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Old 05-10-2012, 02:56 PM   #11901
somebody else
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Im well aware that not everycar has [orangepeel] but most factory paint jobs do. The avoid it you need a very expensive gun and good paint booth and the right mixture.
Well...

You have to believe that modern production facilities have the best equipment commensurate with production efficiency and final product cost.

Modern production methods and materials have a lot of quick-drying two-part clear-coat going on in a short period of time. The clear-coat is BY FAR the thickest component of modern car paint.

When cure rates are on the fast side of the acceptable range (which can be due to mix ratios in the coating, spray pattern, ambient air conditions, etc.) the surface can be locked in before the coating has the opportunity to fully flow out. This is very common. Anyone who has sprayed a lot of material knows that orangepeel promotes worse orangepeel. You can't fix orangepeel by adding more paint; you have to knock it back before adding material. I can tell you right now, production-line cars NEVER have orangepeel knocked back before the next coat goes on. Rolls Royce: yes. Ferrari: yes. Impreza:

The degree of orangepeel can vary from paint station to paint station, day to day, and batch to batch. With production cars, it's pretty much luck of the draw. You get what you get.
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Old 05-10-2012, 03:01 PM   #11902
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-----factory stock paint (extreme example) --------------------------$10,000 custom finish.

Good example!
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Old 05-10-2012, 03:54 PM   #11903
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Originally Posted by brockd View Post
Don't know if this has been addressed on here yet regulating the "orange peel" but a lot of car companies are using special types on paint that are more "spongy" where rocks may fly up and ding the paint. The spongy paint allows the rocks to bounce off instead of chipping. Doesn't work too well.
It does work pretty well.

There are a lot of reasons why what we are loosely referring to as "paint" is like it is. We can start with the EPA, which has the major say in what chemicals can be used and how the byproducts of the paint production and application are managed. The '80s was a transitional period where the EPA mandated "greener" paint before it existed. All that water-born clear-coat that peels off in sheets is pretty much gone by now. I will never forget how my pride and joy disintegrated into rust underneath the ineffective new primer and the clear-coat made the car look 15 years older than it was after only a few years.

The other considerations in modern production finishes are cost of materials, cost of application, appearance and durability.

Long-chain polymers! How do they work?

Durability is at or near an all-time high, thanks largely to the 2-part urethane clears. These can be formulated to be any level of hardness or softness desired. The car companies and paint suppliers keep their formula secret, but an engineer can tell a lot by examining a sample in a lab. Specifically they can measure the thickness of each component (primer, color, clear) and the surface hardness of the clear. The two-part urethane clears shrink slightly as they cure and this works almost like shrink-wrap, binding the the primer and color tightly to the substrate. The clear also goes on very sticky which helps fast film build-up but hampers flow-out and plays havoc with application equipment. Everything is a trade-off. You can formulate clear-coat to be extremely sticky, just like urethane adhesives such as Gorilla Glue and 3M 5200 (both urethanes.)

There is still the problem that results from the primer, color coats and clear coat having such different chemistry. The etching primers bind quite well to the sheet metal and the clear binds quite well to the color. The weak bond is the color to the primer. I'm pretty sure that most color coats are water-born now. They can get away with this primarily due to the shrink-wrap effect of the urethane clear. But if you notice dings, it is almost never to bare metal, but to primer. Scratches can go to bare metal; scratches are different. But dings and chips almost always come away as a two-ply color/clear piece with a clean break at the color/primer interface.

An interesting side-note to EPA regs:
The water-born color coats are -- AT THIS POINT IN TIME -- believed to be the greenest component of the modern paint job. It is the easiest to get away with suboptimal performance because it is sandwiched between two higher-performance layers. Toxic and/or polluting artifacts from manufacturing and application of water-borns is minimal per current research, which only goes back about 20 years. Long-term health effects aren't completely known. The acrylic carriers are very durable in soil, water and our bodies. The metals and pigments may be more easily assimilated into our bodies via the water carriers. What they claim is green and safe now may very easily end up being considerably less so after more data is in. That's not tin-foil-hat talk; it's just the nature of long-term research.

Here's an example of how green legislation can have the exact opposite and worse effects than the problems it was meant to alleviate. When California first mandated greener paint for its road markings (lane dividing lines, double-yellow lines and so on) they experienced an instant reduction in environmental artifacts, primarily in the air. Very shortly, it became apparent that the new paint was much less durable and as it chipped off it worked its way via storm drains into the waterways. And it had to be reapplied at more frequent intervals. The more frequent application negated the environmental savings, added to the cost of maintenance, increased driver frustration because the painting process causes traffic delays and, the icing on the cake, practically disappeared from sight when it rained.
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Old 05-10-2012, 04:05 PM   #11904
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Quote:
Originally Posted by somebody else View Post
-----factory stock paint (extreme example) --------------------------$10,000 custom finish.

Good example!
The point wasnt to show 2 close examples but to give him a better idea through contrast. Its much easier to get the idea of the stippled texture from my example. And i doubt thats a 10k dollar finish. Im betting i can get that type of finish with time and effort from the extreme sample
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Old 05-10-2012, 04:17 PM   #11905
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Well...

You have to believe that modern production facilities have the best equipment commensurate with production efficiency and final product cost.
I dont "have" to believe anything. But i do believe that subaru utilizes the machines that are efficient enough to produce an acceptable product. Turning out a standard paint job that has an acceptable level of orange peel on a consistent basis. Acceptable level that those who dont know what to look for or dont care wont notice.
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Old 05-10-2012, 07:08 PM   #11906
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The point wasnt to show 2 close examples but to give him a better idea through contrast.
Of course.

My point, which I failed to express in writing, was that getting a concourse-quality paint job isn't cheap and that one should not expect a concourse-quality finish on an economy car. The point is that a finish with that level of detail would cost an unreasonable percentage of the total price of the car.


Quote:
And i doubt thats a 10k dollar finish. Im betting i can get that type of finish with time and effort from the extreme sample
For an entire car, if you took it to a facility which does high-end car painting, for a finish that is that perfect across the entire car, it's going to cost more than the monthly special at One Day Auto Paint and Body. By an order of magnitude. Like your visual example, I was using $10,000 "to give him a better idea through contrast."

Time and effort: It's all about the labor, isn't it? When going for concourse-level paint, you may lay on 20 coats with sanding and polishing between each coat, to arrive at a final covering of 3-5 coats. It all depends on what level of surface imperfection the client is willing to tolerate. Or what level of perfection the client is willing to pay for.
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Old 05-10-2012, 07:24 PM   #11907
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I dont "have" to believe anything.
Again I apologize for my imprecise choice of words. That would read more accurately as:
It would not be unreasonable to assume that modern production facilities have the best equipment commensurate with production efficiency and final product cost.

Quote:
But i do believe that subaru utilizes the machines that are efficient enough to produce an acceptable product. Turning out a standard paint job that has an acceptable level of orange peel on a consistent basis. Acceptable level that those who dont know what to look for or dont care wont notice.
Don't forget production cost versus selling price.
_____

"Those who don't know or care" seems a little harsh. I think a fair percentage of buyers understand the concept of "consumers generally get what they pay for." Maybe I'm giving the average car buyer more credit than they deserve. How about, "I understand that consumers generally get what they pay for."
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Old 05-10-2012, 09:04 PM   #11908
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I have a bit of orange Peel on mine and don't mind a bit. In fact, I'm quite enjoying it. I love how my sport limited doesn't have any gaudy jewelry and is rather understated. It has almost no chrome on the outside, no led eye liner like on audis and others, no ridiculous spoiler, and a paint finish that should be durable enough. There's a lady on my block who polishes her s class almost every weekend. Man, I've got better things to do with my time than be a buffer.
You're looking in the wrong segment if you want an anal-retentive finish.
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Old 05-10-2012, 09:11 PM   #11909
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Originally Posted by hemophilic
I have a bit of orange Peel on mine and don't mind a bit. In fact, I'm quite enjoying it. I love how my sport limited doesn't have any gaudy jewelry and is rather understated. It has almost no chrome on the outside, no led eye liner like on audis and others, no ridiculous spoiler, and a paint finish that should be durable enough. There's a lady on my block who polishes her s class almost every weekend. Man, I've got better things to do with my time than be a buffer.
You're looking in the wrong segment if you want an anal-retentive finish.
I don't mind either. Didn't mean to start a whole debate. I have no clue what effect if any this orange peel effect will have on The ultimate durability of the finish. Time will tell

Last edited by nubsub; 05-10-2012 at 09:17 PM.
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Old 05-10-2012, 10:10 PM   #11910
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I don't mind either. Didn't mean to start a whole debate. I have no clue what effect if any this orange peel effect will have on The ultimate durability of the finish. Time will tell
no effect on the durability, just on the looks
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Old 05-11-2012, 08:54 AM   #11911
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Default I finally have an Impreza!

My order was supposed to come in on 22 May (CRP 5-door Limited with Nav/MR ordered 15 Jan - got VIN 04 May) and I got a call yesterday from my dealer saying they found an alternative. They said the car they found was a CRP 5-door Sport Limited with Nav/MR so I went to look at it. Unfortunately sometime before I got there the Nav turned into the Limited HD radio so I was a little disappointed (again) but decided to call my wife and have her come look.

To make a long story short she decided she could live without Nav, the dealer did some magic with the pricing, they offered a reasonable amount for my trade, and we went home with a new car!


Onto the stats:
-I can't post price because it was too low to list
-the tires all had 45.5 psi
-the radio is going to get the tweeks mentioned in this forum because the sound is blah.
-the GM said he doubted my order was going to make the 22 May delivery...
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Old 05-11-2012, 10:44 AM   #11912
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Originally Posted by ammo_umb
My order was supposed to come in on 22 May (CRP 5-door Limited with Nav/MR ordered 15 Jan - got VIN 04 May) and I got a call yesterday from my dealer saying they found an alternative. They said the car they found was a CRP 5-door Sport Limited with Nav/MR so I went to look at it. Unfortunately sometime before I got there the Nav turned into the Limited HD radio so I was a little disappointed (again) but decided to call my wife and have her come look.

To make a long story short she decided she could live without Nav, the dealer did some magic with the pricing, they offered a reasonable amount for my trade, and we went home with a new car!

Onto the stats:
-I can't post price because it was too low to list
-the tires all had 45.5 psi
-the radio is going to get the tweeks mentioned in this forum because the sound is blah.
-the GM said he doubted my order was going to make the 22 May delivery...
Wow! Congrats! I'm glad your saga is over. I hope you are pleased with the resolution and the pricing removes some of the bad experiences and the compromise on the navi portion.

Definitely fix the radio settings!
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Old 05-11-2012, 11:41 AM   #11913
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Nubsub,
I appreciate your rsponse! I'm so glad this is over because I really don't want to think about what I would've done had my ordered not arrived when it was supposed to. I'm pretty sure that if I had to contact higher levers in SOA I would've had "difficulties" being tactful so thankfully I don't have to go here now.

The radio is going to get some tweeking tonight. I honestly thought when I read the posts that people were picky or serious audiophiles and I would be ok with it. That train of thought lasted until I turned it up about half way (while parked with the engine off) and it made me question my hearing. I ended up having to turn it up about 2/3 volume just to get it to sound like most other automotive radios do at 1/4 volume. I'm hoping settings solve it because normally I see no need for upgraded speakers/tweeters/sub woofer. I'm ol, my wife is old and we really don't need a boom-boom stereo! If we need to hear noise we'll go out on the Victory and ride around listening to wind noise and nature!

I've got to go back to the dealer on Saturday to bring them so extra stuff from my wifes Jeep so I'll spend a little time discussing accessory pricing and try to get some discounted items. The car cames with most everything but I'm going to need the hood protector and rear applique to finish it off.
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Old 05-11-2012, 12:31 PM   #11914
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Nubsub,
I appreciate your rsponse! I'm so glad this is over because I really don't want to think about what I would've done had my ordered not arrived when it was supposed to. I'm pretty sure that if I had to contact higher levers in SOA I would've had "difficulties" being tactful so thankfully I don't have to go here now.

The radio is going to get some tweeking tonight. I honestly thought when I read the posts that people were picky or serious audiophiles and I would be ok with it. That train of thought lasted until I turned it up about half way (while parked with the engine off) and it made me question my hearing. I ended up having to turn it up about 2/3 volume just to get it to sound like most other automotive radios do at 1/4 volume. I'm hoping settings solve it because normally I see no need for upgraded speakers/tweeters/sub woofer. I'm ol, my wife is old and we really don't need a boom-boom stereo! If we need to hear noise we'll go out on the Victory and ride around listening to wind noise and nature!

I've got to go back to the dealer on Saturday to bring them so extra stuff from my wifes Jeep so I'll spend a little time discussing accessory pricing and try to get some discounted items. The car cames with most everything but I'm going to need the hood protector and rear applique to finish it off.
i confess: i am audiophile with very picky ears for home equipment so much that i have both a separate 2 channel hifi system at home and a more moderate costing home theater system. but in the car, i have always expected a lot less and i was never planning on upgrading this stereo. the impreza limited stereo was the first "manufacturer" stereo that truly disappointed me, especially thinking this was one of the "higher trim" models.

the tweaks you have read about do help immensely although i have recently been thinking that it would be worth $99 to upgrade those dash tweeters since the install looks simple and i could easily hear ST Eye's (i think i got that right) difference over a mere youtube video which frankly surprised me (since i wouldn't expect the mic to be that great on a camera, let alone my computer speakers' ability to reproduce the differences!)

i've been debating about the whole hood protector thing...all of our recent cars have gotten pretty dinged up with rocks on the highway (it's unavoidable) but i also know others who have been frustrated by the standard bras scuffing the paint on their hoods as the trade off. the clear "stick on" ones are of interest, yet on a dark color like my DGM, i'm not sure i like the look of the seams, etc. (of course, i know: i could go "whole hood")

for the rear: take a look at the rear applique on some cars on the dealer lot to see if it's to your liking. i know some friends like it, but maybe i'm too picky -- it looked like a piece of clear shipping tape on the back bumper that i could see from far away. i think if my rear bumper ends up getting scuffed (i'm in general pretty anal about loading my car), i would try to get an aftermarket cover to go over it. too bad Subaru doesn't offer the plastic moldings they did for previous generations....

anyone know of a good 3rd party rubber/plastic rear bumper guard/cover?
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Old 05-11-2012, 02:40 PM   #11915
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Originally Posted by nubsub View Post
i confess: i am audiophile with very picky ears for home equipment so much that i have both a separate 2 channel hifi system at home and a more moderate costing home theater system. but in the car, i have always expected a lot less and i was never planning on upgrading this stereo. the impreza limited stereo was the first "manufacturer" stereo that truly disappointed me, especially thinking this was one of the "higher trim" models.

the tweaks you have read about do help immensely although i have recently been thinking that it would be worth $99 to upgrade those dash tweeters since the install looks simple and i could easily hear ST Eye's (i think i got that right) difference over a mere youtube video which frankly surprised me (since i wouldn't expect the mic to be that great on a camera, let alone my computer speakers' ability to reproduce the differences!)

i've been debating about the whole hood protector thing...all of our recent cars have gotten pretty dinged up with rocks on the highway (it's unavoidable) but i also know others who have been frustrated by the standard bras scuffing the paint on their hoods as the trade off. the clear "stick on" ones are of interest, yet on a dark color like my DGM, i'm not sure i like the look of the seams, etc. (of course, i know: i could go "whole hood")

for the rear: take a look at the rear applique on some cars on the dealer lot to see if it's to your liking. i know some friends like it, but maybe i'm too picky -- it looked like a piece of clear shipping tape on the back bumper that i could see from far away. i think if my rear bumper ends up getting scuffed (i'm in general pretty anal about loading my car), i would try to get an aftermarket cover to go over it. too bad Subaru doesn't offer the plastic moldings they did for previous generations....

anyone know of a good 3rd party rubber/plastic rear bumper guard/cover?
Yep that was me, and you can definitely hear a difference. Well worth the money for the Kicker tweeters.
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Old 05-11-2012, 03:09 PM   #11916
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The Kicker upgrade is now offered as a FULL SET - 2 Tweeters, 4 Door Spears, and Sub-woofer at a $399 discount ($699 port installed). All prices are MSRP. I have the full set and like them very much - not as good as the system in the house; however, much better than I expected (that is after the Limited "tweak").
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Old 05-11-2012, 03:17 PM   #11917
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The Kicker upgrade is now offered as a FULL SET - 2 Tweeters, 4 Door Spears, and Sub-woofer at a $399 discount ($699 port installed). All prices are MSRP. I have the full set and like them very much - not as good as the system in the house; however, much better than I expected (that is after the Limited "tweak").
what are your tone controls set at with this configuration?

how do you like the sub?

without the sub, it looks like it's about $300 in parts with some web searching for the tweeters and 4 door speakers.

do you have a sedan or hatchback? where is the sub located?
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Old 05-11-2012, 03:40 PM   #11918
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I'd have to look at the settings to be exact. I think that the Treble is +3, mid-range is +2, and Bass is -2; however, my son could have changed that (I like it at -1 cause that works better on Country Music; however, -2 works better for Jazz [both Radio]. -2 works best with iPhone, iPod, and CDs]). I like the sub after accomplishing the Limited's tweak - before that it was to much Boom and the mid ranges were too muddy - not sure if it was worth the cost; however, you only live once and I got it at Invoice Price using the $500 intro coupon, so it was essentially free, after installation. I have the Hatch Back (Sport Limited with lots of "eye candy". It is located to the rear of the rear seat on the Driver's side. Dispite what Subaru indicates, it can be installed with the rear mat - and it is removable if you need the extra room.
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Old 05-11-2012, 03:52 PM   #11919
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I'd have to look at the settings to be exact. I think that the Treble is +3, mid-range is +2, and Bass is -2; however, my son could have changed that (I like it at -1 cause that works better on Country Music; however, -2 works better for Jazz [both Radio]. -2 works best with iPhone, iPod, and CDs]). I like the sub after accomplishing the Limited's tweak - before that it was to much Boom and the mid ranges were too muddy - not sure if it was worth the cost; however, you only live once and I got it at Invoice Price using the $500 intro coupon, so it was essentially free, after installation. I have the Hatch Back (Sport Limited with lots of "eye candy". It is located to the rear of the rear seat on the Driver's side. Dispite what Subaru indicates, it can be installed with the rear mat - and it is removable if you need the extra room.
thanks for the info.

i still keep going back and forth with the loudness circuit being turned on or off. on, it's too boomy (i set bass at -2 with it at that), but with it off the low end is thin, even with the bass tone turned up. i'm inclined to live with the slight boominess right now since that inaccuracy still gives for a more involving sound even if inaccurate and over accentuated. i haven't tried messing with the midrange (at 0 and treble at +3) so maybe that's another wrinkle to explore.

i'm all but certain to get the tweeters. i think the easiness of install and relative low investment is what makes it attractive.
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Old 05-11-2012, 03:57 PM   #11920
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If you have the base model, then adding the standard Subaru Tweeters will make a lot of different, the Kickers, even more.
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Old 05-11-2012, 04:37 PM   #11921
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Quote:
Originally Posted by somebody else View Post
Time and effort: It's all about the labor, isn't it? When going for concourse-level paint, you may lay on 20 coats with sanding and polishing between each coat, to arrive at a final covering of 3-5 coats. It all depends on what level of surface imperfection the client is willing to tolerate. Or what level of perfection the client is willing to pay for.
Had a friend just the other month win best in class with his Factory porsche 20 year old paint job. He claybar'ed, wet sanded and buffed / polished. Its not out of the realm to take an old paint job and turn it into something that takes your breath away. Like i said time and effort.

from the factory it had orange peel

Last edited by auskip07; 05-11-2012 at 04:42 PM.
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Old 05-11-2012, 05:17 PM   #11922
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anyone with a manual swap the pedals out for the STI pedals? they look larger than the ones i remember from my test drive. the pedals just seems tiny for my size 13's, and would like something more substantial i guess.

dealer said my car is on a train headed this way now, so late next week I will probably have a new car, crazy!
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Old 05-11-2012, 05:27 PM   #11923
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A little off topic but I was driving home last night in my base model 5door and heard a clunk and when I stopped I saw that the right front fog lights cover things, I don't have fogs, popped right off the car. Dealer fixed it no problem. But why would it just pop off. No bumps no potholes.
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Old 05-11-2012, 05:37 PM   #11924
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Had a friend just the other month win best in class with his Factory porsche 20 year old paint job. He claybar'ed, wet sanded and buffed / polished. Its not out of the realm to take an old paint job and turn it into something that takes your breath away. Like i said time and effort.

from the factory it had orange peel
i'm sure it doesn't compare, but even without claybaring and just regular garaging and meguir's and/or zymol wax, my dad's 25 year old porsche has a nice glossy finish and is as smooth (after being waxes) as my new impreza.
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Old 05-11-2012, 11:05 PM   #11925
somebody else
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Originally Posted by auskip07 View Post
Had a friend just the other month win best in class with his Factory porsche 20 year old paint job. He claybar'ed, wet sanded and buffed / polished. Its not out of the realm to take an old paint job and turn it into something that takes your breath away. Like i said time and effort.

from the factory it had orange peel
I don't think we are adversaries, though you seem to be making us out as such.

20 years ago Porsche was still using real paint. I think they are one of the last mfgs to convert to water-born color, 2-part urethane clear. That 20-year-old paint probably had 4x the number of color coats. It is not valid to compare paint on a 20-year-old luxury car with new-formula coatings on a new economy car.


I understand about old enamels and lacquers. My '79 Mercedes had absolutely incredible paint that was dead smooth and thick as a milkshake. No clear-coat, just layer upon layer of baked on high-quality paint. I sold that car with over 300,000 miles on it, never a tune-up, ran like a watch and had darn-near showroom finish.
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