Garrett GTX vs Borg Warner EFR - Guesstimations and Calculations

[Hockeymonkey11]

Subscribed, thanks for this excellent info.

* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.

[AQ Motorsports]

Garrett stopped by today with a GTX35r to replace our regular 35R. Goes on the dyno tomorrow afternoon and should be a fun comparison. We currently have a 20, 25, and 30psi dyno plot with the old turbo so we'll do the same. Plus a "however much boost it will make map".

[Phatron]

Sweet

[jkopinga]

AQ, This sounds great! Please post the results. Looking forward to them.

Cheers,

Jasper.

[AQ Motorsports]

here's a picture. I like.



Just wish we weren't still on the stock header.

By tomorrow night I'll have:

-0.82 hotside GT vs GTX at 20, 25, 30psi

-32+ psi map


We also have a 1.06 hotside which we'll swap on later. Also want to try some headers, whatever fits our moroso oil pan. STILL on stockers. Up-pipe is our single scroll T3 part with a 44mm v-band Tial wastegate.

[Phatron]

Originally Posted by AQ Motorsports

Plus a "however much boost it will make map".

me rikey

When im tuning people and they ask "how much power can i make" I tell them "it depends on how big your ballz are"

[waynoSTI]

Originally Posted by Phatron

me rikey

When im tuning people and they ask "how much power can i make" I tell them "it depends on how big your ballz are"

Rotflmao! Then they say ok let's keep it safe but make as much as you can please...

[thefoos]

Originally Posted by waynoSTI

Rotflmao! Then they say ok let's keep it safe but make as much as you can please...

haha, I hear that all the time as well...

[AQ Motorsports]

So that went well. Unfortunately a bunch of the old plots I wanted to post are on another computer in Vegas so I can't quite deliver the comparison I thought I could. here's what I do have:

GT35R at 28psi vs GTX35R at 26psi:



so they spool the same and the GTX makes the same power with less boost.

Here's both turbos at 30psi:



GTX is making about 40whp more, which I think is about what Perrin found recently.

And here's all the boost it would make:



Sorry but no one gets to see the power curve for that one until next week after the modified mag shootout.

I have to say this is probably the perfect turbo for our car- no loss in spool and a lot more up top. We really don't need anymore power than what this thing makes and it keeps the setup simple. The standard 35R we had came off after over 2 years of abuse and still spun like it was brand new with no shaft play.

[Phatron]

I say 705-710whp.....

[Beetspeed]

Originally Posted by AQ Motorsports

And here's all the boost it would make:

So, which is green, which is blue?
I ask, since at 4000 rpm, one makes 15 psi while the other makes 25 psi. Thats a huge difference!

[LittleBlueGT]

I think the GTX almost spools as well as the GT, but if you look at the graphs the GT has better lower psi performance, and possible a bit better transient response.

Still a HUGE improvement for very little loss.

[AQ Motorsports]

Originally Posted by Beetspeed

So, which is green, which is blue?
I ask, since at 4000 rpm, one makes 15 psi while the other makes 25 psi. Thats a huge difference!

both with the GTX, just different pulls. Blue was an earlier pull going for peak boost and and green is what we ended up with. The dynapack acts a little strange once torque levels off because it's trying to keep acceleration constant, which is why there are those dips in the torque curve.

[Clark Turner]

I have tuned 4 GTX30Rs now. All with .82. Two in person and two on E tune. All four cars had the GT3076 with .82 on them and they where direct swaps.

The GTX does not have nearly the fast response as the GT does down low. THe GT tends to ramp in smooth and have a wide power band. The GTX tends to have NOTHING at all then WAM the boost hits HARD.

I have attemped to tune this out and simply cannot. The turbo comes in later and all at once.

The difference in Boost onset is the GTX comes on about 200 to 400 later then the GT.

As for power, The GTX makes much more up top. The Garrett engineer that designed the wheels told me 50 to 60 hp gain. That is about right. The one I recently did was at 29 psi on meth. The Turbine backpressure started to rise at this much boost which caused the boost to fade to 26 at redline even with all the tricks. The car ran a KStech 73 intake and was nearly maxed.

So. If you want a wide power band and up to 450hp stick with the GT30R. If you have that now or want to get to the 500hp level, The GTX30R is nice.

The biggest thing here is that you get a significant bump in power over the the GT30R but not as much lag as a GT35R. The GTX turbos simply fit right between the next model up.

C

[juanmedina]

Originally Posted by Clark Turner

I have tuned 4 GTX30Rs now. All with .82. Two in person and two on E tune. All four cars had the GT3076 with .82 on them and they where direct swaps.

The GTX does not have nearly the fast response as the GT does down low. THe GT tends to ramp in smooth and have a wide power band. The GTX tends to have NOTHING at all then WAM the boost hits HARD.

I have attemped to tune this out and simply cannot. The turbo comes in later and all at once.

The difference in Boost onset is the GTX comes on about 200 to 400 later then the GT.

As for power, The GTX makes much more up top. The Garrett engineer that designed the wheels told me 50 to 60 hp gain. That is about right. The one I recently did was at 29 psi on meth. The Turbine backpressure started to rise at this much boost which caused the boost to fade to 26 at redline even with all the tricks. The car ran a KStech 73 intake and was nearly maxed.

So. If you want a wide power band and up to 450hp stick with the GT30R. If you have that now or want to get to the 500hp level, The GTX30R is nice.

The biggest thing here is that you get a significant bump in power over the the GT30R but not as much lag as a GT35R. The GTX turbos simply fit right between the next model up.

C

......

[LittleBlueGT]

Originally Posted by Clark Turner

I have tuned 4 GTX30Rs now. All with .82. Two in person and two on E tune. All four cars had the GT3076 with .82 on them and they where direct swaps.

Done any GTX3071s (.63 a/r I would assume)????

I know you are not a fan of the GT3071 on a 2.5 liter (and you seem to be right, as I really don't find any that respond all that well), but the GTX3071 might be a different beast, no?

[maxpowr]

subscrib'd

[aaguirre]

Originally Posted by Clark Turner

I have tuned 4 GTX30Rs now. All with .82. Two in person and two on E tune. All four cars had the GT3076 with .82 on them and they where direct swaps.

The GTX does not have nearly the fast response as the GT does down low. THe GT tends to ramp in smooth and have a wide power band. The GTX tends to have NOTHING at all then WAM the boost hits HARD.

I have attemped to tune this out and simply cannot. The turbo comes in later and all at once.

The difference in Boost onset is the GTX comes on about 200 to 400 later then the GT.

As for power, The GTX makes much more up top. The Garrett engineer that designed the wheels told me 50 to 60 hp gain. That is about right. The one I recently did was at 29 psi on meth. The Turbine backpressure started to rise at this much boost which caused the boost to fade to 26 at redline even with all the tricks. The car ran a KStech 73 intake and was nearly maxed.

So. If you want a wide power band and up to 450hp stick with the GT30R. If you have that now or want to get to the 500hp level, The GTX30R is nice.

The biggest thing here is that you get a significant bump in power over the the GT30R but not as much lag as a GT35R. The GTX turbos simply fit right between the next model up.

C

That GTX30R with meth souds familiar

Thanks for tuning my car last week Clark, I love the power on it made
I will take it to Goodpeed this year so we can see the number comparison on the MAHA dyno

Thanks again
Abel

[hally]

I'm looking to try a T3 GTX3071 a/r 0.82 or an EFR 7064 a/r 0.83, both are around the 56lb/min. Which one is likely to hit peak torque the earliest at 25psi and which one would most likely to make the most torque?

GTX3071, comp is 54.1/73.45mm and turbine is 60/55mm.

EFR7064, comp is 52.2/70mm and turbine is 64/56mm

Finding it hard to call this one, the GTX has the larger comp but smaller turbine wheel and turbine housing where as the EFR has the smaller comp and larger turbine & housing.

Opinions please.

[LittleBlueGT]

Originally Posted by hally

I'm looking to try a T3 GTX3071 a/r 0.82 or an EFR 7064 a/r 0.83, both are around the 56lb/min. Which one is likely to hit peak torque the earliest at 25psi and which one would most likely to make the most torque?

GTX3071, comp is 54.1/73.45mm and turbine is 60/55mm.

EFR7064, comp is 52.2/70mm and turbine is 64/??mm

Finding it hard to call this one, the GTX has the larger comp but smaller turbine wheel and turbine housing where as the EFR has the smaller comp and larger turbine & housing.

Opinions please.

Well you want an opinion, but I will tell you some facts.

If there was no EFR turbo I would likely be going with a GTX3071, as it should get close to 400 whp, and be pretty responsive.

But, with the EFR turbo I would definitely pick it. Even if they spool the same on a load bearing dyno, the EFR should spool a fair bit quicker on the street in lower gears, and should feel more responsive.

The EFR also makes going TS very easy and cheap, no need for dual EWGs, not need for trying to figure how to reroute to the DP.

Just buy a FR header and UP and an EFR7064 c/w DP and fittings, and all you need is an intake and possibly some silicone adapters to work with your choice of IC. TS IWG FTW!!!

[hally]

Originally Posted by LittleBlueGT

Well you want an opinion, but I will tell you some facts.

If there was no EFR turbo I would likely be going with a GTX3071, as it should get close to 400 whp, and be pretty responsive.

But, with the EFR turbo I would definitely pick it. Even if they spool the same on a load bearing dyno, the EFR should spool a fair bit quicker on the street in lower gears, and should feel more responsive.

The EFR also makes going TS very easy and cheap, no need for dual EWGs, not need for trying to figure how to reroute to the DP.

Just buy a FR header and UP and an EFR7064 c/w DP and fittings, and all you need is an intake and possibly some silicone adapters to work with your choice of IC. TS IWG FTW!!!

Ha ha, lol, thanks for your opinion mate. If your stating facts, you cant use "i would" or "it should"

I came to pretty much the same conclusion from Perrin Jeff's feedback. Regardless of the dyno curve, the efr should be more responsive due to the lightweight internals, smaller compressor and bearing.

Be great if Jeff did a 7064 and X3071 back to back like all other tests.

[LittleBlueGT]

Originally Posted by hally

Ha ha, lol, thanks for your opinion mate. If your stating facts, you cant use "i would" or "it should"

I came to pretty much the same conclusion from Perrin Jeff's feedback. Regardless of the dyno curve, the efr should be more responsive due to the lightweight internals, smaller compressor and bearing.

Be great if Jeff did a 7064 and X3071 back to back like all other tests.

The thing is with the ease that you can do an EFR in TS, why not, and get at least a small additional gain in performance.

[Phatron]

I still don't believe how u can look at the dyno charts of the gtx30 spooking faster and still claim the efr is gonna beat it on the street......thats definately not "fact"

And it may be easy to go TS....but u still gotta buy a $2400 fr header....so it may be "easy" but it costs 3-4x as much as a regular header with a rotated up

[LittleBlueGT]

Originally Posted by Phatron

I still don't believe how u can look at the dyno charts of the gtx30 spooking faster and still claim the efr is gonna beat it on the street......thats definately not "fact"

And it may be easy to go TS....but u still gotta buy a $2400 fr header....so it may be "easy" but it costs 3-4x as much as a regular header with a rotated up

So Clark and Jeff Perrin are wrong? It feels better on the street, and it does so cause of the lower mass of the turbine wheel. Why is that so hard to accept, it is solid physics, not some mysterious thing. Or is it because you bought a GTX.

If you go GTX then you need to buy an EWG, if you go TS (EFR) then you can simplify things.


Normal rotated set-up requires a header ($600, but I would rather have an invidia for $800+) and a special UP ($250). So for less then $1000 you have a header that is far inferior to FRs stuff that will cost you $2400, ah but then you need to buy an EWG, so the diff in cost is about $900 total. Oh, but if you want to re-route to the DP, then you can add another $100-$200, and you can expect this set-up to last for a couple of years. (I have been through 3 headers now in 6 years) Oh, and you need a 3-port EBCS, and possibly a different BPV/BOV, well I guess that few hundred dollars difference breaks you, you better not road course your car, cause you will go through that in tires and pads in 2 days!

Big wup.

[maxpowr]

you building a new car from scratch ron?

my question is can i put a gtx30r into my gt30r .62 housing? how much will it cost to upgrade my gt30r and who is gonna do it for me?