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Old 04-10-2013, 11:00 AM   #1226
Mechie3
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Originally Posted by Se7enrex View Post
Damn those things are ugly as sin, eek
I've seen better (photoshopped) front bumpers. Other than that I like it.

Don't forget, GR STI's aren't exactly pretty either.
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Old 04-10-2013, 02:47 PM   #1227
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Isn't the whole point of building your own car, that you can make it simpler, and better than a mass-produced vehicle that has to appeal widely enough to sell en-masse?

If it isn't going to be gorgeous, why not just modify a production car?

What was the point of holding such an extensive design contest, if the body is going to look ridiculous anyway? They got several really good suggestions, and didn't use them.

Frankly, I wonder if Factory Five will sell just the hardware, and leave the body off.

A Hawk Stratos Body might fit... and with some composites skill, perhaps the stratos kit body could be updated to look like the neo-Stratos that Ferrari kiboshed. Or maybe even some sort of targa-like open roof version.




A chassis and driveline with Subaru mechanicals has nothing to do with Ferrari, and the body design is a Lancia-base, not a Ferrari clone... so Ferrari can pound sand.
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Old 04-10-2013, 02:59 PM   #1228
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If the mission of the car is lightweight and high performance oriented for a minimal price, then I don't think "gorgeous" is the priority. Not to mention that looks are so subjective that there is No way to make it universally appealing.
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Old 04-10-2013, 03:18 PM   #1229
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Originally Posted by HipToBeSquare View Post
Isn't the whole point of building your own car, that you can make it simpler, and better than a mass-produced vehicle that has to appeal widely enough to sell en-masse?

If it isn't going to be gorgeous, why not just modify a production car?

What was the point of holding such an extensive design contest, if the body is going to look ridiculous anyway? They got several really good suggestions, and didn't use them.

Frankly, I wonder if Factory Five will sell just the hardware, and leave the body off.

A Hawk Stratos Body might fit... and with some composites skill, perhaps the stratos kit body could be updated to look like the neo-Stratos that Ferrari kiboshed. Or maybe even some sort of targa-like open roof version.




A chassis and driveline with Subaru mechanicals has nothing to do with Ferrari, and the body design is a Lancia-base, not a Ferrari clone... so Ferrari can pound sand.
I had the same idea a while ago. I would love to buy the FF818 chassis and put a Lancia body on it. I think the biggest obstacle would be getting a windshield shaped like that. I forgot all about the Hawk replica. Maybe that will be the easiest way to do it.

Last edited by spaceywilly; 04-10-2013 at 03:23 PM.
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Old 04-10-2013, 04:26 PM   #1230
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Originally Posted by mhoward1 View Post
If the mission of the car is lightweight and high performance oriented for a minimal price, then I don't think "gorgeous" is the priority. Not to mention that looks are so subjective that there is No way to make it universally appealing.
Agreed that one can't please everyone.

But the 818 body doesn't have an attractive angle.

it isn't a selling point, it is an obstacle to selling the car.

Why not just buy a 914 and put a Subaru drivetrain in it, as some have done, if you don't care about looks?

More minimal price than this to buy a 914 donor.

With a thin composite body over a spaceframe, the body could be much more attractive than it is, without much under-skin engineering changes, and there were many good suggestions that apparently didn't inform the final design much at all.

The body actually makes me less interested in this project, as I wouldn't use the body, wouldn't want to pay for that body, and would have to try and fit an alternate body from an alternate source, which is more expertise and expense required.
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Old 04-10-2013, 04:34 PM   #1231
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Originally Posted by HipToBeSquare View Post
Agreed that one can't please everyone.

But the 818 body doesn't have an attractive angle.

it isn't a selling point, it is an obstacle to selling the car.

.
This is the issue. I personally disagree. I have seen and sat in the car and I like it. Is it my favorite...no, but I don't find it's looks to be an obsticle at all. yes, it's my own opinion. SO the car may not be for you or anyone else who doen't like it, but there seems to still be plenty who like it for what it is. Quite a few pre-orders are already on the books.
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Old 04-11-2013, 01:07 PM   #1232
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mhoward1 View Post
Is it my favorite...no, but I don't find it's looks to be an obsticle at all.
.. but enough about the FR-S/BRZ...


I'll post it again:

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Originally Posted by Calamity Jesus View Post
Are there any good looking cars under $35,000?
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Old 04-11-2013, 01:54 PM   #1233
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Originally Posted by HipToBeSquare View Post
Isn't the whole point of building your own car, that you can make it simpler, and better than a mass-produced vehicle that has to appeal widely enough to sell en-masse?

If it isn't going to be gorgeous, why not just modify a production car?
1: You're in the wrong mindset. Your mindset is "I'm building a kit with explicit instructions of how I MUST build this". The mindset of 80% of the FFR forums is "I'm building a kit that I can build anyway I want because it's MY kit".

2: Show me a RWD production car with similar performance traits for less. After owning/working on my fmod, it is so much easier than working on a production car. Stamped steel bits? Rusty metal? Screw that. Everything is purpose built (and not cost cutting purposes).

Remember too, most of the concepts for the contest were NOT manufacturable (at least not for less than $10k for the body work alone).

Quote:
Originally Posted by mhoward1 View Post
If the mission of the car is lightweight and high performance oriented for a minimal price, then I don't think "gorgeous" is the priority. Not to mention that looks are so subjective that there is No way to make it universally appealing.
This. No other car comes close in performance AND cost.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HipToBeSquare View Post
Agreed that one can't please everyone.

But the 818 body doesn't have an attractive angle.

it isn't a selling point, it is an obstacle to selling the car.

Why not just buy a 914 and put a Subaru drivetrain in it, as some have done, if you don't care about looks?
Agreed...you don't seem to every like anything obtainable.

I like everything except the front nose. It's livable, and people that have seen it in person like it.

818 already has over 120 (or was it 150?) orders? Must be a big obstacle to selling. If you want one you're already waiting until around summer 2014 now to be able to take delivery.

914 swapping takes more time, and probably more money in the end, and won't be as nice, fast, or unique.

Here is a front end photoshop I like. Only requires changing the front bumper.


Quote:
Originally Posted by mhoward1 View Post
This is the issue. I personally disagree. I have seen and sat in the car and I like it. Is it my favorite...no, but I don't find it's looks to be an obsticle at all. yes, it's my own opinion. SO the car may not be for you or anyone else who doen't like it, but there seems to still be plenty who like it for what it is. Quite a few pre-orders are already on the books.
THIS.

I don't keep track of H2BS, but my faint memories recall him only liking cars either not available in the US, or costing 3x what he's willing to pay.
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Old 04-11-2013, 02:08 PM   #1234
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Remember too, most of the concepts for the contest were NOT manufacturable (at least not for less than $10k for the body work alone).
That's fine, but shapes are shapes and will all get made the same. I'm fond of some pieces of the styling, but as a whole, it looks entirely disjunctive.



The side scoops not matching the front, the door shape having a straight edge along the front and curved in the back, the hood holes seemingly pointless, hard body lines on a smooth profile car with way too many strokes, the side skirts that are boxy; the list goes on. It's like 10 different people designed different parts of the car and they put them all together.
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Old 04-11-2013, 02:15 PM   #1235
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Are there any good looking cars under $35,000?
There's a reason for that. Complicated curves are difficult to manufacture. I think that is the real reason FF didn't use any of the submitted design ideas. Jim (the designer) knows what he would like it to look like, and he knows what's possible using the technology they have. The thing to remember is that this is a $10,000 kit designed with performance as the primary metric. If it is faster than $50,000 cars, will anyone care how it looks? The blue R version they showed at the open house was not bad looking at all. It's not a Ferrari, but it'll do. I am holding out for the coupe version but I would not mind building the current version if I had the chance.

I'm sure we could all sit here all day listing our favorite design submissions, and our favorite cars from the past that we wish they could reproduce, but in reality they have to do what they can with the technology they have, and do it in a way that will keep it affordable. It seems they have hit the mark with this kit because there is already a huge preorder list. As with any car, or any engineered product for that matter, you have to balance desired features with cost to implement them.

Last edited by spaceywilly; 04-11-2013 at 02:27 PM.
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Old 04-11-2013, 03:22 PM   #1236
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That's fine, but shapes are shapes and will all get made the same.
Made with the same general process, yes. Made the same? No. Almost every piece on this car (from what I can see/read) can be made with a rather simple open/close 2 piece mold (they were trying to make molded plastic panels). Start adding undercuts, etc, and you're adding slides, pulls, etc and the cost of a mold and each part goes up quickly.

The roadster looks less chopped down too. Front holes aren't pointless either. The radiator is up front and needs to vent somewhere.

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Old 04-11-2013, 03:31 PM   #1237
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Originally Posted by spaceywilly View Post
I'm sure we could all sit here all day listing our favorite design submissions, and our favorite cars from the past that we wish they could reproduce, but in reality they have to do what they can with the technology they have, and do it in a way that will keep it affordable. It seems they have hit the mark with this kit because there is already a huge preorder list.
~150 people putting down a refundable $99 deposit is a huge list? I'm sure many are speculators as with any pre-sales list. I'm still interested in building one but am disappointed at how unexciting it looks, hopefully I will like it more in person.

The first builders are going to be beta testers, there will be plenty of build issues they will need to work out, just like the Roadster guys had to do. So I have no problem waiting until 2014 or later to jump in.
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Old 04-11-2013, 03:54 PM   #1238
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~150 people putting down a refundable $99 deposit is a huge list? I'm sure many are speculators as with any pre-sales list. I'm still interested in building one but am disappointed at how unexciting it looks, hopefully I will like it more in person.

The first builders are going to be beta testers, there will be plenty of build issues they will need to work out, just like the Roadster guys had to do. So I have no problem waiting until 2014 or later to jump in.
There are no official Beta builders as there were with the Cobra project.

Also, the deposit is NON-refundable.
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Old 04-11-2013, 04:01 PM   #1239
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Official or not, these people are the beta testers. They are going to be the ones uncovering fitment issues, instruction inaccuracies... just like the Roadster guys had to do. It will be much easier to build one of these a year or two after the first kits have been completed and the process better documented.
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Old 04-11-2013, 04:05 PM   #1240
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Originally Posted by Snowphun View Post
~150 people putting down a refundable $99 deposit is a huge list? I'm sure many are speculators as with any pre-sales list. I'm still interested in building one but am disappointed at how unexciting it looks, hopefully I will like it more in person.

The first builders are going to be beta testers, there will be plenty of build issues they will need to work out, just like the Roadster guys had to do. So I have no problem waiting until 2014 or later to jump in.
For Factory Five it is a huge list. I think if you order your kit today you will get it sometime in November. I'm sure most manufacturers in any industry would be happy to have an 8 month backlog of orders. I am also waiting for a coupe or at least for the initial kinkds to be worked out, but it seems like it is selling like hot cakes by kit car standards.
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Old 04-11-2013, 04:15 PM   #1241
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Originally Posted by spaceywilly View Post
For Factory Five it is a huge list. I think if you order your kit today you will get it sometime in November. I'm sure most manufacturers in any industry would be happy to have an 8 month backlog of orders. I am also waiting for a coupe or at least for the initial kinkds to be worked out, but it seems like it is selling like hot cakes by kit car standards.
It's not an 8 month backlog.. production hasn't even started yet.
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Old 04-11-2013, 04:20 PM   #1242
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I'm not their target audience, I guess, but regardless of the price, this car is ugly. So many mismatched lines and panels.
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Old 04-11-2013, 04:24 PM   #1243
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I placed my pre-order in January 2013 and my target production date is March 15, 2014. There were about 130 pre-orders at the time of my order.

I think there was a post by Dave on the official forum stating that they do have some beta builders lined up. Whatever they are calling them, I believe there is a few hand picked people/groups that will build the first 818's outside of FFR.
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Old 04-11-2013, 04:49 PM   #1244
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Dave posted there is no Beta program like for the roadster and GTM. Grass Roots motorsports is building the first one as the official Beta. Also, Erik Treves is getting one of the first sold units. He's built several FFR kits in the past and will help work stuff out. According to an unnofficial list, I'm number 6 but more liklely am number 12 (2 per week, delivery starts june 15th).

Orders on the unofficial list are out to May of 2014.
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Old 04-11-2013, 04:52 PM   #1245
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I'm not their target audience, I guess, but regardless of the price, this car is ugly. So many mismatched lines and panels.
This is also a prototype using the second set of molds? They've said theyre making at least 1 more set of molds and continuing to tweak the body. The roadster (cobra) is now on it's 4th version of the body IIRC.
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Old 04-13-2013, 08:39 AM   #1246
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Interesting to see all the different opinions.

I think the car looks great, if I didn't I wouldn't have ordered one. I don't think red is the most flattering color on it though.

I purposely delayed delivery of mine until April 2014 because that's when I was supposed to be moving back to the US and I don't want to build it in an unheated garage in the winter.

I'm really excited for it, been gathering parts together from junkyards and friends. I've got enough parts now so I don't even need to buy a donor car since I've just taken most of what I need from junkyard cars for really cheap.
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Old 04-13-2013, 11:02 AM   #1247
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I think it looks cheap and mediocre but I'm mostly just annoyed that they held the design contest only to disregard all entries and build what they had planned from the beginning. It was just an advertising stunt for Solidworks.

I'm looking forward to seeing what interesting things some people manage to build from these kits, but after some of the cool designs submitted, I can't really get excited about the form. I have several N/A Subaru drivetrains in decent condition that I could use to build one of these.. but I don't have the time. Even if I did have time, I would need something really special to motivate me to complete the build.. and it just isn't, IMO.
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Old 04-15-2013, 11:04 AM   #1248
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Originally Posted by WRXHillClimb View Post
That's fine, but shapes are shapes and will all get made the same. I'm fond of some pieces of the styling, but as a whole, it looks entirely disjunctive.



The side scoops not matching the front, the door shape having a straight edge along the front and curved in the back, the hood holes seemingly pointless, hard body lines on a smooth profile car with way too many strokes, the side skirts that are boxy; the list goes on. It's like 10 different people designed different parts of the car and they put them all together.
A timeless classic has that door shape of straight edge along the front and curved in back:



With that said, I'm not sure what people were expecting for the price point that this is being offered at. I think it looks decent for what it is and it will probably be an awesome toy for the track, which IMO, is the most important part.
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Old 04-15-2013, 12:06 PM   #1249
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It's not so much the design as it is the unneeded emphasis placed thanks to the bulky flared and un-molded front fender as well lack of conjunctive design (something the RX-7 has plenty of with similar styling throughout the whole car's body).
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Old 04-15-2013, 12:32 PM   #1250
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It's not so much the design as it is the unneeded emphasis placed thanks to the bulky flared and un-molded front fender as well lack of conjunctive design (something the RX-7 has plenty of with similar styling throughout the whole car's body).
It's a kit car... not a production car nor exotic car. It's a great looking car for what it is. It's a low volume kit for an affordable price.

If people wanted to build a kit car, they want it to look like one, not act like an exotic or any production car.

You can find those fake Ferrari and Lamborghini kits for conversions for MR2s, why?? ...To have a Ferrari for less, at the end of the day it's still not a Ferrari.
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