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Old 02-07-2011, 09:50 AM   #1
xluben
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Default Takes Longer to Start after Walbro Install

I put a Walbro 255 fuel pump into my 2011 WRX a week or two ago. It runs fine, but I have noticed that it takes longer to start. Even if I partially turn they key and let the pump finish priming, it will still take 3-4 seconds of cranking before it turns over. Nothing else was changed when I installed the pump.

Before the install it would start up instantly (even without priming the pump). It is winter so temps have been between -10F and 30F recently. I have also noticed that if I have the car running, turn it off, and then start it again within a few minutes, it will start up much quicker. More like it did before.

Is it normal to have to crank for a few seconds before the engine will start (after a Walbro install)?


Quote:
Originally Posted by xluben View Post
Update:

Bought 2 replacement o-rings. They are Viton -203 (5/16 x 9/16 x 1/8). The part number at NAPA is 2-12093 for a box of 2 and they cost $1.98. Pulled everything back out. Removed the piece of hose I was using as a spacer and installed the OEM hard plastic o-ring spacer, as well as the 2 new o-rings I got. I also ground down a very small ridge on the Walbro so that the plastic o-ring spacer would sit flat.

Once I went to put it back together, I realized I wasn't actually seating the o-ring into the hole in the housing. It was basically just pushing up against the face of it. I used a lot more force and eventually it "popped" into place very noticeably. Then I finished putting it all back together and got it back into the car.

Now it seems to be back to normal! Fuel pressure remains even after the car has been sitting. The double o-ring and grinding off the ridge on the pump were both recommended online, but I really think the hose as a spacer would have worked just fine (it accomplished the same thing) if I had just pushed it all back together far enough.

*An easy way to check if you have it pushed in far enough is the remove the o-ring(s) and o-ring spacer. Then put the pump into the housing. Take note of how far it sits into the housing. Then put the o-ring(s) and spacer back on and make sure you get it back in just as far. If it's not far enough, it won't seal properly.
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Last edited by xluben; 02-27-2011 at 10:55 AM.
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Old 02-07-2011, 10:07 AM   #2
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I have this problem as well.

In your case it sounds like your losing fuel pressure somewhere.

Check the connections at the pump again?
Have someone look at the pump while it's priming. That would be my first step.
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Old 02-07-2011, 10:31 AM   #3
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What would you look at on the pump?

Anyone have a diagram of what the connections on the pump and housing go to? I believe there is one connection on the bottom of the top half of the housing. It has an o-ring and looks to seat into a recess in the outer (bottom) part of the housing. I'm not sure I understand what the function of this is. It looks like it would just be sealed off. I am not positive if this is making a good seal, because the longer pump is causing the filter to bottom out and makes the housing very hard to get back together.

For the top of the pump, I did add a spacer to (hopefully) allow the o-ring to seal into the housing. I believe this should be working, but I guess I don't really know how to check whether or not this is fully sealing or not. If a slower startup is not a normal condition, then I would be interested in any suggestions on how to troubleshoot the problem.
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Old 02-07-2011, 01:10 PM   #4
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I think it's normal because mine does the same thing.
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Old 02-07-2011, 01:19 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steeldon View Post
I think it's normal because mine does the same thing.
That's good to hear. If it is normal, I'd definitely like to figure that out, so I don't have to go screwing around in my gas tank any more. I spilled plenty of gas doing the original install, I don't need to do it again

I have heard from a few people now that it's perfectly normal. But I've also heard people say their car starts right up. Maybe it's just a difference in opinion on what "starting right up" means?
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Old 02-07-2011, 02:40 PM   #6
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It is not normal. Did you only use one O-ring when installing the new pump? Many people who only use one have this problem.
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Old 02-07-2011, 02:54 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tripintaz View Post
It is not normal. Did you only use one O-ring when installing the new pump? Many people who only use one have this problem.
When I only used one o-ring I didn't have any pressure at all, and it wouldn't even start. I cut a piece of hose and put it on instead of the plastic pusher. It was at least as tall as the pusher + an extra o-ring. After I did this it started right up, but with the delay I've described above.

Is there any reason the o-ring/pusher need to move around? I noticed that the plastic pusher was quite loose and could move easily. The hose that I put on was a tight fit and doesn't move around at all. Could this cause a problem?
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Old 02-07-2011, 03:07 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steeldon View Post
I think it's normal because mine does the same thing.
It's not normal. I've seen users go back over their Walbro installs after issues and find out they're leaking fuel out of one of the hose connections back into the fuel tank.

The loss of fuel pressure overnight is a dead giveaway.
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Old 02-07-2011, 03:14 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Haelan View Post
It's not normal. I've seen users go back over their Walbro installs after issues and find out they're leaking fuel out of one of the hose connections back into the fuel tank.

The loss of fuel pressure overnight is a dead giveaway.
This makes sense. Because it does start right up if I restart shortly after turning the car off.

Is this hard on the pump? Is there a possibility to cause other damage?

Which locations are likely to have a leak that would cause this?

The middle o-ring in this photo is on the one that goes onto the top of the fuel pump. The other o-ring in this photo should also be in place.



Mine looks like this, but instead of the plastic pusher, I have a piece of hose that is long enough to hold the o-ring in a position like this photo.



This is the other o-ring I was mentioning, it is on the bottom of the pump (right side and out of focus in this picture). It is also installed, but I'm not sure if the filter bottoming out, could make it harder for this o-ring to seal.

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Old 02-07-2011, 03:24 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xluben View Post
This makes sense. Because it does start right up if I restart shortly after turning the car off.

Is this hard on the pump? Is there a possibility to cause other damage?

Which locations are likely to have a leak that would cause this?
It depends on the size of the leak. If the vehicle is starting your pump likely won't suffer any long terms problems. However, there is the chance of lower than normal fuel pressure which could cause lean conditions in high RPM full boost situations. It's something that should be addressed.

Check all the connections. Make sure the clamps are tight, etc. With any luck you'll find it. The pump is not incredibly complex so it should be easy to spot. The connections may look tight, but +40 PSI and higher is a lot of pressure to hold back. Fuel will squeeze out of any weak links.
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Old 02-07-2011, 03:36 PM   #11
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my pump does not do that on my 04 wrx
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Old 02-07-2011, 03:38 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Haelan View Post
It depends on the size of the leak. If the vehicle is starting your pump likely won't suffer any long terms problems. However, there is the chance of lower than normal fuel pressure which could cause lean conditions in high RPM full boost situations. It's something that should be addressed.

Check all the connections. Make sure the clamps are tight, etc. With any luck you'll find it. The pump is not incredibly complex so it should be easy to spot. The connections may look tight, but +40 PSI and higher is a lot of pressure to hold back. Fuel will squeeze out of any weak links.
I checked and the IDC's are marginally lower all the way up the RPM range after installing the new pump, so I'm hoping the added flow is plenty to overcome the (hopefully) small leak that is now present. I don't have a wideband to check AFR's, but I assume they are OK. If I'm not burning out the pump, I'll probably wait and try working on it this weekend. If there was more risk of damage, I'd probably try working on it sooner.

On the 08+ there aren't any clamps or hoses. I'd actually rather it be like the older models. It would be easier to trouble shoot. With the new ones you modify the housing and then jam it all back together and hope the o-rings are in the right spots and properly compressed. It is really hard to tell if it's actually the o-rings bottoming out (and sealing), or some other interference.
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Old 02-07-2011, 03:55 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xluben View Post
I checked and the IDC's are marginally lower all the way up the RPM range after installing the new pump, so I'm hoping the added flow is plenty to overcome the (hopefully) small leak that is now present. I don't have a wideband to check AFR's, but I assume they are OK. If I'm not burning out the pump, I'll probably wait and try working on it this weekend. If there was more risk of damage, I'd probably try working on it sooner.

On the 08+ there aren't any clamps or hoses. I'd actually rather it be like the older models. It would be easier to trouble shoot. With the new ones you modify the housing and then jam it all back together and hope the o-rings are in the right spots and properly compressed. It is really hard to tell if it's actually the o-rings bottoming out (and sealing), or some other interference.
I see what you're saying about the newer models now. If I was in this situation I would look for slightly larger o-rings and replace them. As I'm unfamiliar with the design I'm not sure where else to check.
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Old 02-07-2011, 04:07 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Haelan View Post
I see what you're saying about the newer models now. If I was in this situation I would look for slightly larger o-rings and replace them. As I'm unfamiliar with the design I'm not sure where else to check.
Yeah, I think I will try the double o-ring trick instead of using the piece of hose that I currently have. It appears others have tried the same thing, and had the same results

http://www.3gwrx.com/forum/index.php...html#msg135774

I have also found that there are some tabs that may need to be ground down on the pump as well. I hadn't seen this before, but I will probably give that a try too.

http://www.iwsti.com/forums/how-inst...wrx-lgt-5.html

Both of the posts above cite the same lack of fuel pressure upon startup that I'm having, so I have high hopes that if I do both of the fixes, my problem should be gone (I hope).
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Old 02-07-2011, 04:08 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xluben View Post
I checked and the IDC's are marginally lower all the way up the RPM range after installing the new pump, so I'm hoping the added flow is plenty to overcome the (hopefully) small leak that is now present. I don't have a wideband to check AFR's, but I assume they are OK. If I'm not burning out the pump, I'll probably wait and try working on it this weekend. If there was more risk of damage, I'd probably try working on it sooner.
Your IDC will not drop after the pump install, at all. The ONLY way to see any change is with a wideband.

You probably saw your IDC drop because the atmospheric temp was higher. The air was less dense, your car was sucking in less air, and therefore needed to add less fuel.

Last edited by the suicidal eggroll; 02-07-2011 at 04:15 PM.
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Old 02-07-2011, 04:10 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steeldon View Post
I think it's normal because mine does the same thing.
It's not. If your car takes longer to start after the install then you have a bad installation, bad pump, or bad FPR.
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Old 02-07-2011, 07:24 PM   #17
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Throwing my experience in, after my install my car started exactly the same as it did with the stock pump. So I agree with the other guys, it does not sound normal, should start the same as before.
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Old 02-12-2011, 04:35 PM   #18
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Update:

Bought 2 replacement o-rings. They are Viton -203 (5/16 x 9/16 x 1/8). The part number at NAPA is 2-12093 for a box of 2 and they cost $1.98. Pulled everything back out. Removed the piece of hose I was using as a spacer and installed the OEM hard plastic o-ring spacer, as well as the 2 new o-rings I got. I also ground down a very small ridge on the Walbro so that the plastic o-ring spacer would sit flat.

Once I went to put it back together, I realized I wasn't actually seating the o-ring into the hole in the housing. It was basically just pushing up against the face of it. I used a lot more force and eventually it "popped" into place very noticeably. Then I finished putting it all back together and got it back into the car.

Now it seems to be back to normal! Fuel pressure remains even after the car has been sitting. The double o-ring and grinding off the ridge on the pump were both recommended online, but I really think the hose as a spacer would have worked just fine (it accomplished the same thing) if I had just pushed it all back together far enough.

*An easy way to check if you have it pushed in far enough is the remove the o-ring(s) and o-ring spacer. Then put the pump into the housing. Take note of how far it sits into the housing. Then put the o-ring(s) and spacer back on and make sure you get it back in just as far. If it's not far enough, it won't seal properly.
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Old 02-26-2011, 04:22 AM   #19
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Same experience here;
Had walbro 255 HP pump installed. Then the car wouldn't start easily without turning the key on and waiting for the fuel pump to prime and build pressure, (full gauge sweep +), then it still took 3 or 4 rotations to get started.
It was like that for months. I finally pulled it apart, put the two NAPA O-rings on it, ground a little off the two "bumps" by the outlet pipe, added a zip-tie around the pump body to make a tight friction fit in its cylindrical hole, and a zip tie through a couple holes to hold the pump tight against the inside of that hole, and this created a very solid bond, that was about 2mm deeper than before. It certainly "popped" into place with the two o-rings, and is very solid with the zip ties, rather than wobbly in its hole.

Starting the car now, even after 14 hrs without running, and at -2 Celsius, only takes about two revolutions - with no previous "priming".

So, for those of you that have cars that start much worse than before - that isn't normal. :-)
Better than that - it can be fixed! Yay!

Also, the pump is still noisy - they are a noisy pump, but it isn't working as hard or running as long as it used to, now that it holds pressure better, so it is a bit less intrusive.
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Old 02-26-2011, 11:43 AM   #20
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Sounds exactly like my situation. Glad the same fix worked for you as well!

Noise doesn't really bother me. I don't really even hear it unless I "prime" the pump before starting it. Once the car is one the exhaust noise drowns it out.

Has anyone else had a very tough time getting the outer part of the housing back on with the Walbro? Even with the pump pushed all the way in I had to shave a couple mm's off the tabs that hold the housing on, and it still took all my strength to snap back on. Every time I did it I felt like I was at the verge of breaking something.
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Old 02-26-2011, 03:23 PM   #21
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my 02 starts just fine after my walbro install. i dont think your problem is normal.
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Old 02-26-2011, 09:18 PM   #22
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I think you missed the rest of the thread. LOL.

I'll try to update the first post when I'm on a computer.
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Old 02-27-2011, 12:02 AM   #23
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The "problem"... well, some may not recognise it as a problem, especially if it was a small loss of pressure. The problem is real, caused due to ill fitment of the walbro pump. It is a problem of modification, rather than hardware incompatibility. If we could see into that area better...
In a very literal way, it isn't a problem at all, it's the installer. Reminds me of that PEBKAC joke. ;-)

It seems to happen a lot with the walbro upgrades to the new fuel basket design. I ran into many many posts about starting and pressure issues online.
Until people started to mess with a few options, it was hard to tell if starting issues were a "problem", or just the way the new fuel systems respond to a walbro. Seems a lot of people had their car starting a bit worse than stock after their first walbro installation attempt.

It isn't a problem with the walbro pump, or with the cars using a walbro - so it isn't some serious thing; but it is a problem of finessing a bigger mismatch than there used to be, to ensure full proper function.

Some installers were lucky/good at what they did, and they sealed up well. A lot of others, it seems, are not getting the fuel pressure they used to have, but didn't realise that was the issue. A modified car is never exactly what it was. Over time, this pressure loss may get worse for them. (vibrating pump, o-ring aging, etc.) and then they may notice it as a sudden mysterious issue.

Some of us knew things were a lot different, but just thought that was par for the course.

From what I've seen and experienced, the new fuel systems, when combined with a walbro, can work as well as a stock system for starting. It doesn't have to be a cranky muscle car on a cold day. :-) Yay!

Until recently, I thought that poor starting "was just the way it had to be", when running bigger injectors, a walbro 255, and a custom tune, and I just lived with it. Now I know that with some tweaks to the system, it can be made to seal better, and hold pressure overnight. Resolving all the starting issues, and maybe more. Like high pressure high flow variance.

I've been the "control", the initial experiment, and the revision, all-in-one. :-D If I only knew this stuff a year ago. Sigh.

I think my fix has even helped me during full boost - it feels like it misses less, pulls better.

-- As far as getting the bottom of the bucket back on;
You can cut the bottom fuel filter's pipe down, and also cut off the centre peg of the walbro, to leave as much space as possible. My filter is held on with only a friction fit, and since it sits more or less on the bottom, and it has not moved for months, it must be safe to dispense with the centre post clip, and even a hose clamp. As long as the fit is tight enough to not let junk get by it and into the pump.
My bucket is not distorted, and what gives me the most problem, is getting that black internal pipe aligned and back into the bottom. It might be the pump still being tall, but I think it is the black pipe being "tall". I usually take the o-ring out of the bottom, and put it on the pipe, and grease it up a bit. It is a very tight fit, though - for length. Maybe even cutting a bit off that pipe would make it easier. It's like something has swollen while sitting in all that gasoline. *shrug*
Anyway, my basket goes back together without distortion of the bottom, and I don't think there is much pressure on the pump, but that one corner where the black pipe goes back in, is very tough to squeeze down, and does have about a 1mm gap on the edge in that area. :-/ I don't have to grind down my clips for more room.

If I was to do this a third time...
I'd use one o-ring on top of the plastic pusher, and one fat one under the pusher. It seems the pusher is meant to lock into some fins and expand to hold its place... as far as I can tell/surmise in post-analysis. The plastic pusher may be too short for the walbro outlet pipe. Adding a spacer behind the plastic pusher on top of the pump, and one o-ring on top, may make it lock into place even better.

I'd carve out the side of the lip of the outlet pipe's hole, to make room for the walbro bumps, rather than carve the walbro.

I'd experiment with cutting down that black internal pipe by a millimetre or two. If I could be sure it was the pipe creating the resistance. Scary.

Anyway, just some ideas. That basket sure is a complicated and rather ingenious piece. Suspension and support frame and a sorta surge tank/baffle, all in one.

As for noise - I agree. I don't hear mine above the 3" turbo-back. At least not too often. Now, if I do prime it, I hear the same loud whine, but it is shorter in duration, and just cuts out at pressure, instead of sort of petering out and varying as it tries to maintain pressure. Sometimes it sounded like a very sick cow. :-) I thought maybe it was giving up the ghost.

Anyone know anything about aftermarket fuel pressure regulators, and if it is advised? I like the smell of gasoline in the morning...
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Old 02-27-2011, 11:01 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ESMBunny View Post
If I was to do this a third time...
I'd use one o-ring on top of the plastic pusher, and one fat one under the pusher. It seems the pusher is meant to lock into some fins and expand to hold its place... as far as I can tell/surmise in post-analysis. The plastic pusher may be too short for the walbro outlet pipe. Adding a spacer behind the plastic pusher on top of the pump, and one o-ring on top, may make it lock into place even better.
This is exactly what I did with my original install. In my mind it still seems like the better solution. I am not sure if it didn't work for me because I didn't push the Walbro in hard enough / far enough, or if that setup actually doesn't seal as well.

I've had my fuel pump in and out 5 times (!) trying to get this sorted out, so I'm not interesting in screwing around with it any more, now that it is back to working just as well as OEM. The ideas about trimming the fuel filter mount to save space seem good, but I think having the basket apply some pressure to the pump is a good thing. Helps hold it in place
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Old 03-05-2011, 01:34 AM   #25
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Ya...
If you could get the fuel pump basket back together without too much distortion, and it all works now - why bother taking it apart again.
As you say, the compression will hopefully hold the pump in places as well as anything else easily devised.

I was thinking that you made your hose as a replacement for the plastic pusher, and longer to make up the difference, but wasn't sure if that was how you designed it. So if the hose was stiff and long enough, it might have sealed even better than a two o-ring setup. So maybe you just didn't get it to push in all the way? (this is beginning to sound like pr0n, lol)

I can't believe you had the patience to do this 5 times. Wow!

But guess what happened to me today? Blew my fuel pump fuse...
replaced it, and yet no pump-whirrrrr. No starting, nada.

Did my walbro decide to commit suicide? Is there a pump relay somewhere? I can't find one in the owners manual and the usual spots. Drat.

Just as a little update - when it was working, it was still starting in two whrrs, or less - with no priming. So I was really happy with that. I wonder if it was on the way out (because I was having surging issues which made me take it out and fix it in the first place), and making it work against full pressure killed it off faster?

Anyway - there may be more than 1 good way to get a fuel pump happy and sealed and stable, but just going one o-ring, and no other mods beside minimal grinding of the basket, is unlikely to create the best or longest lasting seal.

Maybe I'll buy a deatschwerks 300lph fuel pump as my replacement. Same dimensions and design as the walbro.
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