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Old 07-21-2013, 02:24 PM   #1351
mhoward1
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Swine View Post
Looks like this car could be a handful. More chassis running needed?
That's more of John's style than the car. I'd never call him smooth, but his entry speeds are awesome. There is a reason he holds over 10 track records. The car itself is Very easy to drive.
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Old 07-21-2013, 04:46 PM   #1352
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Originally Posted by Calamity Jesus View Post
I'd love to know how you've managed to come to that conclusion from that video.
Conclusion arrived from what seems to be pretty fast and jittery steering. Could just be drivers style. Ive also have yet to make it out to VIR or know the tricky sections of that track. Let's also recall I said "looks like" and "could" which reflects the fact that I don't actually know and am speculating what I see on camera vs my experiences on track. Open for input.


Edit: what mhoward said.
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Old 07-22-2013, 12:05 PM   #1353
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So here is John's summary of the day

Quote:
Hi all,

Incar video of fast lap of the weekend in 818R with no 3rd gear: http://vimeo.com/70672130

Thanks Dave Smith and Jim Schenck in entrusting me to drive the 818R at VIR in UTCC 2013. We had high hopes for this weekend signing up not only to participate in the UTCC but also in test/tune sessions to use those extra sessions to better the car. 818R with 340RWHP, Yokahama racing slicks, aero tested 2 days before at the wind-tunnel, WOW! a recipe for a great weekend.

Our first track session with the 818R at VIR was in test/tune session 1, I took it easy getting familiar with the FFR 818R finally on a proper road course which I know very well, and was easily putting around in the 2:11's. The guys made a bunch of changes with regards to ride height at the wind-tunnel test two days prior and the handling of the car was not to my liking at speed, very twitchy. Unfortunately the track scales opened after lunch so we could not scale it right away, they made some ride height adjustments as I was scraping the front splitter under braking, and sent me back out for UTCC warmup session.

I took it easy still running in the 2:11's, the changes made were in the right direction but still not optimal. Next lap took turn 1 as normal, shifted into 3rd, then 4th, back to 3rd for turn 3, gently back on the power, the boost building up and bang! lots of grinding metal noises, 3rd gear gone in an instant! quickly fiddled withe the shifter, got it in 4th, finished the lap and came in. Uhg! such a disappointment..

What to do now? no way fast times were going to be seen without 3rd gear at a track that only uses 3rd, 4th and 5th. Lets try to figure out why the car was not behaving at speed. We made some more changes, and sent me back out.

Next session out was the first UTCC timed session, I was gridded at the front with a bunch of cars behind me. Having no 3rd makes driving in close proximity to other cars extremely difficult. I have to use momentum and the massive grip of the slicks to stay in the power band in 4th, but with other cars around me getting balked in the turns makes it impossible to get a decent lap. You need 3rd coming out of turn 1, going through turns 3-5, coming out of oak tree (turn 12) onto the back straight - very important turn to get a great launch as it leads to a massive straight, and out of the rollercoaster into hogpen (turns 14-16.) With all the traffic behind and infront I was unable to get a clean lap and only managed to run best of 2:18's, very disheartening.

The scales were open now, the guys scaled the car (think it came in just over 1900lb) and the cross weight was completely off.. They changed the ride height by 16 turns in total on the drivers side (raised the drivers front 8 turns, lowered the drivers rear 8 turns, that is a massive adjustment btw) re-scaled it, and was back to 50% cross. We decided to skip the rest of the test/tune sessions and only focus on running the UTCC timed sessions as we didnt know how much longer this transmission would last.

UTCC timed session #2 I started late to try to get some clean laps, there was a BMW in front of me and I practically stopped on track to get a good gap to him, then went for it. Use momentum, be smooth, maximize the grip of the tires, try to do 2nd to 4th shifts quickly to not loose the boost. Problem was the transmission has a hard time shifting fast now and I had to fight to get it in 2nd, you can see I almost went off in turn 1 fighting with the trans. It really bogged coming through turn 2, loosing probably 2-3 seconds there. Driving the VIR esses is something special when you have slicks and aero. In my FFR Challenge car I enter at 120mph, but come out of the esses at 100mph. With the 818 enter at 120mph but am able to maintain that speed throughout! Then turn 10, a really fast lefthander, you dab on the brakes, then turn.. (was 20mph faster there and 1.5+G's with the 818R vs my Challenge car) Got to love down-force! Amazing! I shifted down to 2nd for oak tree, on straight shift as fast as I could to 4th, still felt like in the boost.. good! tighten seat belts, play with flashing the front lights, shift into 5th and get ready to slam on the brakes for the rollercoaster turn 14. Downshift from 5th to 4th was a little painful but got it done, then concentrate and flow speed through turns 15-16. The car bobbled bad there, felt fuel starved, probably lost another 2-3 seconds, but it picked back up, focused getting out of hogpen and onto the front straight smooth and fast. Finally a semi-respectible time of 2:09.491! not bad for not having 3rd. Also, the high speed instability was fixed! scaling was SO off that it must have been tri-poding at speed on the straights! I was hoping to have a go at it again in session 3, but if you notice on the video.. the voltage is at 10V, alternator's not working, or the belt is gone!

UTCC timed session #3 saw me starting 3rd, but unfortunately didnt go anywhere because the battery was completely dead. No second chance to better my time, finally figuring out how to drive without 3rd gear..

So.. My thoughts on the car: unbelievable grip! the brakes are excellent, handling has neutral feel, stable, very predictable, and steering is light and very responsive. With more development I'm positive we can make it a lot faster, just have to work out the mechanical issues that always exist with a brand new racecar.

Just a note on laptimes, best time I have set at VIR was in FFR#85 Enduro Challenge car (aero, 380whp) was a 2:05.0, and my track record in FFR#48 FFR Challenge Spec (320hp) is a 2:06.7. Im positive 818R can easily do 2:04's!
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Old 07-22-2013, 12:42 PM   #1354
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Congratulations on getting the car out on the track! I enjoyed meeting the Factory Five guys -- thanks for giving me a tour of the car. We look forward to building our first one.

Here's a pic I took...



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Old 07-22-2013, 12:44 PM   #1355
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Here are a few things I thought while reading these posts.

1) I See that the 3 speed still cannot handle any real sort of power... great
2) When will they redesign it for the 6 speed?

But in all honestly I know there is more to the problem than it being a subaru gear problem. That being said, I know what its like to be down a gear on track, and it sucks! 2:09 with that power is not a great time, but without a gear I can now understand. Great showing guys!
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Old 07-22-2013, 03:22 PM   #1356
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Not to piss on the parade because I really like this car and I'm excited about possibly owning one, but given that Element Phil's cars are getting down to below 2:00, and that is a car I could see potentially turning my STI into, I'd like to see the 818 get under 2:00. I realize the $ behind getting my car to where Phil's is at is in a different league than the 818, but since I'm already heavily invested in the STI, it's about the same at this point.

The question is, do we think the car can get below 2:00? I would think that we could get the engine to 400+ whp pretty easily (I'm doing it now on a top mount and pump gas), but what about drivability and grip in the RWD format? At these power levels and without electrical traction nannies, it's supposedly pretty hard to keep a RWD car in a straight line. 4wd gives the STI an edge in this regard.

fwiw, I'm not worried about the transmission. The 5 speed with PPG's is reputed to handle ~500 ft-lb if you don't screw up too bad.
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Old 07-22-2013, 03:29 PM   #1357
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Grip was never an issue with this car, especially at speed. There was plenty of down force. Plus, acceleration grip is usually only a concern from a stop or lower speeds. Throttle discipline goes a long ways. With 400 HP the car would probably be under 2:00. Heck at current levels I think the car is a 2:02 car, I think John was being conservative at 2:04.
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Old 07-22-2013, 04:09 PM   #1358
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I don't think I've seen any pictures that really make this clear, but what prevents the 6-speed from fitting in the car? I know it's both longer and bigger around than the 5-speed--is it too long to fit in the back of the car? What does it interfere with?
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Old 07-22-2013, 11:13 PM   #1359
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It hasn't been tested, but there isn't much room between the back of the shift rod and the rear of the car. This car had 340whp. In a car that weighs 1800lbs, that's equivalent to 623 whp in a 2006 STI weighing 3300lbs. Most people can't handle that much power, and it certainly isn't needed for a street driven 818. A lower hp should do just fine as would the 5 speed.
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Old 07-22-2013, 11:19 PM   #1360
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank A View Post
wow- 123 mph through the esses!
I'd be curious to see how much this changes with 150 whp and some aero. I know we had been taking it at 155'ish.

Quote:
Originally Posted by spazegun2213 View Post
Here are a few things I thought while reading these posts.

1) I See that the 3 speed still cannot handle any real sort of power... great

2:09 with that power is not a great time, but without a gear I can now understand. Great showing guys!
Built 5-spds are now standard issue with kits
But realistically, it's their shakedown, though not really. I'm sure they're still making changes and tweaks on their own car, regardless of kits coming out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank A View Post
Not to piss on the parade because I really like this car and I'm excited about possibly owning one, but given that Element Phil's cars are getting down to below 2:00, and that is a car I could see potentially turning my STI into, I'd like to see the 818 get under 2:00. I realize the $ behind getting my car to where Phil's is at is in a different league than the 818, but since I'm already heavily invested in the STI, it's about the same at this point.

The question is, do we think the car can get below 2:00? I would think that we could get the engine to 400+ whp pretty easily (I'm doing it now on a top mount and pump gas), but what about drivability and grip in the RWD format? At these power levels and without electrical traction nannies, it's supposedly pretty hard to keep a RWD car in a straight line. 4wd gives the STI an edge in this regard.

fwiw, I'm not worried about the transmission. The 5 speed with PPG's is reputed to handle ~500 ft-lb if you don't screw up too bad.
I'll agree with Frank to some extent. We took the Turn In Concpets car out last year, on it's first time at the track since MAJOR overhaul (largely my fault ) and we still posted a 1:57.3 with lots of issues. We are leagues apart between the two but my buddies ST2 Z06 still out runs this...and doesn't break gears. Unfortunately I can't say the same. We at our 4th gear in a 6-spd turning in 1:53's on low boost. Once again worlds apart in comparison of the two cars. Heck, we are about twice their weight but about twice the power

Quote:
Originally Posted by mhoward1 View Post
Grip was never an issue with this car, especially at speed. There was plenty of down force. Plus, acceleration grip is usually only a concern from a stop or lower speeds. Throttle discipline goes a long ways. With 400 HP the car would probably be under 2:00. Heck at current levels I think the car is a 2:02 car, I think John was being conservative at 2:04.
I lot plenty of tale happy but it never seemed an issue while on throttle, so I'll agree with that. I'd still LOVE to seem some real aero addressed on this car, some wider tires, a good trans and the whick turned up. It would be an absolute blast, aka scary as hell


Anyone know what they were running for suspension and what diff they had in the car?


Anxious to see what's to come,
Micah
3MI Racing
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Old 07-23-2013, 10:13 AM   #1361
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Originally Posted by Homemade WRX View Post
I'd be curious to see how much this changes with 150 whp and some aero. I know we had been taking it at 155'ish.
Agreed on this point- I'm really looking forward to seeing more metrics on this car- the esses rely significantly on aero, but seeing the numbers for other turns throughout the course as the car gets tuned up will give us a better understanding of its potential.
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Old 07-23-2013, 03:20 PM   #1362
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Originally Posted by Mechie3 View Post
This car had 340whp. In a car that weighs 1800lbs, that's equivalent to 623 whp in a 2006 STI weighing 3300lbs. Most people can't handle that much power, and it certainly isn't needed for a street driven 818. A lower hp should do just fine as would the 5 speed.
Not nitpicking, but the driver needs to be added to the weight when making these calculations as you aren't going anywhere without one person in the car. Without it something light like a kart has incredible power to weight. I did some rough numbers, assuming a 200# driver and a 1900# 818 as that's a much more reasonable figure:

818 best case weight without driver 1800#/340hp = 5.3#/hp
818 with driver 2100#/340hp = 6.2#/hp
818 with more likely power 2100#/300hp = 7#/hp
818 with stock power 2100#/227 = 9.3#/hp

STI 3500#/340hp = 10.3#/hp
STI stock 3500#/300hp = 11.6#/hp
Elie 2200#/190hp = 11.6#/hp
Elise S240 2250#/240hp = 9.4#/lb
NC MX5 2700#/167hp = 16.2#/hp
BRZ 2900#/200hp = 14.5#/hp

A 300hp 818 sounds like a real hoot.
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Old 07-23-2013, 04:05 PM   #1363
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How about the Element STI: 3000#/650hp = 4.6#/hp

Of course these numbers are somewhat subjective- the state of Phil's car changes by the event, and I don't know the weight of the current build, but you get the idea...
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Old 07-23-2013, 04:34 PM   #1364
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowphun View Post
Not nitpicking, but the driver needs to be added to the weight when making these calculations as you aren't going anywhere without one person in the car. Without it something light like a kart has incredible power to weight. I did some rough numbers, assuming a 200# driver and a 1900# 818 as that's a much more reasonable figure:

818 best case weight without driver 1800#/340hp = 5.3#/hp
818 with driver 2100#/340hp = 6.2#/hp
818 with more likely power 2100#/300hp = 7#/hp
818 with stock power 2100#/227 = 9.3#/hp

STI 3500#/340hp = 10.3#/hp
STI stock 3500#/300hp = 11.6#/hp
Elie 2200#/190hp = 11.6#/hp
Elise S240 2250#/240hp = 9.4#/lb
NC MX5 2700#/167hp = 16.2#/hp
BRZ 2900#/200hp = 14.5#/hp

A 300hp 818 sounds like a real hoot.
You'd need to consider power to the *wheels* if you'd like to compute realistic power-to-weight figures for all these cars.
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Old 07-23-2013, 07:44 PM   #1365
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How about the Element STI: 3000#/650hp = 4.6#/hp

Of course these numbers are somewhat subjective- the state of Phil's car changes by the event, and I don't know the weight of the current build, but you get the idea...
Here are some hard numbers from the TIC car. Running 275 A6's (funny that these are skinny tires for the class) on low boost in a barely under 3000lb car, making 540'ish whp ('ish because fueling got changed some) on low boost, we were hitting 1:54.2 before the 6-spd's 4th gear finally gave up.

Running like that, our trap speed off the back straight is down about 10 mph. Drag is really bad at mid 180's. I will wait for the green light to put in the good engine and turbo

Realistically, comparing the Element or TIC car to this is like Apples and Oranges, unless you strictly want to compare weekend track toys. In which case, I'm going to bet that the 818 has much lower consumables
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Old 07-23-2013, 08:11 PM   #1366
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Let's also recall a portion of the goal for the 818 is affordable. Specs wise we compare it to much more expensive cars, sure. But the 818 looks like it will be more affordable in every aspect then any of the comparison cars mentioned so far. An actual affordable track car that really feels like a special race specific open cockpit race car at...~17k or so?

Fun fun fun.
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Old 07-23-2013, 10:23 PM   #1367
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A couple more pics:


GC Impreza included for scale.





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Old 07-24-2013, 08:16 AM   #1368
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Anyone know how tall the driver is in these pics? I thought the rollover protection for most clubs was 2" between the top of the bar and the top of the helmet? If there's no structural windshield then the forward measurement point is the top of the fenders, and in the picture above it doesn't look like it would pass.
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Old 07-24-2013, 11:22 AM   #1369
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John is about 5"11 to 6'
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Old 07-24-2013, 12:06 PM   #1370
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Let's also recall a portion of the goal for the 818 is affordable. Specs wise we compare it to much more expensive cars, sure. But the 818 looks like it will be more affordable in every aspect then any of the comparison cars mentioned so far. An actual affordable track car that really feels like a special race specific open cockpit race car at...~17k or so?

Fun fun fun.
That was more or less my point.

I think you can make a subie run that fast for the same money but consumables on this will still be lower.

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Old 07-24-2013, 12:57 PM   #1371
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The biggest issue I see is getting this thing classed where it will actually compete against production cars. What good is it if you get placed against all the A-mod cars? This is supposed to be a "production" kit car. If I bought a car like this it would be for one purpose (since I can't DD it reasonably like I can a true production car that's race prepped/stripped): competing in actual race events and winning
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Old 07-24-2013, 01:10 PM   #1372
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Nasa Str-3
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Old 07-24-2013, 01:21 PM   #1373
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Nevermind, missed the R in str3 haha

Last edited by Homemade WRX; 07-24-2013 at 01:31 PM.
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Old 07-24-2013, 03:44 PM   #1374
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what else drives in str-3? I'm not familiar with the typical competitors
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Old 07-24-2013, 04:00 PM   #1375
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STR1 & STR3
Any closed wheel/fendered racecar, that complies with all NASA safety requirements in the
CCR, and all of the applicable restrictions and limitations listed below in 7.2 and 7.3 is eligible
to compete based on the “Adjusted Weight/Power Ratios” below:
Super Touring R1 (STR1) = “Adjusted Wt/Hp Ratio” equal to, or greater than, 5.50:1
Super Touring R3 (STR3) = “Adjusted Wt/Hp Ratio” equal to, or greater than, 9.0:1
Performance enhancing and chassis/body/aero modifications are otherwise unlimited.

So you see a lot of tube frame cars like Lotus 7 kits, Modified Legends and Thunder Roadsters, Cobra Kit cars, Panoz GTS WC, Toyota World Challenge, and a whole host of tube framed kit cars.

There is also the ability to request a bump to ST2 which would be fairly stock Corvettes, Evo's, STi's etc.
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