and Associates, for example, predicting that all battery-based vehicles, including conventional hybrids, will make up no more than 7% of total demand by the end of the decade.

To get there sooner, warned Gurminder Bedi, the IU panel chairman and a former top Ford executive, will require close industry-government cooperation.

The president has been pressing Congress to increase support for both industry efforts and consumer incentives. Indeed, Michigan Cong. Sander Levin has introduced a White House-supported measure that would expand availability of the current $7,500 tax credits available to buyers of qualified battery vehicles, such as Leaf and Volt. Congress may also shift to a rebate-style approach that would provide the $7,500 up-front, allowing it to be used as a down-payment for vehicles like Volt and Leaf.

But there’s no question that things will have to change quickly. The current estimate is that there are less than 100,000 plug-ins and pure BEVs on U.S. roads today.
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Old 02-04-2011, 10:41 AM   #2
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How about having the government stick to what the constitution says it can do, and not doing anything else, as the enumerated powers principle was intended....

...AND LET PEOPLE BUY WHAT THEY THINK IS BEST.

If Obama is saying this, and spending OUR money on subsidizing it today, he'll be regulating it tomorrow, and mandating it shortly after that. It isn't just idle talk from a "community organizer."

Is this the land of the free, and home of the brave?

Or is it the land of the serf, and home of the [economic] slave?
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Old 02-04-2011, 10:45 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by HipToBeSquare View Post
How about having the government stick to what the constitution says it can do, and not doing anything else, as the enumerated powers principle was intended....

...AND LET PEOPLE BUY WHAT THEY THINK IS BEST.

If Obama is saying this, and spending OUR money on subsidizing it today, he'll be regulating it tomorrow, and mandating it shortly after that. It isn't just idle talk from a "community organizer."

Is this the land of the free, and home of the brave?

Or is it the land of the serf, and home of the [economic] slave?
They will just hide behind the Commerce Clause. The masses are too stupid, we must be spoon-fed and coddled.
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Old 02-04-2011, 10:47 AM   #4
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That clause has been tortured beyond recognition, for more than a century now, to the detriment of the commerce activities of the people that the constitution was written to protect from over-reaching government.
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Old 02-04-2011, 10:53 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by HipToBeSquare View Post
How about having the government stick to what the constitution says it can do, and not doing anything else, as the enumerated powers principle was intended....

...AND LET PEOPLE BUY WHAT THEY THINK IS BEST.

If Obama is saying this, and spending OUR money on subsidizing it today, he'll be regulating it tomorrow, and mandating it shortly after that. It isn't just idle talk from a "community organizer."

Is this the land of the free, and home of the brave?

Or is it the land of the serf, and home of the [economic] slave?
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They will just hide behind the Commerce Clause. The masses are too stupid, we must be spoon-fed and coddled.
The Commerce Clause has been used and abused, but in this case, it is a moot point. The goal of 1 million EVs on the road by 2015 is completely unattainable. That many EVs cannot be legislated into existence in four years.
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Old 02-04-2011, 11:03 AM   #6
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Anybody else come into this thread wondering why there were army barracks at Penn State?
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Old 02-04-2011, 11:21 AM   #7
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Something about "...provide for the defence and general welfare..." goes here.

Getting the US quickly off oil is a matter of national security and vital to continued economic growth.

Nissan and GM's projected production volumes get us to about 750000 total plug-ins by the end of 2014. I have no doubt that Ford, Toyota and Honda will be jumping in to that game as quickly as they can.

Hell, just corporate and government fleet sales can soak up most of that production.
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Old 02-04-2011, 11:54 AM   #8
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^^Exactly. The government has their hands in a lot of things they shouldn't, but this is one issue where I'm glad they're taking the initiative and speeding up the process of innovation. They are just putting into motion a change that is inevitable. EV's are going to be the norm, and our infrastructure needs to start changing to accommodate them.

Also, is it so hard to just call the guy President Obama? "Barrack" seems a little unprofessional for a news headline.
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Old 02-04-2011, 11:56 AM   #9
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Anybody else come into this thread wondering why there were army barracks at Penn State?
I was looking for a whole Third Amendment discussion based on that headline.
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Old 02-04-2011, 12:17 PM   #10
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Only 1million electric cars by 2015 does not seem like a tough challenge. How many car companies are there? How many cars do they sell? What percentage of that would need to be electric over the next 4 years? That percentage is tiny I am sure.

This is kind of like the president saying, "We need to sell 1million 3D televisions by 2015", its going to happen anyway.
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Old 02-04-2011, 12:18 PM   #11
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Anybody else come into this thread wondering why there were army barracks at Penn State?
Many colleges and universities have ROTC programs, and house student-soldiers.
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Old 02-04-2011, 12:25 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by HipToBeSquare View Post
That clause has been tortured beyond recognition, for more than a century now, to the detriment of the commerce activities of the people that the constitution was written to protect from over-reaching government.
Yes, but it has given us food that's normally fit to eat and water fit to drink, except in cases where lobbies have reduced its authority. Of course in 1789 everyone was so worried about the hazards of safe food and water they specifically prohibited the government from being able to do anything about it with exact wording in the Constitution.
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Many colleges and universities have ROTC programs, and house student-soldiers.
They're normally not separate from the rest of student housing, though during the war my dorm at Indiana was set aside exclusively as an NROTC center. When I was there I was one of two cadets in the complex.

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Old 02-04-2011, 12:28 PM   #13
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Only 1million electric cars by 2015 does not seem like a tough challenge. How many car companies are there? How many cars do they sell? What percentage of that would need to be electric over the next 4 years? That percentage is tiny I am sure.

This is kind of like the president saying, "We need to sell 1million 3D televisions by 2015", its going to happen anyway.
That is 4 years.

The article says that there are fewer than 100,000 EVs, (NOT HYBRIDS, ELECTRIC ONLY.) on the road now.

Multiplying the number of EVs by TEN-fold, in the next 4 calendar years is not as small a thing as it might seem.

Especially since most people demand more of their cars than current EV tech can deliver, mostly in terms of range and re-charge time. An EV is not the tool for anything more than urban or sub-urban commuting in it's current state. I wouldn't trust one in a rural snow-belt setting, or if I had to drive more than 40 miles at any given time. These are not cross-country vehicles, either.

No way I would have trusted one in a blizzard like we had this week. Heat in an electric car only depletes the batteries faster, and raises the likelyhood of being stranded. There were too many people stranded in their regular vehicles as it was. If they had frozen to death, there would have been a bigger problem. A gasoline car can be periodically turned on to generate more heat per volume of fuel, compared to level of electric charge.

Just like natural gas heat in a house is more energy efficient than heating your house with electric baseboard radiators.

No way I would buy an electric vehicle as they are currently made, the limitations of the batteries are just too significant.

I don't see that drastically changing enough to consider one in the next 4 years.

Subsidizing them with taxpayer dollars, while deflating the currency, and accruing more debt than ever, is blatantly irresponsible. Plus, Obama's track record is to move toward regulatory restriction, and government mandates on the people... that are already being ruled unconstitutional on other topics. Obama is antithetical to limited government and personal freedom under the umbrella of the US Constitution.
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Old 02-04-2011, 12:41 PM   #14
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Yes, but it has given us food that's normally fit to eat and water fit to drink, except in cases where lobbies have reduced its authority. Of course in 1789 everyone was so worried about the hazards of safe food and water they specifically prohibited the government from being able to do anything about it with exact wording in the Constitution.
That is in the constitution.

Article 1, section 8: one of the powers of Congress:
"To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;"

Measuring the cleanliness of water, and setting standards for food safety would be considered a specific standard of measure.

That doesn't necessarily mean that the congress can force you to buy a certain food, or regulate where you can and cannot eat or drink.

It is supposed to create a standardized gauge for the free citizens to evaluate the merits of things, not preventing people from getting those things, or forcing people to buy those things under penalty of law.

If the government says that clean water is measured a certain way for purity, and you agree with that measurement, you have the opportunity, and the personal responsibility to procure water that meets those standards.

That doesn't mean that you are forced to only buy government approved water, and if you don't buy government owned, or government approved water, you'd get a fine.

The enumerated powers ARE for the protection of the people from the over-reaching of government. The fact that there are enumerated powers that the government does have, is to show that government is a necessary thing, but is so easily taken far overboard, which diminishes or challenges outright, the people's responsible, moral, and inalienable rights, freedoms, and liberty for self-determination.

Their ability to coin and regulate money was not supposed to incur historically high levels of debt, and deflate the value of money away from the people, either. And the congress representatives should be voted out of office if they support that. They are bankrupting and endangering our country, and that was not the intent of them being able to print and regulate a unified currency.
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Old 02-04-2011, 01:14 PM   #15
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Dear sweet Christ. Take it to PP..they really love the Tea Party there.
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Old 02-04-2011, 01:17 PM   #16
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So listen to this guy. He would run a McDonald's into bankruptcy .
He picked up on where Bush failed and did it in a grander way. OK plug me in.
Prisoners are also getting your tax dollars by claiming EV tax credits..and the IRS is paying them!
http://www.time.com/time/business/ar...046220,00.html


Last edited by Masterauto; 02-04-2011 at 02:09 PM.
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Old 02-06-2011, 03:05 PM   #17
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Ibtl......
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Old 02-06-2011, 04:04 PM   #18
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If the IRS has located (all?) the people who have committed fraud by erroneously claiming a credit to which they are not entitled than that's great. The OP seems to be hinting that it is the fault of the tax credit itself for the erroneous claims which is ridiculous. The people who file the fraudulent returns are the problem. Its not like this is the only tax credit that's ever been used fraudulently for financial gain (dependent deductions anyone?? False reporting of wages??).
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Old 02-07-2011, 09:56 AM   #19
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Fixed...

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No way I would buy an electric vehicle as they are currently made, the limitations of the batteries are just too significant.

I don't see that drastically changing enough to consider one EVER.
Battery only cars are of limited use and will never replace a range unlimited car. At least not for most Americans who use their cars for more than just commuting. If the intent is to make the world a greener place and reduce the dependency on foreign oil then they should make the credit smaller and offer it for any car using the EPA mpg rating to determine the credit. That way the EVs would still get the full (albeit smaller) credit. But hybrids, diesels and other high MPG cars will benefit, too. And the move to higher MPGs would happen a lot quicker.

Quote:
Prisoners are also getting your tax dollars by claiming EV tax credits..and the IRS is paying them!
This is not a problem with the credit, this is a problem with congress. If congress would properly fund and staff the IRS we wouldn't have these problems, and we wouldn't have a deficit either. But I can assure you that isn't going to happen anytime soon.
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Old 02-07-2011, 11:17 AM   #20
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Battery only cars are of limited use and will never replace a range unlimited car.
All cars are range limited; the only real difference is the current infrastructure of fuel locations. Granted we have a hundred years of buildup but this same comment could have applied to cars replacing horses. There are plenty of decent arguments about power distribution and transfer to make without making the assumption that any car is range unlimited.
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Old 02-07-2011, 11:35 AM   #21
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This is not a problem with the credit, this is a problem with congress. If congress would properly fund and staff the IRS we wouldn't have these problems, and we wouldn't have a deficit either. But I can assure you that isn't going to happen anytime soon.
So your answer to fixing a bad piece of legislation, the giving tax credits to hybrids, is to hire EVEN MORE government workers to enforce a law that should not have been passed in the first place. And not just any workers, you want more IRS people. You fail at logic

please do not breed.
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Old 02-07-2011, 11:45 AM   #22
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So listen to this guy. He would run a McDonald's into bankruptcy .
He picked up on where Bush failed and did it in a grander way. OK plug me in.
Prisoners are also getting your tax dollars by claiming EV tax credits..and the IRS is paying them!
http://www.time.com/time/business/ar...046220,00.html

You shouldn't talk about our Führer Obama like that..... \\ :^= )
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Old 02-07-2011, 01:34 PM   #23
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So your answer to fixing a bad piece of legislation, the giving tax credits to hybrids, is to hire EVEN MORE government workers to enforce a law that should not have been passed in the first place. And not just any workers, you want more IRS people. You fail at logic


Actually the logic is really simple: If everyone paid their taxes we would all pay a whole lot less. The problem is not this one piece of bad legislation, it's many, many years of bad legislation. The hybrid tax rebate is one of thousands of rules that congress throws over the fence to the IRS to figure out. The tax code is so complex that no one can enforce it. So they go after the only people they can: the wage earners.

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please do not breed.
You're about 5 years too late on that one...
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Old 02-07-2011, 01:59 PM   #24
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Battery only cars are of limited use and will never replace a range unlimited car. At least not for most Americans who use their cars for more than just commuting. If the intent is to make the world a greener place and reduce the dependency on foreign oil then they should make the credit smaller and offer it for any car using the EPA mpg rating to determine the credit....
Exactly. Batteries are very toxic and worse for the environment than oil. They don’t last forever and you can just place them into a landfill without negative repercussions to the environment.

Let’s say everyone switched to electric vehicles over night. We run a risk of overloading our power grids. In a perfect world, nothing like that happens but what will happen is our electric bills will significantly increase, even for those without electric vehicles. We would see outrageous pricing just like we see now with Gasoline.

On a side note, where do these batteries and materials come from? Oh, that’s right, it’s CHINA! Once again we are fueling the Chinese’s Economy.

Sources:
http://www.ehso.com/ehshome/batteries.php
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=will-electric-cars-wreck-the-grid
http://news.cens.com/cens/html/en/news/news_inner_33011.html
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Old 02-07-2011, 04:24 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by HipToBeSquare View Post
That is in the constitution.

Article 1, section 8: one of the powers of Congress:
"To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;"

Measuring the cleanliness of water, and setting standards for food safety would be considered a specific standard of measure.
Um, no, the weights and measures clause relates to things like standardizing how long a mile is. It has nothing to do with food or water safety standards.
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