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Old 02-25-2011, 04:20 PM   #151
todeswalzer
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I know, but were talking subaru bearings here.....wrx bearings at that
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Old 02-25-2011, 04:20 PM   #152
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Hip:

You're essentially asking them to make you an Ultima GTR or Nobel for $10k? (again, you said donor for drivetrain only)

In what world do you think that is even remotely possible?
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Old 02-25-2011, 04:34 PM   #153
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You're making a big deal about the wheel offset. My M3 runs 40mm up front, mid 20s in the rear. 35-45 is just fine. Most E36 and E46 RWD cars are running 40mm.
Mid-20s is probably better. The higher offset in the front is a compromise to widen the front suspension, while keeping the suspension arms long enough not to radically change geometry through the suspension motion.

Quote:
You're talking about the wheel offset like it's such a damn big deal. Why? They'll fit the body to the track of the car, whatever the offset. If there's room under the fenders, you can run spacers if you want.
You can't run spacers to reduce offset of the wheels, unless you DRASTICALLY widen the fenders. Plus there are handling aspects to the ratio between the front and rear track widths.

Most spacers are used to fit high positive offset wheels to hubs that are set for lower offset wheels, because high offset wheels are more common since the advent of most cars going FWD.

Quote:
Anyway, stop having a cow over wheel offsets. Plenty of companies will make whatever wheels you want. That is a VERY small part of the overall car.

Staggered setups? With 50/50 weight (hopefully), why do we want staggered setups again?
You were just talking about staggered setups for BMW. The traction needed for the powered rear wheels are different than the traction needed for the front wheels under braking and steering, and the front wheel offset is more sensitive to aligning the center of the tire over the kingpin axis and the steering center at the ground surface, to reduce scrub radius. Narrower tires at the front, with still enough width for braking traction helps keep the steering light.

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I'm also questioning your sanity in general:

We're all excited that they are saying $10k.

You say, it's gonna suck if they use anythign put just the drivetrain.

Fine, but you can't have it both ways. If you don't mind a $15-20k kit, maybe you'd get some of your wishes.

A HUGE factor in these projects is how extensively a donor car can be used. If they're only using the drivetrain, they'd pick a different donor. Doesn't make any sense to offer a kit that only uses an engine. They're not in the business of providing rollers. Well, they do, but they charge for it, and their primary business is base kits.

It's a DIY kit car for a shadetree mechanic. No one gives a damn if you can save a couple lbs per corner by running a different bolt pattern. Or that the front hubs could be lighter. That is not what thsi car is about. It is about being cheap, easy, and entertaining.
Cheap easy and entertaining?

Why not just buy a used fiero for a couple grand.

Why not just buy a used MR2 for a couple grand more.

IF one is going to the effort of BUILDING a car, it is because standard mass produced cars have many more concessions and compromises than a fabricated car.

Why bother building a car, if the main kit parts cost 10K, the drivetrain another 5, and probably at least 10-15K in interior finishing, paint, and other finishing supplies/parts, and or engine tuning.

That's 25-30K, counting the shade-tree mechanic's labor as free.

For that much money, you could get a used early Porsche Cayman, or a whole lot of other used performance cars that you can drive the instant you get the key.

Why build something if it isn't going to end up BETTER and more specifically ideal, than a mass produced car?

Why spend the money, and a LOT of time hassling with building something if the effects are less than just buying a used performance car that was built in a factory?

If fabricated tube SLA suspension built to ideal specs for the systematic configuration of this car, instead of kludging up something that wasn't designed for it, is too difficult for a KIT CAR manufacturer, then why bother?

CAD design, and CNC manufacturing have come a long way, and is making custom fabrication much more affordable, anyway, for the likes of shops like FFR.

Why should a customer have to re-engineer a kit car platform to be ideal, just to make it work well, and handle well. If it can't offer that in the design of the kit's chassis and suspension, why not just buy a better used factory built sports car?
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Old 02-25-2011, 04:46 PM   #154
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Hip:

You're essentially asking them to make you an Ultima GTR or Nobel for $10k? (again, you said donor for drivetrain only)

In what world do you think that is even remotely possible?
No.

Most Ultima GTRs are turn-key, as well as most Rossion Q1s, which used to be Noble. A lot of that cost goes into bespoke parts and the labor to build those cars by paid professionals.

They also are much more advanced CroMoly tubular spaceframes with sanctioned and approved roll cage structures, and usually CF and other high-end composite bodies, and highly tuned V8 or modified turbocharged V6 engines.

I am not asking for them to make anything, other than a competent, fabricated sports car chassis with quality sports car suspension that is set up for the specifications of the car. Subaru awd economy-car-based suspension is not the same as SLA sports car suspension. I know the difference, I have both in my garage. That is not to say that Subaru suspension doesn't work... but it is built and calibrated for different reasons, and a different layout than a purpose built mid-engined sports car.

It would cost more, and might not even be completely feasible to modify and correct the subaru suspension components to behave properly in a different layout, with different demands and different weight considerations, than to just use well chosen donor parts from other sports cars, rather than Subaru suspension parts, and some fabricated pieces like control arms.

FFR aren't even assembling or finishing the car, where Ultima and Rossion usually are, since most of them are built and sold as turn-key cars.

They could use off-the-shelf parts from other cars, without braking the bank. They could use rear hubs from C4 or newer Corvette, they could use front hubs from Mustang II, which is a common hot-rod setup with LOTS of aftermarket, they could use standard-type brakes with commonly used pads, and discs from a RWD sports car source, such as an RX7, or even Miata, or something. They could use commonly available coil-over shocks that are much cheaper than MacPherson or Chapman struts, They could use all sorts of off-the-shelf parts to keep the costs in check, and fabricating suspension arms and shock attachment points is not more complicated than fabricating the rest of the custom chassis.

There are sources for good parts other than Subaru suspension parts. Subaru is a good source for an interesting, robust, and well designed ENGINE, and possibly a modified 2WD version of the Subaru transaxle, which companies already do for dune buggy and other VW-based kit-cars with Subaru transplanted engines.

Subaru is a great source for engine components. Not the best available source for performance suspension components, and this is after-all supposed to end up as a competent sports car.

Last edited by HipToBeSquare; 02-25-2011 at 04:55 PM.
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Old 02-25-2011, 04:58 PM   #155
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Hip: they haven't even announced the details of the suspension yet. They might have something up their sleeves. You should probably post your concerns over at the factory five forums if you haven't already, they might have the answers you want.

This is supposed to be an entry level car for them. That means a single donor car to keep things real cheap and easy. They have said the target cost is under $15k for a complete car. I don't see how they can do anything but the stock WRX suspension design for that kind of money. I'm not saying your points aren't valid, but they have to compromise somewhere if they're going to keep the cost down. They already have the GTM supercar which has it's own custom suspension design and uses multiple donor cars to get the most "ideal" parts for every aspect of the car. Maybe that's what you're looking for. It's also possible that they could design a different suspension setup at some point and offer it for those who want it, like they do with the roadster IRS option.
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Old 02-25-2011, 05:02 PM   #156
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Hip: they haven't even announced the details of the suspension yet. They might have something up their sleeves. You should probably post your concerns over at the factory five forums if you haven't already, they might have the answers you want.

This is supposed to be an entry level car for them. That means a single donor car to keep things real cheap and easy. They have said the target cost is under $15k for a complete car. I don't see how they can do anything but the stock WRX suspension design for that kind of money. I'm not saying your points aren't valid, but they have to compromise somewhere if they're going to keep the cost down. They already have the GTM supercar which has it's own custom suspension design and uses multiple donor cars to get the most "ideal" parts for every aspect of the car. Maybe that's what you're looking for.
From what Dave Smith has said on the FFForums it seems like the front suspension with be FFR and the rear suspension may be transferred from the donor. I think they have a good idea of what they want to do with the car, but are still working out the details. Either way he specifically stated that performance will not be compromised.
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Old 02-25-2011, 05:05 PM   #157
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Can we at least wait until Tues when they release more details of the design before we start arguing? LOL.

They've already said no struts in the front at least.
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Old 02-25-2011, 05:07 PM   #158
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Originally Posted by spaceywilly View Post
Hip: they haven't even announced the details of the suspension yet. They might have something up their sleeves. You should probably post your concerns over at the factory five forums if you haven't already, they might have the answers you want.

This is supposed to be an entry level car for them. That means a single donor car to keep things real cheap and easy. They have said the target cost is under $15k for a complete car. I don't see how they can do anything but the stock WRX suspension design for that kind of money. I'm not saying your points aren't valid, but they have to compromise somewhere if they're going to keep the cost down. They already have the GTM supercar which has it's own custom suspension design and uses multiple donor cars to get the most "ideal" parts for every aspect of the car. Maybe that's what you're looking for. It's also possible that they could design a different suspension setup at some point and offer it for those who want it, like they do with the roadster IRS option.
Maybe so...

But will the GTM chassis fit a boxer engine? I don't want the same SBC that every other custom vehicle in the universe seems to have. Fine for people who want that... I want something more unique, and I really like boxer engines.

And I don't really like the GT-40 rip-off body that the GTM has, either. It isn't accurate enough to be a replica, and isn't original enough to have it's own credibility to stand on, and the roof is oddly shaped, almost like it is sagging.

I'd rather build a Gardner Douglas T70 Lola replica with a boxer engine instead of the SBC... or if I have to use a V8... I'd rather use the Coyote Ford 5.0 with the Boss 302 upgrades... but that is a dream-build. if I were going to put it in a car with a roof, I would choose something more along the lines of an actual GT-40 replica.

If I were looking for cheap and easy, I would just buy a nice example of an SW20 MR2. Cheap, and VERY easy... as in, just get in, turn the key, and DRIVE kind of easy. That kind of easy can forgive the lack of a boxer engine, and 10-15K can get a really nice example, and a new paint job, and a lot of other freshening up.

The effort and money to custom build a car would have to have technical pay-offs beyond the alternative of just buying an MR2, or saving up a bit and buying a used Boxster or Cayman.

Last edited by HipToBeSquare; 02-25-2011 at 05:12 PM.
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Old 02-25-2011, 08:07 PM   #159
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Originally Posted by HipToBeSquare View Post
HOW'S THAT FOR A POINT, or several.
Yes, you still completely miss the point of this car. Apparently at the $15k price point it is too cheap for you given the likely compromises. If they instead made it more expensive you'd complain that it is too pricey, just like most cars that come through this forum and you bitch about.
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Old 02-26-2011, 12:11 AM   #160
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Originally Posted by HipToBeSquare View Post
And I don't really like the GT-40 rip-off body that the GTM has, either. It isn't accurate enough to be a replica, and isn't original enough to have it's own credibility to stand on, and the roof is oddly shaped, almost like it is sagging.
It's not like FFR commissioned Pininfarina or Bertone to design it for them...

Honestly, though, I do wonder what designs are going to come out of this competition. In thinking it over, I'm not very excited about it being a roadster. There are much prettier and more functional coupes when you talk about the history of mid-engine car designs, as opposed to front engine cars.

Just another image to fuel everyone's brains. Here's the original Bertone Lancia Zero:
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Old 02-26-2011, 01:19 PM   #161
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I tend to agree. As cool as a roadster would be, I think a Targa roof / T-tops would be better from an aesthetics / function (integrated roll hoop) point of view, especially for a mid/rear engined car.
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Old 02-26-2011, 03:49 PM   #162
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Hip, don't say I agree with a single point you're attempting to make.

Nothing Factory Five makes is "better" than a production car. And certainly not their CHEAPEST kit offering (this car). So, it's abundantly clear you should be looking elsewhere.

Perhaps this thread isn't the best place for you. Maybe go start another one? Requesting someone build you a rolling, competent chassis and body for $10k.

P.S. Just about every tracked BMW switches to a square setup. It's the easiest way to dial out the understeer and increase tire life. It would be far from awful if you had to run square on your $10k kit car with 50/50 w.d.
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Old 02-26-2011, 03:52 PM   #163
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Originally Posted by HipToBeSquare View Post

The effort and money to custom build a car would have to have technical pay-offs beyond the alternative of just buying an MR2, or saving up a bit and buying a used Boxster or Cayman.
For you, fine, so this is not the place for you.

Some of us would sacrifice a bit of handling for the pride and fun of the build (as opposed to the "effort" you described.

More importantly, $15k in a boxster doesn't get you ANYWHERE near the performance that this 1800 lb. 230 HP would (at least in some areas), so stop that BS argument right there. Plus, and again, there is no pride, or fun build associated with buying a 10 year old boxster.
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Old 02-26-2011, 07:44 PM   #164
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It depends on if you prefer building it, or driving it.

I like both... but each have to be worth it.

If buying gets better driving, it is hard to say that building for less driving quality is a better proposition.

If building gets less compromise, and better, as well as custom results, then building is very much worth it.

If we are talking about hobby. It isn't really feasible to consider building a car for a daily driver in the slush and the muck and bad weather. All the hard work gets corroded away faster that way, and more time, effort, and money have to go into keeping it up, compared to a produced car that is galvanized and coated in a factory.

If all you are into is building, and driving doesn't make any difference at all, you might as well build sculptures, or intricate scale models. No problem with that, and they stay better preserved as artwork.

It is hard to argue with the value proposition of spending a few thousand dollars on a nice fiero, or a nice MR2. You can still customize it, and take pride in that work.

Building from the ground up should have more specifically tailored, and more effective results, with less compromise, not more compromise.

There is pride in having and enjoying a nice car, and keeping it as such, whether it is built or purchased. The pride in it might be different, but not negated.

I was fine until you suggested where I should or should not be. Frankly, I am getting very sick and tired of people telling me where my place isn't, and what automotive topics I can talk about on an automotive forum, just because I might happen to have a differing opinion. My opinion is no less valid than yours, and the facts haven't yet been released.

Telling me to go away is bad manners, and an insult. I am just discussing cars here, not telling anyone else to go away, or where their place may or may not be. I am not even telling people that they MUST agree with me. I am just making a case for the opinion that I have about the topic of the thread. I thought that was what this sort of venue was for. It wouldn't be the first time I was wrong about NASIOC's attitude toward open discussion.

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Old 02-26-2011, 11:05 PM   #165
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HipToBeSquare, aren't you satisfied killing the Subaru Coup thread? Must you come here and spew your verbal(typographical) diarrhea and ruin another perfectly good thread?
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Old 02-27-2011, 12:17 AM   #166
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I don't know, we shall see how it turns out.

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Old 02-27-2011, 12:31 AM   #167
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Why on earth would anyone want to hear anything from a guy who spews nonsense. Opinions are like arseholes, everybody has one and some people think you're putting yours out there too much.
Pretty much how I feel everytime I see a thread update and his name lol.
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Old 02-27-2011, 02:56 AM   #168
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Hip, I agree with some of your statements and disagree with others, but support and encourage your input. You explain your thinking with logical and coherent posts.

Regarding the production cars you mention as alternatives to building a less than optimal kit car, they are all significantly heavier than the target weight of the new FFR car. SW20's are what, 2600 lbs? I'm not too familiar with them, but if that is in the ballpark, it's a world away from 1800. The Mk III is 2200 lbs according to wikipedia, which is still 400 lbs heavier.

Given that the other FFR cars seem to be quite successful as far as kit cars go, I think they'll make pretty good choices on this one. But who knows, maybe they'll cut the wrong corners and it'll flop. But considering that they seem to be seeking quite a bit of input from the community, maybe your opinion will actually count for something.
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Old 02-27-2011, 10:34 AM   #169
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I agree with Hip that my 1st thought was, damn, I hope they don't saddle this thing with the WRX suspension, as it really would hinder its abilities to make it a serious track car (around town, I'm sure it would feel just fine to 99% of people).

Then again, if the announcement said it was going to cost $20k, I wouldn't have been as excited about it in the first place.

You simply can't have your cake and eat it too.

Frankly, I'd be THRILLED if that price included a-arms up front and a stock WRX setup in the rear.
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Old 02-27-2011, 10:37 AM   #170
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And Hip, if it does, they'll need to provide new front uprights anyway. Which just makes it harder to believe that their going to change the front suspension/knuckles/hubs and have this thing only cost $10k. If their other cars are any indication, that's not the case.

Then again, I'm not sure how much they're saving on the body. Could be quite a lot if this thing looked like an Atom or something, paneled without the need for a laid-up glass body.
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Old 02-27-2011, 02:41 PM   #171
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It's already been stated by FFR that it will have proper wishbones up front. That alone will not kill the budget of the kit. Miata and (repro) Mustang II spindles (with custom hubs) are not expensive (not that FFR will use either).

Also, converting a WRX front knucle/spindle to use upper/lower control arms in the rear is also not hard or expensive. (they have not said anything about the back yet)

I am curious about brakes. If they do indeed move the front assembly to the back, the brakes are way over sized for the task. I think a stronger possibility might be leaving fronts and rears in place and using custom axles. This also shouldn't break the bank if FFR can buy the needed axles in bulk.

Either way, we should know more on Tuesday.
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Old 02-27-2011, 04:07 PM   #172
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I will obey the forum rules
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Old 02-27-2011, 04:10 PM   #173
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Default Can we get a separate forum for the FFR WRX kit?

Can we get a separate forum for the FFR WRX kit? I would love for NASIOC to be the "home forum" for this kit. There is soooo much knowledge here already it would be a shame to waste it and dilute this forum by pulling people away instead of adding more people. I know that having all those mustang experts on the Cobra Forum made everybodies kits 100% better than they would have been.
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Old 02-27-2011, 07:04 PM   #174
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Can we get a separate forum for the FFR WRX kit? I would love for NASIOC to be the "home forum" for this kit. There is soooo much knowledge here already it would be a shame to waste it and dilute this forum by pulling people away instead of adding more people. I know that having all those mustang experts on the Cobra Forum made everybodies kits 100% better than they would have been.

Kinda like that idea.
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Old 02-27-2011, 07:06 PM   #175
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Kinda like that idea.
I think the powers (power) that be will allow it when it's released.
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