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Old 06-20-2012, 11:21 AM   #12776
ocellaris
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Item 4 appears to be accomplished by burning enormous amounts of gas in the first 3 miles of driving, resulting in the major hit on fuel economy for the inner City folks that are doing short errand type driving or really short commutes.
In somewhat related news, turns out the torque convertor does not lock up (to save gas) until the car is going over 24 MPH *and* the transmission coolant temp has reached somewhere just over 120F. This further kills short trip MPG, because it will usually take longer for the transmission to hit temp compared to the engine.

This is why some people (including myself) that the car runs at a much higher RPM when cold. The torque convertor isn't locking so the cars are wasting energy.
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Last edited by ocellaris; 06-20-2012 at 11:32 AM.
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Old 06-20-2012, 11:48 AM   #12777
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Item 4 appears to be accomplished by burning enormous amounts of gas in the first 3 miles of driving, resulting in the major hit on fuel economy for the inner City folks that are doing short errand type driving or really short commutes.
Possibly, but all cars are least efficient when they're cold. I used to own a diesel VW Golf TDI, which got fantastic fuel economy. But it didn't really shine until the trip exceeded at least 15 miles. On the TDI forums, we would tell people who were thinking about buying a TDI for short commutes to not bother.
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Old 06-20-2012, 11:58 AM   #12778
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It is in the warranty book iirc.

I think it is a little dumb that if you have pzev in a non-required state you get housed by having the federally required warranty on emissions rather then the pzev warranty which is longer.
Well, duh, I figured it would be listed somewhere, which is why I was asking for a little clarification, but I don't have that list in front of me. Just about every question we can ask on a forum thread is answered in a book somewhere, so why bother having a forum? Anyone know what is covered under "emissions equipment"? Obviously the muffler and the cats, though emissions equipment, wouldn't be covered for 150k miles.

What's really dumb is that in a couple years every car in America will have to be PZEV and get 50 mpg, and that some guy in your state rolling the same car is going to be covered and you're going to be S.O.L.

My not-so-understanding understanding is that the PZEV essentially recirculates unburnt fuel back into the system, theoretically improving mpg while reducing unburnt carbons?
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Old 06-20-2012, 12:07 PM   #12779
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Item 4 appears to be accomplished by burning enormous amounts of gas in the first 3 miles of driving, resulting in the major hit on fuel economy for the inner City folks that are doing short errand type driving or really short commutes.
There's a catch-22 logic there: if you don't drive your car long enough to warm the cats making the car more efficient, then you take an mpg hit which overrides the purpose of a mandated emissions system. Even though I agree if you're only going a couple miles, why not walk, ride a bike, or visit with the lovely folks on public transportation, but that's not realistic for everyone. Too much worry over mpg, and not enough concern with lifestyle choices (if it matters). Who cares about mpg's in a short trip? They should give the option to turn off the mpg meter and then you can just watch cartoons on that screen or something. Ultimately it doesn't matter if you get 25 mpg or 28mpg. But then, that's one of the main reasons we bought the thing: for its economy, which PZEV is a part of...
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Old 06-20-2012, 12:11 PM   #12780
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My not-so-understanding understanding is that the PZEV essentially recirculates unburnt fuel back into the system, theoretically improving mpg while reducing unburnt carbons?
PZEV certification means the car meets SULEV specs while running AND has 0 evaporation emissions while not running. SULEV is met when a car pollutes "90% less" than the average car on the road (according to California).

Manufacturers can meet the specs however they way by implementing different technologies.
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Old 06-20-2012, 12:17 PM   #12781
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Originally Posted by BigVoxjammer

Well, duh, I figured it would be listed somewhere, which is why I was asking for a little clarification, but I don't have that list in front of me. Just about every question we can ask on a forum thread is answered in a book somewhere, so why bother having a forum? Anyone know what is covered under "emissions equipment"? Obviously the muffler and the cats, though emissions equipment, wouldn't be covered for 150k miles.

What's really dumb is that in a couple years every car in America will have to be PZEV and get 50 mpg, and that some guy in your state rolling the same car is going to be covered and you're going to be S.O.L.

My not-so-understanding understanding is that the PZEV essentially recirculates unburnt fuel back into the system, theoretically improving mpg while reducing unburnt carbons?
I would have looked it up but my car only driven 1 day/week right now

basically pzev gets you better fuel injectors (good thing) and otherwise more after the fact emission stuff. I would think my state will be one of the last to ever adopt pzev. Hence why i don't really care about it. Without I'm sure it all puts out less emissions than my last car so other than that i don't really care
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Old 06-20-2012, 12:27 PM   #12782
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I would have looked it up but my car only driven 1 day/week right now

basically pzev gets you better fuel injectors (good thing) and otherwise more after the fact emission stuff. I would think my state will be one of the last to ever adopt pzev. Hence why i don't really care about it. Without I'm sure it all puts out less emissions than my last car so other than that i don't really care
I hear unburnt emissions in North Dakota are actually beneficial. Something to do with raising greenhouse gasses to allow terra-forming? I hear they're going to start colonizing it, soon...

Less funny, though, if past regulations are any indicator, once California adopts some emissions thing, Oregon and Washington are usually a year later, and within a few years, the whole country follows suit. It's just a real short matter of time before even the nation's more remote, sparsely populated states undergo Californication.
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Old 06-20-2012, 12:32 PM   #12783
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Originally Posted by BigVoxjammer
I hear unburnt emissions in North Dakota are actually beneficial. Something to do with raising greenhouse gasses to allow terra-forming? I hear they're going to start colonizing it, soon...

Less funny, though, if past regulations are any indicator, once California adopts some emissions thing, Oregon and Washington are usually a year later, and within a few years, the whole country follows suit. It's just a real short matter of time before even the nation's more remote, sparsely populated states undergo Californication.
Maybe, but that doesn't require everyone to go out and buy a new car to meet those requirements

I'm not expecting problems, but it is more crap to fail and without the warranty that extra crap should have. I do like the better injectors though and with my 5speed i think they will be beneficial
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Old 06-20-2012, 12:38 PM   #12784
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Originally Posted by BigVoxjammer View Post
I hear unburnt emissions in North Dakota are actually beneficial. Something to do with raising greenhouse gasses to allow terra-forming? I hear they're going to start colonizing it, soon...

Less funny, though, if past regulations are any indicator, once California adopts some emissions thing, Oregon and Washington are usually a year later, and within a few years, the whole country follows suit. It's just a real short matter of time before even the nation's more remote, sparsely populated states undergo Californication.
Actually its regional. Look at the terrain all of these are Ocean boardering states. Winds from the ocean dont allow the gases to escape as easily mountain and ridges play a part in this also. Im sure population per acre is higher in those states vs ones that dont have such strict emission standards. Sparsely populated states im willing to bet have a higher tree and vegitation count which helps purify the air also.

If they are going to require all cars and states sell cars that have this PEVZ im sure it will be because the govt is trying to profit off of it.
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Old 06-20-2012, 01:12 PM   #12785
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Actually its regional. Look at the terrain all of these are Ocean boardering states. Winds from the ocean dont allow the gases to escape as easily mountain and ridges play a part in this also. Im sure population per acre is higher in those states vs ones that dont have such strict emission standards. Sparsely populated states im willing to bet have a higher tree and vegitation count which helps purify the air also.

If they are going to require all cars and states sell cars that have this PEVZ im sure it will be because the govt is trying to profit off of it.
Hadn't even thought about coastal and mountain valley inversions, but that's a good observation. It may not be called PZEV when they mandate it, but it's coming...I would think if the gov't only wanted to profit from the restrictions, then they'd display an active interest in oil-production and allocation (oh, they do, ie. wars in the Persian Gulf and soft-handling BP when it craps the bed), and they'd mandate that cars only get 20 miles a gallon or less (oh, wait, most American cars already meet these requirements, at least until recently...)
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Old 06-20-2012, 01:47 PM   #12786
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Well I rolled 100 miles on my M5 sport after a couple days of driving. My impressions so far:

-Car is a bit noisy on the expressway like others have mentioned- not unbearable, but there. Not as bad with the radio turned to listening volume. It's a "sporty" econo car. I don't think it's out of control loud.

-Window down noise is on par with my other vehicles and not louder than any other car i've driven.

-Blue tooth is loud on the expressway. The extra noise is transmitted through the microphone compared to my truck. People say is sounds like the windows down while driving on the expressway. I don't like this.

-Seat material seems extremely cheap now that I have some seat time. Lumbar support would be nice, but they are very comfortable overall.

- MPGs are fantastic so far. I am getting 31 mixed, where I would normally get 15 with my truck on the same commute.

-I am adjusting to the manual. 1st is the easiest gear from a car I have driven with under 200 hp so far. I have to give more gas than I am used to while upshifting though.

-Handling is fantastic considering the price point. I took it through some twisties around 40-50 mph and it stuck good. A bit oversteer but I rather have that than plow through a turn.

-Acceleration. It has 140 hp. I new this buying it. Nothing to write home about here!

Overall for a 19K awd car I am pleased so far.
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Old 06-20-2012, 02:14 PM   #12787
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You got a BMW?
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Old 06-20-2012, 02:24 PM   #12788
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Well I rolled 100 miles on my M5 sport after a couple days of driving. My impressions so far:

-Car is a bit noisy on the expressway like others have mentioned- not unbearable, but there. Not as bad with the radio turned to listening volume. It's a "sporty" econo car. I don't think it's out of control loud.

-Window down noise is on par with my other vehicles and not louder than any other car i've driven.

-Blue tooth is loud on the expressway. The extra noise is transmitted through the microphone compared to my truck. People say is sounds like the windows down while driving on the expressway. I don't like this.

-Seat material seems extremely cheap now that I have some seat time. Lumbar support would be nice, but they are very comfortable overall.

- MPGs are fantastic so far. I am getting 31 mixed, where I would normally get 15 with my truck on the same commute.

-I am adjusting to the manual. 1st is the easiest gear from a car I have driven with under 200 hp so far. I have to give more gas than I am used to while upshifting though.

-Handling is fantastic considering the price point. I took it through some twisties around 40-50 mph and it stuck good. A bit oversteer but I rather have that than plow through a turn.

-Acceleration. It has 140 hp. I new this buying it. Nothing to write home about here!

Overall for a 19K awd car I am pleased so far.
Regarding the road noise, do you think that this can be improved by getting rid of the crappy factory tires?
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Old 06-20-2012, 02:30 PM   #12789
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Regarding the road noise, do you think that this can be improved by getting rid of the crappy factory tires?
It could possibly help. Subaru chose the Yoko's because of their low rolling resistance, which gives better fuel efficiency. I believe they have a harder compound as a result.
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Old 06-20-2012, 02:35 PM   #12790
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Regarding the road noise, do you think that this can be improved by getting rid of the crappy factory tires?
i am sure this would help some, but i am actually interested in hearing if anyone has treated the wheel wells with any sound damping materials.

as noted by others, i have been surprised by how loud road sounds from rocks/debris hitting the wheel wells can be heard in the cabin. definitely louder than my old Honda Civic which isn't known to be the quietest car in the world.

makes me think that if there is a cheap spray on/treatment of the wheel wells that would deaden some of the sound there, it would be potentially even more impactful than different tires.
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Old 06-20-2012, 02:37 PM   #12791
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And strategically placed sound-deadening material would help too, like the underside of the hood, in the doors, and in the hatch area (if you're driving the 5-door).

I pick up my new Impreza on Friday, and will live with it for a little while before deciding if sound-deadening is required.
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Old 06-20-2012, 02:39 PM   #12792
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makes me think that if there is a cheap spray on/treatment of the wheel wells that would deaden some of the sound there, it would be potentially even more impactful than different tires.
I would hesitate to apply anything that would trap moisture.
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Old 06-20-2012, 02:59 PM   #12793
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I would hesitate to apply anything that would trap moisture.
good point!

i actually am content with the noise level EXCEPT for my intermittent rattles which i have enumerated in another thread. these continue to drive me nuts even though i've been trying to focus less on them. i think the problem is that there are times where i have zero rattles and the car is very pleasant on a smooth road, but then i hit a rough road with the car at the right temp (so panels can rattle) and it sounds like i'm in an old car that has seen too many miles. :\
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Old 06-20-2012, 03:14 PM   #12794
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Well, for me, my car is exceptionally quiet coming from my super-loud 2000 Impreza. That thing literally sounded like you were flying in an air plane when on the highway. This car is so much quieter and smoother, so I guess it's all relative.
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Old 06-20-2012, 03:19 PM   #12795
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I was thinking about getting the aero spash guards, but I think I'll get the Rally armors instead since they are more functional, just for the winter, and take the ugly things off during summer months, unless they grow on me.
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Old 06-20-2012, 06:02 PM   #12796
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So did they change it for you? Who cares if it's within standards. If you want it aimed lower, they should do that, right?
No they didn't. I figure they would, but they were pretty much implying that since everything were within specifications that they wouldn't. Unfortunately, I had to get to work, so I didn't ask, but I should have though. I was the second person in line, but it took them 1.5 hours to check things out. Don't know if it's normal for a headlight adjustment, but time just ran out. I may go to a different dealer to verify.
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Old 06-21-2012, 09:21 AM   #12797
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good point!

i actually am content with the noise level EXCEPT for my intermittent rattles which i have enumerated in another thread. these continue to drive me nuts even though i've been trying to focus less on them. i think the problem is that there are times where i have zero rattles and the car is very pleasant on a smooth road, but then i hit a rough road with the car at the right temp (so panels can rattle) and it sounds like i'm in an old car that has seen too many miles. :\
I don't know if this will help with the rattles, BUT for 3 weeks I've been going nuts with a rattle coming from the passenger side rear corner near the window area - FINALLY I found the problem - I have a hatch and if you raise the hatch and check the plastic covering around the rear window for the culprit. They use push clips to hold that covering around the window, one of mine was either never pushed in OR popped out - I went around the entire plastic and found that in the exact corner where the rattle was , the covering was loose and a clip that needed to be pushed in. I pushed in the plastic, the clip popped into place securing the plastic covering and hopefully that will end that rattle.

OTHERWISE, I love my 2012 Impreza premium hatch- smooth ride, great mileage and I personally love the handling. I now have 6,000 miles on it.
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Old 06-21-2012, 09:42 AM   #12798
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Since they are mandating PZEV in all Imprezas, are they charging for it as well? I would assume they would...
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Old 06-21-2012, 09:45 AM   #12799
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I tell you from experience. These Yoko's aren't getting any quieter with age i'm at 18k.
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Old 06-21-2012, 09:47 AM   #12800
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Since they are mandating PZEV in all Imprezas, are they charging for it as well? I would assume they would...
From what RoyB started a thread about, yes they are. If you ordered & didn't have the PZEV included & the dealers didn't quote that out of habit for not needing PZEV in their state, they've been coming in PZEV & the customers have been told it will be $300 above their quote for the PZEV. RoyB almost walked away because of this. I've read it a couple other times too.
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