WRX based mid-engine roadster from Factory Five Racing - Page 33

Nickarub · 02-20-2012, 10:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowphun

Front LSD for $300?

I'm very curious on to how the front axles of the tranny respond to the Wrx stage2+ 250-330 whp/tq numbers when used as a rwd setup. I don't want to be doing any "one wheel wonders" haha

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guitaraholic · 02-28-2012, 05:56 AM

Not to slightly "hi-jack" this thread, but does anyone have the dimensions (especially the location of the output shafts) of the 6-speed transaxle. I'm thinking of using an EZ30 with a set of twins on a Superlite Coupe (another Component build car). I already have the kit, and its being delivered to my mechanic in a couple of weeks. I would have started another tread, but I can't yet (not enough posts)

MDRex · 02-28-2012, 06:40 AM

Not to continue the hi-jack, but I love the Superlite Coupe. Good luck with the build.

StatGSR · 02-28-2012, 10:20 AM

i got to sit in RCRs Bright Green SL-C last summer when i was at RCR. very cool car, and very nice people! just wish their kits were a little cheaper.

guitaraholic · 02-28-2012, 12:35 PM

I'm actually going on shear faith. I have never sat in one or seen one in person. I did get to see a GTM in person, and sat in it. It wasn't bad looking but too "kit-carish" for me. That and you had to drive like you were fighting for the title to get visablity (roll bar too low up front) you won't be able to see any stoplights unless they are half a mile out.

My friend/mechanic is the one building it for me (can't wait till he gets it and starts the build log). He came up with the idea of using an EZ30 with a set of twins. It should be lighter by 100lbs vs the LS(x), and have a nice exotic sound. Also with using the STI tranny, it will be a heck of a lot less expensive then the damn G50's. Hell a new 6 speed STI is 4 grand, , you can't even get a used G50 for that. If you want a 6 speed G50, you are talking 7 grand USED!!

Homemade WRX · 02-28-2012, 08:31 PM

I sat in the SL-C at PRI and man, I want to shove a TT EZ30R into one so badly...well really, an EZ'32' tt

I'd also look at using a Getrag from a Boxster S, much like the one that's sitting in my garage.

guitaraholic · 02-28-2012, 11:27 PM

I don't think an EZ32tt would be possible. If you bored it out, the walls would be too thin, and if you stroke it and can get the 3.6 crank to work, it breaks at 400hp or less.

HipToBeSquare · 02-29-2012, 01:20 AM

It might be easier to use an EG33. I'm just saying. It is related to the EJ22, which was stock-turbocharged. The block and "bottom" end are pretty stout, and that car isn't short on engine bay length, being meant for a GM or Toyota V8 engine, unlike the Factory Five car, or stuffing it under the hood of a Subaru smaller than an SVX.

An EG33 would need to be re-built with turbo-spec cams and pistons, maybe some sodium exhaust valves, and other general forced-induction consideration. But they aren't OBD-II before 1996, which makes ECU considerations easier, and that has been done before. Turbocharging the 3.0R is very rare, and 3.6 is pretty much unheard of. Unfortunately. They seem like they would have some potential, albeit their thinner cylinder walls and narrower cylinder pitch.

But as much as I love flat 6 engines...

I think in a race car like that, I would go with a 20B rotary, to be honest. more compact, lighter, fewer moving parts, and much wider and quicker rev range. Backed by a Porsche, Xtrac, or Hewland racing transaxle.

Mazda should have built a mid-engined rotary sports/racing car with the engine behind the driver, rather than just the 787B LeMans cars, and the Furai concept car. Production would have been amazing as a limited production halo car.

guitaraholic · 02-29-2012, 01:55 AM

I'm getting the EZ sleeved. One of the reasons I like the EZ is the variable timing will make it streetable at idle, yet breath enough on the top end. That and the engine is crazy light, about 150lbs lighter than the LS(x), even with the turbos and plumbing,, figure 100lbs lighter.

HipToBeSquare · 02-29-2012, 02:10 AM

Sounds like an interesting build, I would love to read a build thread about it when the build process gets underway.

Homemade WRX · 02-29-2012, 05:13 PM

Thinking the AVCS or AVLS of the EZ is going to make bottom end power for one built for boost is kind of a funny thought for a racecar.
A) I think you'll be let down by what you're expecting it to do
B) if you're worried about low end, you'll be compromising top end.
C) you're trading off a lot of useful displacement for variable cam timing, in a track car.
D) I'll put money on an EG'36' will have more low end grunt than a sleeved EZ30 and for less money. Oh and you can actually get cams made for the EG. I don't know of anyone doing cams/regrinds for EZ engines.

That 20B however could be a good idea. I wouldn't call them light. Just the bare engine with flywheel is 270 lbs. Then you have the usual issues that go with a rotary but it would be cool.

Quote:

Originally Posted by guitaraholic

I don't think an EZ32tt would be possible. If you bored it out, the walls would be too thin, and if you stroke it and can get the 3.6 crank to work, it breaks at 400hp or less.

or you can put the EZ30 crank into the EZ36

HipToBeSquare · 02-29-2012, 07:00 PM

I so badly wish Mazda would put out the 16X as a crate engine, as well as in a new Mazda sports car.

Aluminum end plates, direct injection... sounds great as a race engine. 787B and Furai.

And a 3 or 4 rotor version... 24X or 32X... hell yes.

I could even see a transverse rotary application, if they could sling the transaxle behind or below the engine, and center the mass of the drivetrain on the car's centerline. Dry sump would help, making the trans housing take the place of the oil sump... like the transaxle of a 512BB slung under the flat 12, rather than in line with it.

I don't even think the engine would need to be 'upright'. Intake and exhaust could be on the high side of the engine, with the plugs and injectors, alternator, and oil pump on the under-side (shielded from debris, of course). up facing exhaust would help with the heat soak issue, and the transaxle could be on the aft-facing side of the engine... as mentioned, forming half of the dry-sump enclosure.

A Rotrak traction-drive engine-intake-calibrated mechanical supercharger to pressurize the rotary intake, and an exhaust turbine geared to add exhaust thermal energy recovered torque to the e-shaft output (more than offset the mechanical output to the supercharger, and doesn't tie compressor speed to turbine speed. no lag, no waste-gate, less blow-off.)... a KERS generator unit that also supplies electrical power to the vehicle, and acts as a starter, to charge a capacitor bank for electric torque boost at low speeds, where the rotary is less efficient.

I have some ideas

Much beyond this... it does start to look better to just eliminate the middle-man, and go to Turboshaft power, with the cooling, thermal, noise, and debris ingestion issues to take care of.

guitaraholic · 02-29-2012, 10:02 PM

This isn't going to be a track car, though it will see some track time.

The cranks aren't compatible, and with that the wallks are too thin for boost, even with the sleeves.

I too would love a 3 rotor in it, with alluminum end/mid plates the engine would be crazy light, but 3-rotors get like 15mpg highway, and if you get on them (esp if turboed), you can get like 6mpg. Also, a 3 rotor is going to be expensive as hell, and not very reliable (one knock and you're rebulding the engine).

Homemade WRX · 03-01-2012, 01:45 PM

Outfront has boosted the EZ36 and they're the ones who started failing the cranks. So it can be done. The cranks can 'be' compatable but you'll need a machine shop.

Like I said, if you want to boost and make big power, grab and EG.

spaceywilly · 03-01-2012, 09:46 PM

new website is up. It has a body pic, donor part list
http://www.factoryfive.com/kits/project-818/

Quote:

Here is the list of parts that are being used currently on the prototype:
• Front spindles with full brakes and front lower control arms
• Rear spindles with brakes and parking brake
• Steering rack, tie rod ends, and upper steering column assembly
• Pedal box and throttle
• Master cylinder and brake booster, and clutch master cylinder
• Engine with turbo and intercooler (if WRX model)
• Transmission
• Rear lower control arms, toe links, and CV joints
• Seats and gauge pod
• Fuel pump
• Radiator
• Wheels and tires

If you have purchased a donor car and are in the process of disassembling and prepping parts, it is important to save as many parts as possible. The following list are parts that you can definitely resell or discard as they are not needed.

2002-2007 Subaru Impreza/WRX parts NOT NEEDED:
• Main body shell (BUT save all bolt-on brackets and hinges)
• All window glass
• Headlights and tail lights
• Rear differential
• Driveshaft
• Headliner and interior pillar moldings
• Carpets
• Front and rear suspension cross-members
• Front struts and springs
• Rear seat cushion and back
• Spare tire
• Fuel tank shell (but keep for fittings and internals)

*NOTE: The 818 prototype is being built and this parts list is subject to change. If it is not listed above, DO NOT DISCARD.

HipToBeSquare · 03-02-2012, 12:05 PM

Looking like good progress. Looking forward to documentation of initial builds.

Mechie3 · 03-05-2012, 08:56 PM

Sorry if this has been covered. I know the bushings for different year wrxs are different, but are the mounting points on the subframe the same? Could potentially be an issue if the mounting points are different.

68Cadillac · 03-06-2012, 01:43 PM

Would love to see Subaru's CVT and the new electronic power steering in a build.

REX8 · 03-06-2012, 01:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mechie3

Sorry if this has been covered. I know the bushings for different year wrxs are different, but are the mounting points on the subframe the same? Could potentially be an issue if the mounting points are different.

For what?

Frank A · 03-06-2012, 11:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mechie3

Sorry if this has been covered. I know the bushings for different year wrxs are different, but are the mounting points on the subframe the same? Could potentially be an issue if the mounting points are different.

All the suspension hardpoints and the transmission and engine mount points have not moved across the entire GC/GD line except for the strut tower tops and perhaps the front engine and transmission crossmember mounting points to the unibody afaik. Track changes have resulted from control arm and axle length changes and not changes to the chassis tie-ins. Case-in-point: you can take an entire '04 sti drivetrain and swap it into a GC and everything will bolt right up except you may need to swap the driveshaft and the front engine mount subframe from a GC. There are countless threads where people address this on Nasioc and you should read these threads if you really want to know what changes across the subaru line. A good place to start for suspension parts is this thread:

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show....php?t=1303381

I'm sure there's a corresponding thread for drivetrain swaps but I just don't have it handy.

Calamity Jesus · 03-07-2012, 08:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 68Cadillac

Would love to see [...] the new electronic power steering in a build.

Hopefully, power steering won't be needed at all for a car this light.

Mechie3 · 03-07-2012, 08:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by REX8

For what?

My bad, forgot to write "steering rack". The bushings are different, but I don't know off hand if the bracket locations are the same (though 06 has the "bracket" build into the rack like the STI).

I'm well aware of the lego ability of the GC/GD chassis (and some legacy models as well) just have never done a swap myself to care about every last detail.

68Cadillac · 03-07-2012, 01:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Calamity Jesus

Hopefully, power steering won't be needed at all for a car this light.

That would be even more awesome.

mhoward1 · 03-07-2012, 02:00 PM

With the proposed tire size I agree, but if some meat in thrown on a good fast ratio P/S setup can be a plus.

HipToBeSquare · 03-07-2012, 03:29 PM

A car this light, and not bound by AWD to run the same tire size... the front tires need not be "meaty", and unsprung rotating weight can be reduced by running only the amount of front tire that is needed to not understeer due to lack of front traction.

The rear tires can be differently sized, and be enough to handle the installed amount of power without spinning unintentionally.

02-29-2012, 10:02 PM	#813
guitaraholic Scooby Newbie Member#: 156810 Join Date: Aug 2007	This isn't going to be a track car, though it will see some track time. The cranks aren't compatible, and with that the wallks are too thin for boost, even with the sleeves. I too would love a 3 rotor in it, with alluminum end/mid plates the engine would be crazy light, but 3-rotors get like 15mpg highway, and if you get on them (esp if turboed), you can get like 6mpg. Also, a 3 rotor is going to be expensive as hell, and not very reliable (one knock and you're rebulding the engine). Last edited by guitaraholic; 03-01-2012 at 03:02 AM.

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02-28-2012, 05:56 AM	#802
guitaraholic Scooby Newbie Member#: 156810 Join Date: Aug 2007	Not to slightly "hi-jack" this thread, but does anyone have the dimensions (especially the location of the output shafts) of the 6-speed transaxle. I'm thinking of using an EZ30 with a set of twins on a Superlite Coupe (another Component build car). I already have the kit, and its being delivered to my mechanic in a couple of weeks. I would have started another tread, but I can't yet (not enough posts)

02-28-2012, 06:40 AM	#803
MDRex Scooby Specialist Member#: 38477 Join Date: Jun 2003 Chapter/Region: MAIC Location: Columbia, MD Vehicle: 2011 WRX Hatch Satin White Pearl	Not to continue the hi-jack, but I love the Superlite Coupe. Good luck with the build.

02-28-2012, 10:20 AM	#804
StatGSR Scooby Newbie Member#: 105904 Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Duluth, MN Vehicle: 97 Legacy EG33 WGN	i got to sit in RCRs Bright Green SL-C last summer when i was at RCR. very cool car, and very nice people! just wish their kits were a little cheaper.

02-28-2012, 12:35 PM	#805
guitaraholic Scooby Newbie Member#: 156810 Join Date: Aug 2007	I'm actually going on shear faith. I have never sat in one or seen one in person. I did get to see a GTM in person, and sat in it. It wasn't bad looking but too "kit-carish" for me. That and you had to drive like you were fighting for the title to get visablity (roll bar too low up front) you won't be able to see any stoplights unless they are half a mile out. My friend/mechanic is the one building it for me (can't wait till he gets it and starts the build log). He came up with the idea of using an EZ30 with a set of twins. It should be lighter by 100lbs vs the LS(x), and have a nice exotic sound. Also with using the STI tranny, it will be a heck of a lot less expensive then the damn G50's. Hell a new 6 speed STI is 4 grand, , you can't even get a used G50 for that. If you want a 6 speed G50, you are talking 7 grand USED!!

02-28-2012, 08:31 PM	#806
Homemade WRX Scooby Guru Member#: 33782 Join Date: Mar 2003 Chapter/Region: MAIC Location: 3MI Racing LLC Vehicle: 96 bastard child search FIRST, then PM!!!	I sat in the SL-C at PRI and man, I want to shove a TT EZ30R into one so badly...well really, an EZ'32' tt I'd also look at using a Getrag from a Boxster S, much like the one that's sitting in my garage.

02-28-2012, 11:27 PM	#807
guitaraholic Scooby Newbie Member#: 156810 Join Date: Aug 2007	I don't think an EZ32tt would be possible. If you bored it out, the walls would be too thin, and if you stroke it and can get the 3.6 crank to work, it breaks at 400hp or less.

02-29-2012, 01:20 AM	#808
HipToBeSquare Scooby Specialist Member#: 119958 Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: (IA) flyover cornfield country Vehicle: 2005 Legacy GT Ltd. Garnet Red Pearl	It might be easier to use an EG33. I'm just saying. It is related to the EJ22, which was stock-turbocharged. The block and "bottom" end are pretty stout, and that car isn't short on engine bay length, being meant for a GM or Toyota V8 engine, unlike the Factory Five car, or stuffing it under the hood of a Subaru smaller than an SVX. An EG33 would need to be re-built with turbo-spec cams and pistons, maybe some sodium exhaust valves, and other general forced-induction consideration. But they aren't OBD-II before 1996, which makes ECU considerations easier, and that has been done before. Turbocharging the 3.0R is very rare, and 3.6 is pretty much unheard of. Unfortunately. They seem like they would have some potential, albeit their thinner cylinder walls and narrower cylinder pitch. But as much as I love flat 6 engines... I think in a race car like that, I would go with a 20B rotary, to be honest. more compact, lighter, fewer moving parts, and much wider and quicker rev range. Backed by a Porsche, Xtrac, or Hewland racing transaxle. Mazda should have built a mid-engined rotary sports/racing car with the engine behind the driver, rather than just the 787B LeMans cars, and the Furai concept car. Production would have been amazing as a limited production halo car.

02-29-2012, 01:55 AM	#809
guitaraholic Scooby Newbie Member#: 156810 Join Date: Aug 2007	I'm getting the EZ sleeved. One of the reasons I like the EZ is the variable timing will make it streetable at idle, yet breath enough on the top end. That and the engine is crazy light, about 150lbs lighter than the LS(x), even with the turbos and plumbing,, figure 100lbs lighter.

02-29-2012, 02:10 AM	#810
HipToBeSquare Scooby Specialist Member#: 119958 Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: (IA) flyover cornfield country Vehicle: 2005 Legacy GT Ltd. Garnet Red Pearl	Sounds like an interesting build, I would love to read a build thread about it when the build process gets underway.

02-29-2012, 07:00 PM	#812
HipToBeSquare Scooby Specialist Member#: 119958 Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: (IA) flyover cornfield country Vehicle: 2005 Legacy GT Ltd. Garnet Red Pearl	I so badly wish Mazda would put out the 16X as a crate engine, as well as in a new Mazda sports car. Aluminum end plates, direct injection... sounds great as a race engine. 787B and Furai. And a 3 or 4 rotor version... 24X or 32X... hell yes. I could even see a transverse rotary application, if they could sling the transaxle behind or below the engine, and center the mass of the drivetrain on the car's centerline. Dry sump would help, making the trans housing take the place of the oil sump... like the transaxle of a 512BB slung under the flat 12, rather than in line with it. I don't even think the engine would need to be 'upright'. Intake and exhaust could be on the high side of the engine, with the plugs and injectors, alternator, and oil pump on the under-side (shielded from debris, of course). up facing exhaust would help with the heat soak issue, and the transaxle could be on the aft-facing side of the engine... as mentioned, forming half of the dry-sump enclosure. A Rotrak traction-drive engine-intake-calibrated mechanical supercharger to pressurize the rotary intake, and an exhaust turbine geared to add exhaust thermal energy recovered torque to the e-shaft output (more than offset the mechanical output to the supercharger, and doesn't tie compressor speed to turbine speed. no lag, no waste-gate, less blow-off.)... a KERS generator unit that also supplies electrical power to the vehicle, and acts as a starter, to charge a capacitor bank for electric torque boost at low speeds, where the rotary is less efficient. I have some ideas Much beyond this... it does start to look better to just eliminate the middle-man, and go to Turboshaft power, with the cooling, thermal, noise, and debris ingestion issues to take care of.

03-01-2012, 01:45 PM	#814
Homemade WRX Scooby Guru Member#: 33782 Join Date: Mar 2003 Chapter/Region: MAIC Location: 3MI Racing LLC Vehicle: 96 bastard child search FIRST, then PM!!!	Outfront has boosted the EZ36 and they're the ones who started failing the cranks. So it can be done. The cranks can 'be' compatable but you'll need a machine shop. Like I said, if you want to boost and make big power, grab and EG.

03-02-2012, 12:05 PM	#816
HipToBeSquare Scooby Specialist Member#: 119958 Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: (IA) flyover cornfield country Vehicle: 2005 Legacy GT Ltd. Garnet Red Pearl	Looking like good progress. Looking forward to documentation of initial builds.

03-05-2012, 08:56 PM	#817
Mechie3 Scooby Guru Member#: 120152 Join Date: Jul 2006 Chapter/Region: MWSOC Location: Indy Vehicle: 2006 06 WRX, 86 FMOD Blue, White/Red	Sorry if this has been covered. I know the bushings for different year wrxs are different, but are the mounting points on the subframe the same? Could potentially be an issue if the mounting points are different.

03-06-2012, 01:43 PM	#818
68Cadillac Scooby Specialist Member#: 95901 Join Date: Sep 2005 Chapter/Region: SWIC Location: Las Vegas, USA Vehicle: 2004 WRX Wagon White	Would love to see Subaru's CVT and the new electronic power steering in a build.

03-07-2012, 02:00 PM	#824
mhoward1 Scooby Specialist Member#: 9481 Join Date: Aug 2001 Chapter/Region: South East Location: FFR Challenge #43 Vehicle: 2011 Carrera 4s 2009 BMW M5	With the proposed tire size I agree, but if some meat in thrown on a good fast ratio P/S setup can be a plus.

03-07-2012, 03:29 PM	#825
HipToBeSquare Scooby Specialist Member#: 119958 Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: (IA) flyover cornfield country Vehicle: 2005 Legacy GT Ltd. Garnet Red Pearl	A car this light, and not bound by AWD to run the same tire size... the front tires need not be "meaty", and unsprung rotating weight can be reduced by running only the amount of front tire that is needed to not understeer due to lack of front traction. The rear tires can be differently sized, and be enough to handle the installed amount of power without spinning unintentionally.