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Old 02-18-2011, 03:00 PM   #101
jackiechan78
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I'm stoked about this. I wanted a Cobra as well but the price and donor price was/is too high. But my 2002 wrx with 129k miles will be retired in the next few years and will make a nice donor for this FFR Suby kit. I'm really excited for this!
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Old 02-18-2011, 06:04 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by jackiechan78 View Post
I'm stoked about this. I wanted a Cobra as well but the price and donor price was/is too high. But my 2002 wrx with 129k miles will be retired in the next few years and will make a nice donor for this FFR Suby kit. I'm really excited for this!
you meant a Shelby/AC Cobra? You can just get one used for $65k.... 500-600 hp instead of 200hp...
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Old 02-18-2011, 10:31 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by jackiechan78 View Post
I'm stoked about this. I wanted a Cobra as well but the price and donor price was/is too high. But my 2002 wrx with 129k miles will be retired in the next few years and will make a nice donor for this FFR Suby kit. I'm really excited for this!
I'm in a similar situation. I have a 02' WRX that I've been thinking of ditching for a few years. Now with this out with a target price of $10k, I'm considering holding the WRX, assuming the FFR kit is streetable. I'd then get an eco-car for daily driving.
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Old 02-18-2011, 11:23 PM   #104
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Crumple zones?
C'mon guys. It's going to be a race car that you can inspect and title according to local laws. It will not have airbags, or sat nav or heated headlights. F5 know how to build a safe cage and I would feel plenty safe driving one on the road.

Most of these do not have "crumple zones"
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Old 02-19-2011, 12:34 AM   #105
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Instead of a WRX... I've got an SVX. I am thinking that a built EG33 backed by a manual gearbox set amidships would be fun, fun, fun. Possibly better power to weight ratio than Cayman with cheaper running costs kind of fun.

30 Grand buys you a used Cayman. A 10-grand kit, with another 5-8 grand in engine building leaves another 12-15 grand to play with finishing the build out and other trick things, before eclipsing the budget just to buy into a used Porsche, not counting if the Porsche needs any attention once it is purchased, at Porsche labor and parts rates.

A stock NA EG33 has about as much horsepower as an early WRX turbo. Plus the EG can be tuned, and if properly built with cam and piston replacements, it can be turbocharged just like an EJ22. Turbo EG33s can exceed 400hp, and the best tuned naturally aspirated ones can break well over 300hp, like a certain engine-swapped GC coupe road-race car.

Not to say that a tuned-up EZ30R or EZ36 wouldn't also be interesting... if you can find someone to tune one up... Not a lot of aftermarket support for the EZ series.

Sounds like a LOT of fun.

Last edited by HipToBeSquare; 02-19-2011 at 12:43 AM.
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Old 02-19-2011, 12:19 PM   #106
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I've read the Factory Five manual for the '65 roadster a couple of times. FF will most likely use a motor mount setup for the most commonly available engine ( the 2.0). Anything other than that will have to be custom fab'd or special ordered.

Don't know about tranny mounting setup, but your SVX motor would open up a lot of custom work. Personally I would stick to what the kit is designed around, and still have a 0-60 of 3-4.5 seconds? Not good enough? Turbo, Ecu upgrades etc.

As long as the design is cool, I'm in line for one of these - affordable supercar performance is what Factory Five is all about.
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Old 02-19-2011, 12:30 PM   #107
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I'd stick to EJ207/257 for both simplicity and weight. A turbo EG33 would be fun but a car like this should be as light as possible and would still be ridiculously fast even on a stock 207/257.

I'll definitely be keeping an eye on this project. I've always wanted to build a kit car, and like many here have loved most of what FFR has produced.
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Old 02-19-2011, 05:29 PM   #108
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I'd stick to EJ207/257 for both simplicity and weight. A turbo EG33 would be fun but a car like this should be as light as possible and would still be ridiculously fast even on a stock 207/257.

I'll definitely be keeping an eye on this project. I've always wanted to build a kit car, and like many here have loved most of what FFR has produced.
I'm not even sure that a EJ20/Ej255/7 would even be needed.
I'm thinking EJ251 with high compression pistons, cams and worked over cylinder heads. Run it with a megasquirt and be happy with ~ 190hp in a 1800 (figure a hair over 2,000 with driver and gas) Mostly thinking that because I have a 2002 OBS with a **** body attacched to it
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Old 02-19-2011, 07:17 PM   #109
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Originally Posted by drifter dave View Post
I've read the Factory Five manual for the '65 roadster a couple of times. FF will most likely use a motor mount setup for the most commonly available engine ( the 2.0). Anything other than that will have to be custom fab'd or special ordered.

Don't know about tranny mounting setup, but your SVX motor would open up a lot of custom work. Personally I would stick to what the kit is designed around, and still have a 0-60 of 3-4.5 seconds? Not good enough? Turbo, Ecu upgrades etc.

As long as the design is cool, I'm in line for one of these - affordable supercar performance is what Factory Five is all about.
A lot of custom work?

How?

It has the same bell-housing pattern as any EJ subaru engine. It also uses the same engine mounts.

The only difference is that it has DOHCs with an NA engine, which the NA EJ motors are sometimes SOHC, and the EG is obviously a few inches longer by having another pair of pistons

I have already suggested on Factory Five Forums to include enough space in the chassis for an EG engine, which also defacto means that there would be room for any EJ, FB, or EZ engine, also, as they are shorter in length than the EG.

As long as the engine bay is long enough for the EG to physically fit without interference, the technical aspects of connecting it to the gearbox, or engine mounts are no different than any Subaru engine pre-2010 Legacy/Outback, which use a new subframe mount arrangement.

Plus the radiator isn't in the engine bay on a mid-engined car, because the engine bay isn't in the front. The EG fits in most Subarus, but usually requires moving the radiator forward an inch or two.

But the EG is one of the best engines Subaru has produced, and is more tune-able than the EZ. ECUtune, and some other existing EG/SVX tuners still know how to build a very healthy EG33, NA or Turbo.

Plus, even a stock SVX is butter smooth, with a 60-degree firing order, and a V12-like song. With mild NA tuning like opening up the intake tract and exhaust for easier flow, it sings even sweeter, and you don't have to worry about the heat, intercooling, pre-detonation, turbo failure, or broken ring-lands of some Subaru turbo flat 4s.

Unsaddled from the stock automatic gearbox, and un-corked a bit, due to not having to keep said automatic from blowing up, and the pretty cheap availability of the engines, it is a high quality and reliability per dollar option.

again, as long as it fits, and I have already suggested it.
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Old 02-19-2011, 08:06 PM   #110
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Originally Posted by Hondaslayer View Post
I'm not even sure that a EJ20/Ej255/7 would even be needed.
I'm thinking EJ251 with high compression pistons, cams and worked over cylinder heads. Run it with a megasquirt and be happy with ~ 190hp in a 1800 (figure a hair over 2,000 with driver and gas) Mostly thinking that because I have a 2002 OBS with a **** body attacched to it
Yeah, a tuned N/A EJ would be fun, economical and pretty fast too. If I built this I'd want it to be faster than my current 2750 lb EJ257 GC8 though and I doubt an N/A EJ would manage that. I'd probably try to find a wrecked Forester XT. EJ255 has lots of potential and I like the gear ratios of the XT 5 speed.
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Old 02-20-2011, 03:11 PM   #111
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EG is obviously a few inches longer
If there is room and the motor/trans mounts are identical, then you're right, there wouldn't be any fab work. Hopefully there is room however. It's all speculation until FF releases it's assembly manual.

The weight difference between the two motors would be a consideration for sure.
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Old 02-20-2011, 03:35 PM   #112
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According to FF, the chassis is basically done and the wheelbase is already locked in at 85". So whether or not the H6s will fit has already been determined, we just are not privy to that information yet.

The design contest starts March 1st, so I would expect to see a CAD version of the frame at that time.
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Old 02-20-2011, 05:29 PM   #113
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According to FF, the chassis is basically done and the wheelbase is already locked in at 85". So whether or not the H6s will fit has already been determined, we just are not privy to that information yet.

The design contest starts March 1st, so I would expect to see a CAD version of the frame at that time.
The EZ is right around 2cm longer than the EJ. If the EJ will fit the EZ will likely fit as well.

According to FFR's comments on their own forums, nothing is really locked in... they're waiting for what comes out of the design contest before setting anything in stone.
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Old 02-20-2011, 05:43 PM   #114
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Originally Posted by HipToBeSquare View Post
again, as long as it fits, and I have already suggested it.
It won't happen and it shouldn't happen. The EG engines have been out of service for around half a decade. The EZ is still in production, but the pull of the EJ is that there are mountains of them ready to be swapped around. I'm curious if they're going to investigate the use of the new FB engines.
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Old 02-21-2011, 12:54 AM   #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RallyColtTurbo View Post
According to FF, the chassis is basically done and the wheelbase is already locked in at 85".
The wheelbase is 95", not 85".

http://www.factoryfive.com/whatsnew/...tcar/info.html
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Old 02-21-2011, 03:33 AM   #116
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Yep, typo on my part.

85" would be tight for anything but a transverse motor.
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Old 02-21-2011, 05:34 AM   #117
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It won't happen and it shouldn't happen. The EG engines have been out of service for around half a decade. The EZ is still in production, but the pull of the EJ is that there are mountains of them ready to be swapped around. I'm curious if they're going to investigate the use of the new FB engines.
Subaru has been selling EZ30 cars since MY01... a year longer than the modern turbocharged EJs. There are plenty of wrecked 2001+ Outbacks out there waiting to have their H6s plucked from them.

As was already pointed out.. there would have to be minimal concessions made and for some of us, a powerful N/A motor is a much bigger draw than Subaru's usual laggy turbos.
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Old 02-21-2011, 06:07 AM   #118
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Crumple zones?
C'mon guys. It's going to be a race car that you can inspect and title according to local laws. It will not have airbags, or sat nav or heated headlights. F5 know how to build a safe cage and I would feel plenty safe driving one on the road.
Look.. I'm sure FFR will have some crush space built in. They have crumple zones on their other products. At the end of the day, though.. they aren't crash tested and they aren't substitutes for your daily driver.

I'm saying this as an avid motorcyclist... that would gladly drive a FFR car on a regular basis (ie: weekly) in traffic. I'm not a safety nazi.

Quote:
Originally Posted by drifter dave View Post
Most of these do not have "crumple zones"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9u361gl6KWs
Uhh.. actually.. most of those do. The vast majority of the cars in that video were production cars with cages added to them. I'm not sure what you're trying to prove by showing a bunch of big spectacular crashes. The most lethal crashes are the ones that aren't impressive to watch... not to say that some of those weren't lethal.

---

For those of you thinking "new daily driver" when you think about this car..

The FFR Roadster starts at $12,990 (30% more expensive than the WRX-based roadster) and doesn't have side windows, a roof, wipers or HVAC (ie: not even street legal). This isn't going to be a Lotus Elise for $15,000.. it's going to be a fair weather only car unless you're willing to spend a lot more to add some streetable features.

Now, I'm not saying that the $10,000 kit will not have wipers or HVAC. FFR will hopefully find a way to salvage as much as possible from the donor WRX. But there will be compromises somewhere... and it's unlikely the kit will have windows unless they're vinyl and snap/zip into place on the hardtop. The hardtop will probably be an extra option as well. All I'm saying is.. get the notion of a $15,000 panty-dropping supercar out of your head and start thinking high quality kit car with far fewer amenities than you're used to.

If you're reading this thread and thinking about how awesome a lightweight, powerful, 2 seat seat with incredible handling would be... but believe that safety is an overrated concept.. you can pick up a far faster and more track worthy BMW S1000RR for about $15,000 and it won't require 250 hours to build.
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Old 02-21-2011, 09:14 AM   #119
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Subaru has been selling EZ30 cars since MY01... a year longer than the modern turbocharged EJs. There are plenty of wrecked 2001+ Outbacks out there waiting to have their H6s plucked from them.

As was already pointed out.. there would have to be minimal concessions made and for some of us, a powerful N/A motor is a much bigger draw than Subaru's usual laggy turbos.
The sales figures alone make the EJ the engine of choice. Projected sales would probably even put the FB ahead of the EZ.
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Old 02-21-2011, 10:40 AM   #120
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Originally Posted by drifter dave View Post
Crumple zones?
C'mon guys. It's going to be a race car that you can inspect and title according to local laws. It will not have airbags, or sat nav or heated headlights. F5 know how to build a safe cage and I would feel plenty safe driving one on the road.
You'll be wearing a helmet, HANS, fire suit and 6 point harness on the street? Streets that apparently have no massive vehicles or oncoming traffic. You'd still be left with far less of a "cage" than any race car. It will likely be less safe than virtually any other car on the road, but as long as you understand the risks it has the potential to be a great toy car.
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Old 02-21-2011, 12:23 PM   #121
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The sales figures alone make the EJ the engine of choice. Projected sales would probably even put the FB ahead of the EZ.
Obviously the EJ would be the engine of choice (that's what the whole concept is built around).. but unless FFR is dead set on putting the firewall a finger's width from the front of the engine, there would be nothing to preclude using an EZ30 in it's place.

The engine mounts are the same, the bell housing bolts are the same... the only difference would be that you'd need to fab up a custom exhaust and do your own wiring.
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Old 02-21-2011, 02:37 PM   #122
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Obviously the EJ would be the engine of choice (that's what the whole concept is built around).. but unless FFR is dead set on putting the firewall a finger's width from the front of the engine, there would be nothing to preclude using an EZ30 in it's place.

The engine mounts are the same, the bell housing bolts are the same... the only difference would be that you'd need to fab up a custom exhaust and do your own wiring.
This isn't even a question for me. "there's no replacement for displacement".
I will build one and it will be a 6 cylinder.

Why would wiring be any different.
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Old 02-21-2011, 02:53 PM   #123
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Originally Posted by needcarinmass View Post
"there's no replacement for displacement".
That saying only works for engines having relatively even horsepower numbers. As in, a 5.0l engine making 250 HP is likely going to have a much larger powerband than a 2.0l turbo or hihg-revving powerplant making the same power.

And, considering the very light-weight nature of this car, giving up some off-idle power for improved midrange and top end power seems to make even more sense.
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Old 02-22-2011, 10:54 AM   #124
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Old 02-22-2011, 12:34 PM   #125
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Why would wiring be any different.
One of the biggest hurdles in swapping the late model EZs into the Impreza is the difference in wiring. The ECU on the '05+ (IIRC) EZ requires inputs from wheel speed sensors and various other sensors to even turn over.

I don't know what the rules are for OBDII on kit cars.. I'm assuming you don't need it... in which case a Hydra or MegaSquirt would clear up that issue fairly "simply".

Quote:
Originally Posted by REX8 View Post
That saying only works for engines having relatively even horsepower numbers. As in, a 5.0l engine making 250 HP is likely going to have a much larger powerband than a 2.0l turbo or hihg-revving powerplant making the same power.

And, considering the very light-weight nature of this car, giving up some off-idle power for improved midrange and top end power seems to make even more sense.
Removing the turbo lag factor from the power delivery when driving a balanced car like this at the limit is what makes the 6 cylinder so much more intriguing to me.
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