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Old 02-22-2011, 01:29 PM   #126
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Originally Posted by Beaverboy View Post



Removing the turbo lag factor from the power delivery when driving a balanced car like this at the limit is what makes the 6 cylinder so much more intriguing to me.
I agree. Just give me a 260 HP 6 that doesn't weigh too much.
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Old 02-22-2011, 05:10 PM   #127
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I want the original Lancia Stratos... even if it's in replica form. I look into the company that built the one that they had on Top Gear but it uses a lot of different parts from older Fiats, Lancias, and Alfas which would be a PITA to source in the US. There needs to be a cheaper, easier alternative than that
I totally agree. A Stratos Replica would be very welcome.
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Old 02-22-2011, 05:17 PM   #128
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Originally Posted by REX8 View Post
That saying only works for engines having relatively even horsepower numbers. As in, a 5.0l engine making 250 HP is likely going to have a much larger powerband than a 2.0l turbo or hihg-revving powerplant making the same power.

And, considering the very light-weight nature of this car, giving up some off-idle power for improved midrange and top end power seems to make even more sense.
So, your point is that you'd rather have less low end torque if it means you can have more mid and top end power by using a turbo 2L?

That's an understandable trade-off, but not one everyone would take. Some people would rather have the additional low end power without lag and don't care if they have 300+ hp.

There's not much point in arguing which is better. Unless one setup makes more power everywhere, each will have it's advantages.
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Old 02-22-2011, 05:22 PM   #129
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There's not much point in arguing which is better. Unless one setup makes more power everywhere, each will have it's advantages.
I certainly wasn't trying to argue. Everyone can have their preference.

That being said, off-idle/low end power is GREAT in a daily driver. Likewise, top-end power less useful around town.

In a weekend toy with sporting intentions, however, it would seem like a better mid-high end makes more sense for most users.

That being said, I'm a huge N/A sports-car fan.

Last edited by REX8; 02-22-2011 at 05:33 PM.
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Old 02-22-2011, 08:05 PM   #130
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A little math and the cams sent off to Delta for a regrind.. some custom headers.. custom individual throttle bodies and I'm sure you'd have a track-worthy powerband.
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Old 02-23-2011, 12:49 PM   #131
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It will likely be less safe than virtually any other car on the road
I used to ride around in a citroen 2cv growing up. Probably not that great in a frontal impact test.
My parents used to put me in the back of a 1979 mazda rx7 on occasion for the trip home. Times have changed...

Safety is relative. You could get hit by a bus tomorrow. No one will force you to buy this car. I would reccomend buying a Volvo wagon - seems about your speed. But didn't you say that you ride a bike? Confused.

Some of you are missing the point here - it's supposed to be the most FUN thing to drive, not the most practical and safe. Comparing it to a Subaru is like apples and oranges - the only thing they will have in common is the drivetrain.

Last edited by drifter dave; 02-26-2011 at 05:52 PM. Reason: Snowphun is a douchebag
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Old 02-23-2011, 01:38 PM   #132
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beaverboy View Post
A little math and the cams sent off to Delta for a regrind.. some custom headers.. custom individual throttle bodies and I'm sure you'd have a track-worthy powerband.
Godo to hear. I must say, I'm not up on my Suby N/A knowledge, as far as what is possible to bring out of them.
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Old 02-23-2011, 02:20 PM   #133
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Originally Posted by drifter dave View Post
Safety is relative. You could get hit by a bus tomorrow. No one will force you to buy this car. I would reccomend buying a Volvo wagon - seems about your speed. But didn't you say that you ride a bike? Confused.
Your comprehension skills. They suck.
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Old 02-24-2011, 01:08 PM   #134
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Talking something like this would be nice :)

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Old 02-24-2011, 01:19 PM   #135
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Put some normal doors on that and hot damn


Even so... what goes a gtr have to do with this?

Last edited by todeswalzer; 02-24-2011 at 01:36 PM.
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Old 02-24-2011, 01:41 PM   #136
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nothing. I just happen to like the way it looks. It's mid-engined and it kinds looks like what they were already leaning toward on the FFR site.
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Old 02-24-2011, 03:56 PM   #137
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If it looks like that, and has a non fagstick door option, I want 2.
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Old 02-25-2011, 01:15 PM   #138
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there is also something like this, if they are looking to just do a roadster.



I really like their 33 Hot Rod, if I had the money I would build one with the new Boss302 motor.

FFR has a lot of experience of building component cars, from Cobras to GTM, and the 33. I look forward to what they come up with. If they come up with a roadster design, I hope they have a removable hardtop option as well.
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Old 02-25-2011, 02:13 PM   #139
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Two requests:

Don't **** up the styling, keep it simple.

Try not to sacrifice the handling too much by relying on the Subaru's exisiting points.
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Old 02-25-2011, 02:43 PM   #140
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I don't think they should use Subaru suspension anyway.

Why mess with rear MacPherson struts?

They could just use the WRX's engine, engine management, a converted 2WD subaru transaxle, and inner axle CV joints.

The rest of the suspension could be custom, and properly double-wishbone with coil over shocks.

They could use the suspension from their other GTM mid-engined car, and the better brakes, and more common 5x114.3/4.5inch hubs, rather than rare 5x100 bolt pattern for RWD offsets.

Subaru equipment should be the affordable drivetrain. If it is a sports car with completely different chassis layout from the engine donor car, it should have better suspension, too.

And the Tommy Kaira ZZR body is a great idea. That was a slick mid-engined car that isn't widely known. They could use front side windows similar to the SVX.
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Old 02-25-2011, 02:49 PM   #141
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Originally Posted by HipToBeSquare View Post
I don't think they should use Subaru suspension anyway.

Why mess with rear MacPherson struts?

They could just use the WRX's engine, engine management, a converted 2WD subaru transaxle, and inner axle CV joints.

The rest of the suspension could be custom, and properly double-wishbone with coil over shocks.

They could use the suspension from their other GTM mid-engined car, and the better brakes, and more common 5x114.3/4.5inch hubs, rather than rare 5x100 bolt pattern for RWD offsets.

Subaru equipment should be the affordable drivetrain. If it is a sports car with completely different chassis layout from the engine donor car, it should have better suspension, too.

And the Tommy Kaira ZZR body is a great idea. That was a slick mid-engined car that isn't widely known. They could use front side windows similar to the SVX.
At $10k, I just don't see how that could be the case.

The Cobra is what, $14k now? That comes with a new front suspension design, but uses much of the donor in the rear.

Not sure where they are taking $4k off the price (no fiberglass body is one, maybe) as it is, but for $10k, I'd say they're going to use more of the donor than we'd like.

By the same token, no way is it going to be anything other than 5x100, retaining the ability to use the donor brakes, wheels, etc.
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Old 02-25-2011, 03:11 PM   #142
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That will be a big disappointment.

What sort of properly wide and lower offset 5x100 wheels are there? The Fiero has that problem as well, with FWD-converted 5x100 PCD, and non-optimized suspension. At least Pontiac sorted some of the suspension issues for 1988, just before they kyboshed the whole thing.

I was going to pen out some plans for a slightly stretched fiero space-frame, with a Subaru engine and converted RWD transaxle. With this news, I was hoping FFR was going to make it even easier than that.

Why would they use something as heavy as Subaru front brakes on the rear of a lighter car?

It won't need steering either, although perhaps those bolt points on the uprights just for toe-adjustment rods.

Cobras can charge 14K, because people want them. There may be some profit margin built in there. The front suspension on the Cobra has to be more robust than a mid-engined car, also, which could be fairly simple Mustang II SLA coil-over with tubular control arms, and basic un-driven front hubs... but that would be 5x4.5 PCD, not 5x100, and it would be a waste to use Subaru hubs on the front, only to block them up.

Why would one want to use Subaru high offset OE-sized wheels on a mid-engined RWD car? The rear track can be wider without trouble, and the front end doesn't require such high offset to counter for thicker front-driven hubs. Plus it could fit staggered width wheel fitments, since it won't be AWD.

Using the Subaru suspension doesn't make any sense, and would be far too kludged-together. The Subaru front suspension is needlessly compact and complicated for rear suspension use, and a mid-engined car's front suspension can afford to be even simpler, only to handle suspension, braking, and steering.

If the suspension on this thing is kludged, then there is no point to the car. the cost savings should be had elsewhere. If the thing doesn't handle the way a mid-engined car can handle, then why bother building the thing in the first place?
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Old 02-25-2011, 03:33 PM   #143
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That will be a big disappointment.

What sort of properly wide and lower offset 5x100 wheels are there? The Fiero has that problem as well, with FWD-converted 5x100 PCD, and non-optimized suspension.
You never fail to miss the point. They're trying to build an 1800# car, you're upset about the lack of wide wheels to put on it? A 7" wheel can easily do a 225 tire, and there are much wider wheels available. Big wheels and big tires = heavy, it's already a pipe dream that this thing will be 1800#.

I can take comfort in the fact that FFR does not approach their projects with your logic.
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Old 02-25-2011, 03:47 PM   #144
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Well my 5x100 wrx has proper +44 17x9s on it and there are tons of 5x100 options in 17x9 or 18x9.5. I'd assume there's even 15x8 or 15x9s out there if you look hard enough... but I never wanted any so I never looked.


if you really want 5x114 so bad just do a hub conversion kit on it or maybe even sti swap it....shouldn't be too hard really.
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Old 02-25-2011, 03:53 PM   #145
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Missed the point? How about this point...

Look at the wheel choices available in that PCD. They are almost all 35-55mm positive offset. Almost exclusively VW or Subaru fitment, and are generally considered to be FWD offset, because FWD cars require thicker hubs that can accommodate CV joint axis at the steering axis. (and subarus DO drive the front wheels most of the time, but also the rear wheels too)

Why have such a highly positive offset on a RWD car, that can support wheels nearer to zero offset?

The wheels can be made lighter if they aren't so highly offset to one side. The wheels have to be stronger to not flex or bend if they are highly positive, or highly negative offset. The rim of the wheel has to be thicker to not deform on the side that doesn't have spoke support. If the spokes are toward the center, both the inner and outer edges of the wheel are half the distance away from the spoke support plane than a wheel that has spokes on only one side of the wheel.

A near-zero offset wheel can be lighter for the given size and load rating, even if the wheel width is 7 inches, and the load rating is the corner-weight of a 2000lb car.

Plus the fact that 5x4.5, otherwise known as 5x114.3 is much more common to find wheels built for, increases the selection of wheels to choose from, including smaller diameter, or narrower width sports car wheels. Even 4x4.5 is more common to find classic sports car wheels, than 5x100.

It is a bear to try and find good fitment and light-as-possible wheels for a 5x100 high offset Subaru as it is, and most of those options are for NEW subarus which are going to 18 inches in diameter, and 8 inches wide, or HEAVY cast OE wheels, more than one of which I have seen pictures of broken examples.

if you want light weight, especially forged aluminum wheels, the best bet would be to have the car set up for near-zero offset, or slightly positive, but less than 35mm, and to have a more common 4x4.5, or 5x4.5 PCD, so you can CHOOSE what wheel you fit.

Plus, if anyone puts a tuned STI motor, a healthy EZ36, or EG33 engine in this car, they are going to want MUCH wider than 7" wide rear tires, even if the car doesn't weigh all that much overall.

Saddling this car with OE base impreza, or even stock WRX wheels is going to be a down-side.

HOW'S THAT FOR A POINT, or several.
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Old 02-25-2011, 03:58 PM   #146
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You typed all that, and its all good.

...But all I really need to type is....

...Wheel bearings...
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Old 02-25-2011, 03:59 PM   #147
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and that.

Good point.
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Old 02-25-2011, 04:05 PM   #148
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Yeah.

If you run a 0 offset wheel you'll be replacing them once a week.

and if you auto x the car you better bring a press to the track cause you'll be replacing the bearings in between runs....

So unless they design their own hubs and bearings for a low offset application I'd stick with my previous post.
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Old 02-25-2011, 04:05 PM   #149
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Missed the point? How about this point...

Look at the wheel choices available in that PCD. They are almost all 35-55mm positive offset. Almost exclusively VW or Subaru fitment, and are generally considered to be FWD offset, because FWD cars require thicker hubs that can accommodate CV joint axis at the steering axis. (and subarus DO drive the front wheels most of the time, but also the rear wheels too)

Why have such a highly positive offset on a RWD car, that can support wheels nearer to zero offset?

The wheels can be made lighter if they aren't so highly offset to one side. The wheels have to be stronger to not flex or bend if they are highly positive, or highly negative offset. The rim of the wheel has to be thicker to not deform on the side that doesn't have spoke support. If the spokes are toward the center, both the inner and outer edges of the wheel are half the distance away from the spoke support plane than a wheel that has spokes on only one side of the wheel.

A near-zero offset wheel can be lighter for the given size and load rating, even if the wheel width is 7 inches, and the load rating is the corner-weight of a 2000lb car.

Plus the fact that 5x4.5, otherwise known as 5x114.3 is much more common to find wheels built for, increases the selection of wheels to choose from, including smaller diameter, or narrower width sports car wheels. Even 4x4.5 is more common to find classic sports car wheels, than 5x100.

It is a bear to try and find good fitment and light-as-possible wheels for a 5x100 high offset Subaru as it is, and most of those options are for NEW subarus which are going to 18 inches in diameter, and 8 inches wide, or HEAVY cast OE wheels, more than one of which I have seen pictures of broken examples.

if you want light weight, especially forged aluminum wheels, the best bet would be to have the car set up for near-zero offset, or slightly positive, but less than 35mm, and to have a more common 4x4.5, or 5x4.5 PCD, so you can CHOOSE what wheel you fit.

Plus, if anyone puts a tuned STI motor, a healthy EZ36, or EG33 engine in this car, they are going to want MUCH wider than 7" wide rear tires, even if the car doesn't weigh all that much overall.

Saddling this car with OE base impreza, or even stock WRX wheels is going to be a down-side.

HOW'S THAT FOR A POINT, or several.
You're making a big deal about the wheel offset. My M3 runs 40mm up front, mid 20s in the rear. 35-45 is just fine. Most E36 and E46 RWD cars are running 40mm.

You're talking about the wheel offset like it's such a damn big deal. Why? They'll fit the body to the track of the car, whatever the offset. If there's room under the fenders, you can run spacers if you want.

Anyway, stop having a cow over wheel offsets. Plenty of companies will make whatever wheels you want. That is a VERY small part of the overall car.

Staggered setups? With 50/50 weight (hopefully), why do we want staggered setups again? If you want it, and the wheels aren't made staggered, have them made just how you'd like.


I'm also questioning your position in general:

We're all excited that they are saying $10k.

You say, it's gonna suck if they use anything but just the drivetrain.

Fine, but you can't have it both ways. If you don't mind a $15-20k kit, maybe you'd get some of your wishes.

A HUGE factor in these projects is how extensively a donor car can be used. If they're only using the drivetrain, they'd pick a different donor. Doesn't make any sense to offer a kit that only uses an engine. They're not in the business of providing rollers. Well, they do, but they charge for it, and their primary business is base kits.




It's a DIY kit car for a shadetree mechanic. No one gives a damn if you can save a couple lbs per corner by running a different bolt pattern. Or that the front hubs could be lighter. That is not what thsi car is about. It is about being cheap, easy, and entertaining.

Last edited by REX8; 02-25-2011 at 04:19 PM.
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Old 02-25-2011, 04:09 PM   #150
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Yeah.

If you run a 0 offset wheel you'll be replacing them once a week.
Oh come on, the car weighs 1800 lbs.
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